• Chinese billionaire arrested for crossing 'red line' of political activism
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[url]http://behindthewall.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/10/21/21065363-chinese-billionaire-arrested-for-crossing-red-line-of-political-activism?lite[/url] [QUOTE] BEIJING – In a crackdown on dissent ahead of a crucial Communist Party gathering next month, Chinese authorities on Sunday formally arrested a billionaire venture capitalist who has turned his wealth toward supporting human rights issues. The detention of Wang Gongquan, who was held on suspicion of disturbing public order, sends a strong signal that China’s new leadership will not tolerate any member of the rising entrepreneurial elite using their resources to agitate for democratic reform. ...Wang was first seized by the police last month for questioning on suspicion of trying to “gather a crowd to disrupt order in public places.” The arrest order paves the way for the filing of criminal charges and a court trial. Wang is known to be a supporter of the New Citizens Movement, a loose association of professionals and other urbanites advocating free speech and other rights enshrined in China’s constitution. The group, which occasionally organizes dinners to discuss national issues, is also calling for greater government transparency and disclosure of officials’ assets.[/QUOTE] Free markets leads to free people. Even North Korea's getting better.
Wow, I was expecting him to be some kind of oil lobbyist or something. Nope... he was actually supporting the people. Goes to show you can't judge things by your expectations.
China can't maintain a single party state whilst encouraging the development of free enterprise and trade. Sooner or later, they will have to give ground.
[QUOTE=Rangergxi;42604205]Even North Korea's getting better.[/QUOTE] let's not get ahead of ourselves now. [url]http://www.nknews.org/2013/09/are-human-rights-really-improving-in-north-korea/[/url]
[QUOTE=Rangergxi;42604205][url]http://behindthewall.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/10/21/21065363-chinese-billionaire-arrested-for-crossing-red-line-of-political-activism?lite[/url] Free markets leads to free people. Even North Korea's getting better.[/QUOTE] really, a free market narrative? france is far less free-market than the UAE, but you tell me which one has more free people.
[QUOTE=Wizards Court;42605014]let's not get ahead of ourselves now. [url]http://www.nknews.org/2013/09/are-human-rights-really-improving-in-north-korea/[/url][/QUOTE] I think we can count the growth of private enterprise. Once a government implicitly allows private enterprise (black or legal) to operate, it means that the entire foundation on which the North Korean state rests becomes shaky. [quote]In 2009, the government carried out a currency redenomination with the aim to curb free market activity across the country, but the attempt failed, causing inflation rates to skyrocket, and eventually led to the lifting of the ban on free market trade.[212][/quote] North Korea fully well knows that they can't get rid of market activity and free enterprise. The Soviet Union began to suffer the same problems as early as the 1950s when Gulag administrators noticed that free workers worked better and that the camps needed subsidizing to exist put the entire system under scrutiny because the economic rationale behind them existing did not actually exist. It didn't take long for the camps to begin liberalizing and then eventually fall apart as a system, whilst the entire Soviet Union began to go the same way when it realized they couldn't compete with the west unless they abandoned their flawed economic policies. North Korea is going the same way. It's had famines for years, it's been losing support, their economic system is gradually rotting from the inside out: [quote]The average official salary in 2011 was equivalent to $2 per month while the actual monthly income seems to be around $15 because most North Koreans earn money in illegal small businesses: trade, subsistence farming, and handicrafts. The illegal economy is dominated by women because men have to attend their places of official work even though most of the factories are non-functioning.[207] It is estimated that in the early 2000s, the average North Korean family drew some 80% of its income from small businesses that are legal in market economies but illegal in North Korea.[208][/quote] The mass famines are over (it's improved to widespread malnutrition and food shortages), people are growing vegetables and potatoes, officials have become corrupted to the point where they allow people to conduct free market activities, and (some) people are gaining knowledge of the outside world: [quote]A study commissioned by the U. S. State Department shows that, despite extremely strict regulations and draconian penalties, North Koreans, particularly elite elements, have increasing access to news and other media outside the state-controlled media authorized by the government.