Turkey is a religious shithole, this is quite mild I think.
[QUOTE=rndgenerator;50554367]Turkey is a religious shithole, this is quite mild I think.[/QUOTE]
Really? I thought Turkey was pretty divided when it comes to religion like Iran. I mean there are a whole lot of deeply religious shitheads but there are also many people who work against radicalization and Islam. Still wouldn't want to go there though.
[QUOTE=maeZtro;50554385]Really? I thought Turkey was pretty divided when it comes to religion like Iran. I mean there are a whole lot of deeply religious shitheads but there are also many people who work against radicalization and Islam. Still wouldn't want to go there though.[/QUOTE]
People keep suggesting that Islam is a violent religion, and yet we can already see the split within this video. There's chill motherfuckers kicking back listening to Radiohead and then there's people who lose their mind over alcohol during Ramadan. The media needs to give these fans a voice instead of giving such a large focus on the violent people.
[QUOTE=rndgenerator;50554367]Turkey is a religious shithole, this is quite mild I think.[/QUOTE]
I have been there and it's not despite what you gathered from all the news articles going around lately, most upper middle class Turkish people detest Erdogan and his politics, especially those with a higher degree of education.
[QUOTE=Killuah;50554409]I have been there and it's not despite what you gathered from all the news articles going around lately, most upper middle class Turkish people detest Erdogan and his politics, especially those with a higher degree of education.[/QUOTE]
What exactly does this have to do with Erdogan?
he's actively pushing against the secularization of Turkey, he's the head of the anti-laicism movement, his rheoric is full of "Mslims vs. the rest" and actively perpetuates extremist rhetoric like "bringing back the flag of Islam to Jerusalem"
[QUOTE=wauterboi;50554404]People keep suggesting that Islam is a violent religion, and yet we can already see the split within this video. There's chill motherfuckers kicking back listening to Radiohead and then there's people who lose their mind over alcohol during Ramadan. The media needs to give these fans a voice instead of giving such a large focus on the violent people.[/QUOTE]
Did you miss the part where muslim fundamentalists were beating up the more casual ones for not fasting during ramadan?
Yeah man, islam sure isn't violent. Once you stop following most of it.
When people say "islam is not compatible with western culture" or "islam is a violent religion" they mean the fundamentalists. You know the ones who support sharia law for example? The kind of islam that dominates in middle east? Obviously nobody means the guys who don't care about their religion to a point of making a party with beer during their holy month.
I really do try to understand these psychos, but I can't. I can only come to the conclusion that they are jealous other people are enjoying themselves while they torture themselves during Ramadan.
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;50554458]Did you miss the part where muslim fundamentalists were beating up the more casual ones for not fasting during ramadan?
Yeah man, islam sure isn't violent. Once you stop following most of it.
When people say "islam is not compatible with western culture" or "islam is a violent religion" they mean the fundamentalists. You know the ones who support sharia law for example? The kind of islam that dominates in middle east? Obviously nobody means the guys who don't care about their religion to a point of making a party with beer during their holy month.[/QUOTE]
Then say "fundamentalists" instead of generalizing all Muslims??
Cuz I'm pretty sure they see themselves as Muslims just like many Christians see themselves as Christians despite not going to church or following most of the othe rituals.
[QUOTE=wauterboi;50554404]People keep suggesting that Islam is a violent religion, and yet we can already see the split within this video. There's chill motherfuckers kicking back listening to Radiohead and then there's people who lose their mind over alcohol during Ramadan. The media needs to give these fans a voice instead of giving such a large focus on the violent people.[/QUOTE]
I think Islam is a violent religion too but I don't think the majority of muslims are violent. I agree on the media part however, mainstream media is terrible nowadays. It almost solely report bad things or really uncommon neutral/good things so it makes you feel like everything is shit in the world. To make things even worse they often view everything in black or white and pick a side like "this is because of Islam" or "this is not because of Islam". It would be nice to get the morning paper and read positive stuff for once.