[254] While access to the Internet is tightly controlled, listening to the radio and viewing DVDs is increasing, and receiving television broadcasts from neighboring states is also possible in border areas.[254][255][/quote] Once again I reiterate, the North Korean state is rotting from the inside out.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;42605114]I think we can count the growth of private enterprise. Once a government implicitly allows private enterprise (black or legal) to operate, it means that the entire foundation on which the North Korean state rests becomes shaky. North Korea fully well knows that they can't get rid of market activity and free enterprise. The Soviet Union began to suffer the same problems as early as the 1950s when Gulag administrators noticed that free workers worked better and that the camps needed subsidizing to exist put the entire system under scrutiny because the economic rationale behind them existing did not actually exist. It didn't take long for the camps to begin liberalizing and then eventually fall apart as a system, whilst the entire Soviet Union began to go the same way when it realized they couldn't compete with the west unless they abandoned their flawed economic policies. North Korea is going the same way. It's had famines for years, it's been losing support, their economic system is gradually rotting from the inside out: The mass famines are over (it's improved to widespread malnutrition and food shortages), people are growing vegetables and potatoes, officials have become corrupted to the point where they allow people to conduct free market activities, and (some) people are gaining knowledge of the outside world: Once again I reiterate, the North Korean state is rotting from the inside out.[/QUOTE] still horribly optimistic, they will likely have a civil war before they actually get more "free", all it takes is one pissed off/crazy general and there, everything is fucked. the only reason NK is still around is because china doesn't want an ally/puppet of the US to border it. and north korea has been "rotting" since its dawn, its nothing new. also economic policies don't mean shit for NK, you could easily compare its leaders with feudal lords, it has never been about communism, capitalism, "free market(lol)", its about control. you honestly think "free market" will save/bring freedom to NK, i don't think there is a rainbow big enough for your post.
as "one dimensional" the chinese government in beijing may seem, its more of a power struggle between a bunch of old men with differing views, the leader is chosen in an internal election idealist as fuck yo [editline]22nd October 2013[/editline] also the vice pres is the next in line for presidency
[QUOTE=s0m3_guy;42605463]as "one dimensional" the chinese government in beijing may seem, its more of a power struggle between a bunch of old men with differing views, the leader is chosen in an internal election idealist as fuck yo[/QUOTE] its actually 2 groups, an "old boys club" and the new generation fighting each other for power, they're both horribly corrupt. all that would happen in the event of china ending its single party policy, is that both groups would consolidate, form two parties, and fight each other for power, but hey democracy, yay!
[QUOTE=Wizards Court;42605435]still horribly optimistic, they will likely have a civil war before they actually get more "free", all it takes is one pissed off/crazy general and there, everything is fucked. the only reason NK is still around is because china doesn't want an ally/puppet of the US to border it. and north korea has been "rotting" since its dawn, its nothing new. also economic policies don't mean shit for NK, you could easily compare its leaders with feudal lords, it has never been about communism, capitalism, "free market(lol)", its about control. you honestly think "free market" will save/bring freedom to NK, i don't think there is a rainbow big enough for your post.[/QUOTE] I don't think the free market will save NK. I think the free market will destroy North Korea and there's nothing they can do it stop it. North Korea has no future beyond the 21st century, and it's most likely going to end up being annexed by a neighbour once it rots. I think these countries are becoming free only because economic and social movements end up becoming too powerful to ignore in authoritarian countries. Look at France, Britain, Germany, Russia, etc. These all had some forms of absolutism until the industrial era when the growing masses of industrial workers and factory owners overthrew or reformed the old system mostly for their own purposes. Capitalists want freedom to do business in, workers want a basic standard of living. If you look at all democracies we've had so far, most of them have legislated reform for protection of the lower classes with benefits and minimum wages or insurance, but economic freedom as well so as to provide income to pay for these things and incentivize people. There hasn't been one which has willingly tried to reform towards socialism (and when they do, they hit a brick wall after nationalized industries begin to fall apart).