[QUOTE=Killuah;50554471]Then say "fundamentalists" instead of generalizing all Muslims??[/QUOTE]
Uh. What? You want people to be differentiating muslims who actually follow the tenets of islam from muslims? You want to differentiate the majority? The ones who are more true to the book? They are not some vocal minority.
[QUOTE=Killuah;50554471]Cuz I'm pretty sure they see themselves as Muslims just like many Christians see themselves as Christians despite not going to church or following most of the othe rituals.[/QUOTE]
And when you say "christians" you think of those who follow their religion, believe in god almighty, his son Jesus Christ and the holy ghost, heaven and hell, who go to church and pray, etc etc. Not the ones who go "meh, yeah, I think there's some higher power, it's probably the christian god but I don't really mind".
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;50554484]Uh. What? You want people to be differentiating muslims who actually follow the tenets of islam from muslims? You want to differentiate the majority? The ones who are more true to the book? They are not some vocal minority.
And when you say "christians" you think of those who follow their religion, believe in god almighty, his son Jesus Christ and the holy ghost, heaven and hell, who go to church and pray, etc etc. Not the ones who go "meh, yeah, I think there's some higher power, it's probably the christian god but I don't really mind".[/QUOTE]
When I say "Christian", I mean people who believes in Jesus Christ and his teachings. When I say "Muslim", I mean people who believe in Allah and the corresponding text. Now, when I criticize Christianity, I make an effort to criticize it and not them, and if I criticize "them", I'm pretty damned specific. It's the difference between criticizing the gang and criticizing minorities, or criticizing offending pedophiles and criticizing all pedophiles. Being specific is what helps craft a context and builds a mindset that doesn't throw the entire bunch into the fire. There's a spectrum of extremism in Islam, and the people who are not as extreme aren't happy with the abrasive people in their own religion, and yet address them as one entity because it's easier to point fingers at. And when you're called out for saying the equivalent of criticizing black people instead of the gang, it's easier for you to claim that [I]I'm[/I] the one that needs to put in extra work, because [I]of course you were just talking about the bad ones.[/I] And yet, I don't think you would be happy if someone told you, "Of course I was just talking about the bad black people."
I think it's important to make that distinction. Not many people are doing it. Not many people are giving the discontent Muslims a chance to tell the rest of the world that they agree with some of the criticisms of their religion, and that it's getting way out of hand. And that's a problem, because while you claim to have the distinction nailed down, I've met many others who haven't. I've met people afraid of all Muslims. I talk to people regularly who want to ban Muslims from the United States, as if they're all at fault for the violent ones. And so, if you're not willing to make the distinction for yourself, make the distinction for others as your words may be terribly misinterpreted and give rise to bad ideologies.
I wish hypocritical cunts like the man in the video would just fuck off and die. Preaching about it being Ramadan, a Holy Month, whilst at the same time spewing hate, violence and swearing ("I'll fuck you in the ass"). Definitely the way you behave as a practicing Muslim in the month of Ramadan!
Any decent Muslim would look on at the group, silently shake his head and say "Alhamdulilah" that he is not a part of it. Not start trying to smash his way into the shop and fight people. That's what pisses me off about religion: a book that is supposedly written by an omniscient, omnipotent being can be misinterpreted by millions of people. Surely if it were a case of it being written by such a powerful being, there would be zero margin of error in interpreting the book, no?
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;50554484]Uh. What? You want people to be differentiating muslims who actually follow the tenets of islam from muslims? You want to differentiate the majority? The ones who are more true to the book? They are not some vocal minority.
And when you say "christians" you think of those who follow their religion, believe in god almighty, his son Jesus Christ and the holy ghost, heaven and hell, who go to church and pray, etc etc. Not the ones who go "meh, yeah, I think there's some higher power, it's probably the christian god but I don't really mind".[/QUOTE]
[quote]When people say "islam is not compatible with western culture" or "islam is a violent religion" they mean the fundamentalists. [/quote]
[editline]20th June 2016[/editline]
[quote]And when you say "christians" you think of those who follow their religion, believe in god almighty, his son Jesus Christ and the holy ghost, heaven and hell, who go to church and pray, etc etc. Not the ones who go "meh, yeah, I think there's some higher power, it's probably the christian god but I don't really mind".[/quote]
No. Christians. As in, people who identify themselves as Christians.
That includes a lot more than what [I]your fundamentalist[/I] interpretation of who is truly religious and who isn't dictates.
Are the subtitles correct? One of the attackers was repeatedly saying "I will fuck you in the ass" and "I will fuck your dead body".
[QUOTE=Killuah;50554669][editline]20th June 2016[/editline]
No. Christians. As in, people who identify themselves as Christians.
That includes a lot more than what [I]your fundamentalist[/I] interpretation of who is truly religious and who isn't dictates.[/QUOTE]
If someone would be criticizing christians today and their values he would be talking about the ideology and those who follow it. Those who think god and jesus is real but don't really practice their religion are not part of that critique. Stop attempting to twist my words.
[QUOTE=wauterboi;50554532]When I say "Christian", I mean people who believes in Jesus Christ and his teachings. When I say "Muslim", I mean people who believe in Allah and the corresponding text. Now, when I criticize Christianity, I make an effort to criticize it and not them, and if I criticize "them", I'm pretty damned specific. It's the difference between criticizing the gang and criticizing minorities, or criticizing offending pedophiles and criticizing all pedophiles. Being specific is what helps craft a context and builds a mindset that doesn't throw the entire bunch into the fire. There's a spectrum of extremism in Islam, and the people who are not as extreme aren't happy with the abrasive people in their own religion, and yet address them as one entity because it's easier to point fingers at. And when you're called out for saying the equivalent of criticizing black people instead of the gang, it's easier for you to claim that [I]I'm[/I] the one that needs to put in extra work, because [I]of course you were just talking about the bad ones.[/I] And yet, I don't think you would be happy if someone told you, "Of course I was just talking about the bad black people."
I think it's important to make that distinction. Not many people are doing it. Not many people are giving the discontent Muslims a chance to tell the rest of the world that they agree with some of the criticisms of their religion, and that it's getting way out of hand. And that's a problem, because while you claim to have the distinction nailed down, I've met many others who haven't. I've met people afraid of all Muslims. I talk to people regularly who want to ban Muslims from the United States, as if they're all at fault for the violent ones. And so, if you're not willing to make the distinction for yourself, make the distinction for others as your words may be terribly misinterpreted and give rise to bad ideologies.[/QUOTE]
Muslims are not a race. Your race analogy doesn't work. And it's very dishonest if you did that intentionally.
Islam is an ideology. When someone makes a statement about an ideology or it's compatibility with something, they are talking about the ideology itself and those who follow that ideology. People who identify themselves as followers but actually follow only a small portion of that ideology are not taken into consideration.
When people say "islam isn't compatible with western culture". They mean the tenets of islam are not compatible. They don't mean people who go partying during ramadan because they are not following these tenets. You think fundamentalists are a vocal minority among muslims in the middle east? Because that's what you people are trying to make it look like. They are not. I'm sorry to break it to you but the guys who were beaten up in the vid are the minority. You want to differentiate you'll have to differentiate the minority not the majority.
Here's a godwin clear example. Say germany is still full of nazis. But there are some who call themselves nazis but they don't mind the jews they only support the socialist part of nazism. Now you have people from other countries saying that nazism is bad and has to go. And then someone like you comes along and goes "no you can't say nazism is bad, not all nazis are like that, you have to make it very specific you're talking about the bad ones".
Islam without abandoning at least some of it's tenets is not compatible with western society. Just like 12th century christianity wouldn't be compatible with today's western society, unless it would abandon many of it's practices. Which it did.