North Korea? you mean West China? the Koreans are too racially proud to be lumped in with China, that's kinda why they weren't annexed in the 50s at all, China practically overran the place. they've just acted as a buffer for Mao but now China is pushing in and SK pushing up, NK is going to crumble when enough generals die and one tries to take power from the little fuher
[QUOTE=thisispain;42605042]really, a free market narrative? france is far less free-market than the UAE, but you tell me which one has more free people.[/QUOTE] Well it depends on how you're basing that freedom, because I think the Emirati people are wining on market freedom.
There is people still believing in that old american cold war construct that Capitalism and Democracy always comes together ? Oh indoctrination.
[QUOTE=spiritlol;42606705]Well it depends on how you're basing that freedom, because I think the Emirati people are wining on market freedom.[/QUOTE] Yeah, and that win is on the backs of slaves.
[QUOTE=Jeep-Eep;42608480]Yeah, and that win is on the backs of slaves.[/QUOTE] Like any good victory should be.
How surprising, the chinese government is oppressing its people.
This issue is more complex than I think some people realize. Consider how large China is, in geography and population. Now consider what might happen if an "Arab spring" type of rebellion was to start. Imagine Syria but with a billion people fighting. So in a way it's in no one's interest to see a push to reform start in China. Maybe not even the Chinese people would want that. What would work better, I think, is if the Chinese government was to slowly open things up a little at a time. This way they could avoid violence, and also allow the new culture of 'freedom' to spread peacefully. The only downside to doing it this way is it takes longer, probably generations. Meanwhile the population gets restless, so the challenge will be to allow just as much freedom as necessary to keep the population satisfied and not a bit more.
[QUOTE=Mechanical43;42607157]There is people still believing in that old american cold war construct that Capitalism and Democracy always comes together ? Oh indoctrination.[/QUOTE] It's not so much that capitalism and democracy always come together, but that it's rare that democracy and communism goes together. I can't think of a single socialist country that reformed into socialism whilst possessing a strong democracy and also didn't reverse those policies within about 20 years. Meanwhile, if we look at any communist country, they have implicitly said that their economic system is seriously flawed, given that most of them end up growing thriving internal black market economies to cover for the necessities that the state is unable to provide. Once that happens, it's a matter of time before they collapse. No Communist country has ever made it to seven decades without collapse or serious internal reform.
[QUOTE=Mechanical43;42607157]There is people still believing in that old american cold war construct that Capitalism and Democracy always comes together ? Oh indoctrination.[/QUOTE] Of course not. The US itself backed pro-business dictatorships.
I feel that the suffocating culture of china has led to them being complacent to anything the people they see as their leaders wish. They are such a proud, anti-outsider people I don't think they would hear reason from anyone other than a Chinese person who has gained their support. It is my impression that they feel that no one but them can possibly understand the situation that has led to China today, and as such everyone else should kindly fuck off and mind their own business.
[QUOTE]It is my impression that they feel that no one but them can possibly understand the situation that has led to China today, and as such everyone else should kindly fuck off and mind their own business. [/QUOTE] Well, if you monopolize education and force feed everyone with the same shit, fill every wall with "PRAISE MAO YOU MOTHERFUCKERS. THE WHOLE IS WORTH MORE THAN YOU"....then, well, wouldn't be surprised. NOW, now, wait another decade -a couple maybe- after internet and PC's have penetrated chinese society....it's reform or we all go red october 1917 again, but this time yellow/blue october.
[QUOTE=frozensoda;42611452]I feel that the suffocating culture of china has led to them being complacent to anything the people they see as their leaders wish. They are such a proud, anti-outsider people I don't think they would hear reason from anyone other than a Chinese person who has gained their support. It is my impression that they feel that no one but them can possibly understand the situation that has led to China today, and as such everyone else should kindly fuck off and mind their own business.[/QUOTE] I've talked to Chinese people and they often mention their dislike of government officials, mainly on grounds of corruption.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;42615648]I've talked to Chinese people and they often mention their dislike of government officials, mainly on grounds of corruption.[/QUOTE] Yes, I was just saying that I think it will take a chinese citizen "peoples hero" to motivate them to actually do anything about it. Even then they would probably be very reluctant, and for good reason.
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