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;50554973]Here's a godwin clear example. Say germany is still full of nazis. But there are some who call themselves nazis but they don't mind the jews they only support the socialist part of nazism. Now you have people from other countries saying that nazism is bad and has to go. And then someone like you comes along and goes "no you can't say nazism is bad, not all nazis are like that, you have to make it very specific you're talking about the bad ones".[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I don't really have a problem with that. What I'm suggesting is that there's a very clear split in Islam. There's very obviously Muslims that are countering traditional Islam. In your example, I'd be the one saying, "Hey, everyone's focusing on the shitty ones, but there's a lot of Nazis who are clearly upset with what the extremists in their own party are doing. Don't group them together, and give these ones a voice so they can help create the distinction." The Nazis that weren't really down for killing Jews or were just doing their job to avoid persecution themselves didn't get their voice.
You're saying that it's really only the fundamentalists in Islam that should be taken seriously, and that people shouldn't really look consider Islam as something complex. The people who are standing in the way of traditional Islam are something to ignore. That's a problem, and it hurts [I]all[/I] Muslims when you do that. I don't really give a shit about your criticism - I'll stand with you and criticize Islam all day any day just as I would with Christianity. But blindness and vagueness is hurting people all around the globe. People are learning to get sick of all Muslims, and that's why I'm place great importance on being specific.
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;50554973]Islam without abandoning at least some of it's tenets is not compatible with western society. Just like 12th century christianity wouldn't be compatible with today's western society, unless it would abandon many of it's practices. Which it did.[/QUOTE]
Thank you Sil. People need to realise that Islam has not advanced like Christianity has. We weren't there to live with them and force them to come to our terms. The westernised Muslims are a minority and the moderates lean more towards the radicalised due to fear of death, punishment or indoctrination to hate the west.
[QUOTE=BioWaster;50555052]Thank you Sil. People need to realise that Islam has not advanced like Christianity has. We weren't there to live with them and force them to come to our terms. The westernised Muslims are a minority and the moderates lean more towards the radicalised due to fear of death, punishment or indoctrination to hate the west.[/QUOTE]
I think the ball is starting to roll in that direction because of all of these conflicts. The people you see in this room in this video are an example of people realizing that some of the stuff in Islam is kinda bullshit.
I view ideologies like an apple. You can eat away at the outside in circles, slowly but surely, until you spiral your way into the core. We've just broken through the skin, and we're working our way down as a globe with the extreme nature of Islam. We'll work our way further down until all that's left are is the core, which we don't want to "eat", or deal with. And at that point we just chuck the apple, where it will eventually degrade down to nothing as those core members die out.
[editline]20th June 2016[/editline]
I really don't think it's far-fetched to understand that there's a lot of Muslims that don't want to get the shit kicked out of them or blown up. There's another side that's being completely shadowed because people want to be entertained with an enemy. We like having an enemy. We like having something we can hate. And we like our enemies to be simple. The problem is that simplicity causes some of the wrong people to get the flak.
That's why I brought up minorities and gangs - there's [I]plenty[/I] of minorities that don't want to deal with the negativity that gangs bring to their neighborhoods. There's tons of minorities that don't want to deal with drugs. Minorities want to life a good life and just happen to be stuck in shit situations in the same vicinity as the gangs and drug dealers - it doesn't mean we get to say, "Well, black people are a problem!" Similarly, we shouldn't be saying, "Well, Muslims are the problem!"
[QUOTE=wauterboi;50555017]Yeah, I don't really have a problem with that. What I'm suggesting is that there's a very clear split in Islam. There's very obviously Muslims that are countering traditional Islam. In your example, I'd be the one saying, "Hey, everyone's focusing on the shitty ones, but there's a lot of Nazis who are clearly upset with what the extremists in their own party are doing. Don't group them together, and give these ones a voice so they can help create the distinction." The Nazis that weren't really down for killing Jews or were just doing their job to avoid persecution themselves didn't get their voice.
You're saying that it's really only the fundamentalists in Islam that should be taken seriously, and that people shouldn't really look consider Islam as something complex. The people who are standing in the way of traditional Islam are something to ignore. That's a problem, and it hurts [I]all[/I] Muslims when you do that. I don't really give a shit about your criticism - I'll stand with you and criticize Islam all day any day just as I would with Christianity. But blindness and vagueness is hurting people all around the globe. People are learning to get sick of all Muslims, and that's why I'm place great importance on being specific.[/QUOTE]
You're still missing the point. If I said, nazis have to go. I mean the ones who follow that ideology. Those who don't really care and are just doing their job to avoid persecution are not included in my statement.
When I said Islam isn't compatible with western culture I don't mean the people who abandoned some of it's tenets AND ARE NOW COMPATIBLE.
I'm not advocating taking seriously only the fundamentalists and ignoring the more casual ones. I'm saying the opposition to islam is against it's core. Not against those who already abandoned the bad parts of it.
You want a specific statement? Here: Muslims who strictly follow most of the quran, who are the majority, are not compatible with western culture.
(do I really have to make any differentiation here?)
I'm not vague, you people are spreading vagueness. Saying this has nothing to do with islam or that it isn't violent.
Islam has to change just like christianity did if it is to be compatible with western culture.
Otherwise you only have individual muslims who discarded some of it's values and tenets. This doesn't make islam compatible. This makes only those muslims who did it compatible.
[editline]20th June 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=wauterboi;50555064]That's why I brought up minorities and gangs - there's [I]plenty[/I] of minorities that don't want to deal with the negativity that gangs bring to their neighborhoods. There's tons of minorities that don't want to deal with drugs. Minorities want to life a good life and just happen to be stuck in shit situations in the same vicinity as the gangs and drug dealers - it doesn't mean we get to say, "Well, black people are a problem!" Similarly, we shouldn't be saying, "Well, Muslims are the problem!"[/QUOTE]
Stop with this ingenuous race analogy. Islam is not a race. It's an ideology with goals, values and tenets.
Stop putting words in people's mouths. Nobody said muslims are the problem.
Stop being so condescending and treating us like children. "We like having an enemy. We like having something we can hate. And we like our enemies to be simple." what a joke.
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;50555148]You're still missing the point. If I said, nazis have to go. I mean the ones who follow that ideology. Those who don't really care and are just doing their job to avoid persecution are not included in my statement.[/quote]
People do this all the time with everyone and I hate it. Is it [I]all[/I] Republicans that are shitheads, or just the most popular? Are [I]all[/I] feminists terrible? What about Vegans? When people aren't specific it contributes to a stigma that affects everyone in that group. I used to be super against people correcting others on this until I realized this negative effect on innocent people.
[quote]When I said Islam isn't compatible with western culture I don't mean the people who abandoned some of it's tenets AND ARE NOW COMPATIBLE.[/quote]
That's a contradiction: are Muslims incompatible or not? It's not obvious what you're referring to, because there's plenty of people who legitimately refer to all Muslims with a negative connotation. You have to be more specific, otherwise you're making the bigots you claim to not associate with feel at home, regardless of whether or not you are or aren't yourself. And I don't believe you are - I just think you have to be specific.
[quote]You want a specific statement? Here: Muslims who strictly follow most of the quran, who are the majority, are not compatible with western culture.
(do I really have to make any differentiation here?)[/quote]
Yeah, but I'll help you out: shorten it to Muslim extremism.
[quote]I'm not vague, you people are spreading vagueness. Saying this has nothing to do with islam or that it isn't violent.[/QUOTE]
Dunno what you're talking about. I always say Muslim extremism. It's specific enough and allows me to vent about the problems of Islam.
[QUOTE=wauterboi;50555194]People do this all the time with everyone and I hate it. Is it [I]all[/I] Republicans that are shitheads, or just the most popular? Are [I]all[/I] feminists terrible? What about Vegans? When people aren't specific it contributes to a stigma that affects everyone in that group. I used to be super against people correcting others on this until I realized this negative effect on innocent people.
That's a contradiction: are Muslims incompatible or not? It's not obvious what you're referring to, because there's plenty of people who legitimately refer to all Muslims with a negative connotation. You have to be more specific, otherwise you're making the bigots you claim to not associate with feel at home, regardless of whether or not you are or aren't yourself. And I don't believe you are - I just think you have to be specific.[/QUOTE]
You seem to be confusing ideology with people who follow said ideology. You listed groups of people and not ideologies. Saying "islam is x" isn't equal to saying "muslims are x" because someone can call themselves a muslim and not follow quran so strictly. Example: People from the vid are probably all muslims. That's exactly why I'm referring to "islam" and not "muslims". Because different muslims follow islam do different extent.
[QUOTE=wauterboi;50555194]Yeah, but I'll help you out: shorten it to Muslim extremism.
Dunno what you're talking about. I always say Muslim extremism. It's specific enough and allows me to vent about the problems of Islam.[/QUOTE]
Why the hell would you call the majority of members of a religion, the one's haven't abandoned many of it's tenets fundamentalists? This is exactly what I mean when I say you're spreading vagueness. You want to differentiate the majority from the whole instead of differentiating the minority.
[editline]20th June 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=Trebgarta;50555201]Islam isnt analogous to nazis[/QUOTE]
No it's not. That's now what the analogy was about. Try again.
To clear up oversimplificaiton with more oversimplification:
I like to split Islam into three distinct groups. This isn't remotely true and ignores Sunni/Shia and some real other important distinctions, but it's a good simple overview of the three real "types of Islam" you see in the world today.
First, [B]Islamic Modernism[/B], or Modernist Salafism. This was a big movement in the 19th Century and really influenced European Islam and Western Islam as a whole. Research [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Abduh"]Muhammad Abduh[/URL] - it's hard to disagree with a single thing this guy says, even as a guy who tends to have disdain for religion. Modernism promotes religious plurality, study of the sciences, the adoption of Western ideas and the application of those ideas onto Islam. It began not to reconcile Islam with the West, but as an attempt to compete with Western imperialism by adopting their tactics. Muhammad Abduh promoted [I]rationality and reason[/I]. He was an educator, and thought that the sciences were absolutely necessary alongside religious education. He wanted to abolish religious compulsion and use Islam to bring about equality of race and gender. He opposed polygamy. He was anti-traditionalist. He wanted to abolish the "monopoly on exegesis" of the imams and open interpretation of religious texts to [i]anyone[/i] for them to determine through god-given reason and rationalism. This shaped Islam in much of Europe - less ardent adherence to what the imams say, no real fatwas, and individual study of the Koran and religious texts.
Second, the "moderate Muslim," or [B]Traditionalism[/B]. This is the vast majority of the Middle East and Asian Muslim countries. They are conservative, and tend to defer to tradition (duh). Despite this, they are not even close to radical. They might support the veil, they might not. They recognize that Sharia law has strict punishments defined in it, but they very rarely (if ever) enforce those punishments (even if they have the laws on book). Most traditional Muslim countries are generally religiously pluralistic, and follow the tradition established in Sharia and by previous caliphates, allowing other religious groups to handle their own issues. These people are hardly the rationalist, progressive front of Islamic modernism, but they aren't much worse than conservative Christians in the US. They oppose homosexuality and a lot of other issues that the Western world largely accepts - but they don't go around rounding up gays and executing them (contrary to popular belief).
Last, [B]Fundamentalism[/B]. Salafism. Wahhabism. Radicalism. Extremist, literalist, originalist interpretation of religious texts. These people are [i]as not, if not even moreso[/i] anti-traditionalist than the Islamic Modernists. The idea of "kill the infidels" is rooted in this - historically, traditionally, this was not how Islam operated. Other religious groups in past caliphates were [i]protected peoples[/i] - ISIS and other extremist groups slaughter Christians and Jews and other religious groups that traditionally had the explicit protection of the caliphates/islamic states under Sharia law. They actually take enormous liberties with their interpretation of the Koran, ignoring important verses like "there is no compulsion in religion" and instead forcing people to comply and turn to Islam or to die. They are murderers and thugs - and they are a minority. They are not traditional in the slightest - they are "literalist," but as selectively literal as Christian fundamentalists are in the US. They ignore religious law when necessary, and follow it when it suits them - just like US fundamentalists wear leather and eat pork while citing that Leviticus says that gays are bad. Hypocritical and ignorant of their own religious text.
This is a vast oversimplification, but it helps distinguish the three main groups. Doesn't touch on Sunni/Shia disagreements and numerous other issues, but helps distinguish between "conservative" and "fundamentalist."
Claiming that extremists are the majority of Islam is exactly the same as saying that the majority of Islam are terrorists.
Now, I don't have an opinion about this, but I'd just like to stop this association that muslims/islamics (what is the correct term by the way?) are terrorists, and the other way around. If we were to follow the same analogy, catholics are terrorists as well because they promoted their Holy War in the 12th-14th centuries, yet you don't see terrorism being related to catholics.
[QUOTE=Hanso;50554460]I really do try to understand these psychos, but I can't. I can only come to the conclusion that they are jealous other people are enjoying themselves while they torture themselves during Ramadan.[/QUOTE]
It's not even torture for most muslims. The whole point of Ramadan is to starve yourself so you can be more sympathetic to the poor, starving people on the streets who really need the charity of those that are well off but all of that goes out the window when muslims have a big fucking feast in the morning then have another feast at sunset. That's not fasting, it's digesting.
[QUOTE=.Isak.;50555391] [B]Islamic Modernism[/B], [B]Traditionalism[/B].[B]Fundamentalism[/B][/QUOTE]
Are those the correct terms? I had the impression that those who you called traditionalists are the fundamentalists and the ones you called fundamentalists are the extremists/terrorists. Genuine question. I always thought fundamentalists are intolerant and conservative but don't kill infidels/gays/whatever.
So can these people file assault charges, or would that not even go through in that situation? Someone came in like that and slap me around over some religious belief and I'd either sue or leave that place and never come back.
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;50555764]Are those the correct terms? I had the impression that those who you called traditionalists are the fundamentalists and the ones you called fundamentalists are the extremists/terrorists. Genuine question. I always thought fundamentalists are intolerant and conservative but don't kill infidels/gays/whatever.[/QUOTE]
By his logic, more than 2/3 of the Islam faith believes in punishing people for being gay and are against women's rights. Only the Moderns would be progressive in a sense.
[QUOTE=.Isak.;50555391] These people are hardly the rationalist, progressive front of Islamic modernism, but they aren't much worse than conservative Christians in the US. [/quote]
As being deeply rooted in Christianity not only Catholics in the Boston area but Baptists in the deep south - this couldn't be more wrong. The chief virtue of Christians is in forgiveness of sinners and a "blind eye attitude". How often compared to traditional or fundamentalist Islam do you see gays LEGALLY assaulted, murdered, or driven from their homes. I understand there is a history of violence towards homosexuals and women in our very own modern day society; but even then we have laws to protect all citizen's rights. A lot of traditional/fundamental follows of Islam want Sharia law which would make these violent acts ENCOURAGED. Let's also not forget the millions of Christians killed and driven out of the middle east.
Frankly I'm getting a bit exahusted of you're pseudo-intellectual posts in all of these threads, slightly favoring a regressive world view which is ignoring violence towards minorities and women in our modern society. And I can say this confidently knowing I am not prone to cultural bias or Islamophobia, and although my post could seem that way I am just trying to state the many issues that arise from the clash of Islam with Christianity or Atheist/agnostic western cultures. You didn't even talk about the video you just went straight to trying to educate people in some weird roundabout way.
[QUOTE=Glitchman;50555848]By his logic, more than 2/3 of the Islam faith believes in punishing people for being gay and are against women's rights. Only the Moderns would be progressive in a sense[/QUOTE]
Well, yeah more or less. Remind me how well are gays and women's rights doing in middle east again?
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;50555879]Well, yeah more or less. Remind me how well are gays and women's rights doing in middle east again?[/QUOTE]
remind me how well gays and women do in any developing country, in any traditional society, regardless of religion
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