Obama won’t apologize for Hiroshima nuclear bombings - Polidicks

[URL]https://www.yahoo.com/news/obama-wont-apologize-for-hiroshima-during-trip-to-193058852.html[/URL] [quote] President Obama may visit Hiroshima when he travels to Japan late this month for a [URL="http://www.japan.go.jp/g7/"]summit of key industrialized nations[/URL], but he will not apologize for the World War II decision to destroy that city with an atomic bomb, the White House said Monday. [B]Asked by Yahoo News whether Obama believes Japan deserves a formal apology for the August 6, 1945, bombing, White House press secretary Josh Earnest replied: “No, he does not.”[/B][/quote]On July 3rd, 1988, an Iranian commercial airliner carrying 290 passengers [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655"]was shot down by USS Vincennes[/URL] who were both in Iran territorial waters at the time—killing everyone aboard. Speaking on the incident, George H. W. Bush declared "[B]I will never apologize for the United States[/B] — [B]I don't care what the facts are[/B]... I'm not an apologize-for-America kind of guy." The captain of the ship was later given a [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legion_of_Merit"]Legion of Merit[/URL] for exceptionally meritorious conduct in the performance of outstanding service as commanding officer ... from April 1987 to May 1989." The award was given for his service as the commanding officer of the [I]Vincennes[/I] from April 1987 to May 1989. The plane was shot down in 1988.

Why should they apologise for Horshima and Nagasaki ober ever other strategic bombing in the war?

I mean I don't really think it's the sort of thing that's cut and dry enough to say the US definitely should apologize for it.

[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;50247614]I mean I don't really think it's the sort of thing that's cut and dry enough to say the US definitely should apologize for it.[/QUOTE] And Obama isn't responsible for it. Nor are most of the people currently alive.

It's not like Obama was there when it happened. Different generation different principles.

[QUOTE=Starpluck;50247599][URL]https://www.yahoo.com/news/obama-wont-apologize-for-hiroshima-during-trip-to-193058852.html[/URL] On July 3rd, 1988, an Iranian commercial airliner carrying 290 passengers [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655"]was shot down by USS Vincennes[/URL] who were both in Iran territorial waters at the time—killing everyone aboard. Speaking on the incident, George H. W. Bush declared "[B]I will never apologize for the United States[/B] — [B]I don't care what the facts are[/B]... I'm not an apologize-for-America kind of guy." The captain of the ship was later given a [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legion_of_Merit"]Legion of Merit[/URL] for exceptionally meritorious conduct in the performance of outstanding service as commanding officer ... from April 1987 to May 1989." The award was given for his service as the commanding officer of the [I]Vincennes[/I] from April 1987 to May 1989. The plane was shot down in 1988.[/QUOTE] Is this trying to imply that the guy got the Legion of Merit because the ship under his command shot down a passenger plane? Seems really dishonest considering he could have earned it for many other reasons during his 3 years in command of the ship.

[QUOTE=1/4 Life;50247616]And Obama isn't responsible for it. Nor are most of the people currently alive.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=J!NX;50247617]It's not like Obama was there when it happened. Different generation different principles.[/QUOTE] This is the same logic used by people claiming that Germany does not owe any nations WWII reparations. They are still paying reparations to this today in May 2016 for a government and people that had nothing to do with them. No one is even asking Obama to personally apologize for Hiroshima. I think you're misunderstanding the point of a diplomatic formal apology.

I don't see how the shootdown of flight 665 is at all related to this - and flight 665 was a complete accident, not responding to hails in the straight of hormuz in the middle of the tanker wars.

[QUOTE=Starpluck;50247627]This is the same logic used by people claiming that Germany does not owe any nations WWII reparations. They are still paying reparations to this today in May 2016 for a government and people that had nothing to do with them. No one is even asking Obama to personally apologize for Hiroshima. I think you're misunderstanding the point of a diplomatic formal apology.[/QUOTE] I don't know. Japan started a war with America, brutally massacred and subjugated the people of China and the Korean peninsula, and committed countless atrocities. I don't really think the US owes them an apology for bombing them. Like, all bombing is terrible. War is terrible. But they're the ones who started the war.

That's a loaded question... and not even answered by Obama himself. Also, I'm not really sure how your comment about the airline incident relates to this meaningfully. I guess J.Cole was wrong on this [URL="http://genius.com/1845929"]line[/URL].

[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;50247651]I don't know. Japan started a war with America, brutally massacred and subjugated the people of China and the Korean peninsula, and committed countless atrocities. I don't really think the US owes them an apology for bombing them. Like, all bombing is terrible. War is terrible. But they're the ones who started the war.[/QUOTE] Especially since we sort of rebuilt them and gave them their freedom as a sovern nation afterwards, something few of the aggressors from ww2 had, the Soviet Union took everything they could from their "liberated" States and then subjugated them under military takeovers Germany had to live torn in half for 40 years, italy got lucky by being on the right side of the red army, but even then they didn't get nearly as much help as we gave Japan

[QUOTE=mecaguy03;50247626]Is this trying to imply that the guy got the Legion of Merit because the ship under his command shot down a passenger plane? Seems really dishonest considering he could have earned it for many other reasons during his 3 years in command of the ship.[/QUOTE] Captain William C. Rogers III is notoriously known by his fellow crewman and other Commanders (e.g. commander of the USS Sides, a warship stationed near Rodgers) for his terribly reckless and endangering performance. This wasn't the first incident in which Rogers was criticized for his recklessly aggressive maneuvers. There is nothing good about this guy, and I am quite interested in seeing why he may have "earned" it as you suggest, when overwhelming evidence points to the contrary. Ignoring the downing of the Iranian airliner, Commander David Carlson said that the destruction of the aircraft "marked the horrifying climax to Captain Rogers's aggressiveness, first seen four weeks ago" I don't think he was awarded the Legion of Merit because he killed civllians, I just don't think the military cared— or took that into account when awarding him an award that is given for "exceptionally meritorious conduct in the performance of outstanding services and achievements."

Also bombing them like that was pretty much the only way to avoid a much, [I]much[/I] costlier land-invasion that they were gearing up to defend themselves against, which would have probably resulted in countless Okinawa-style massacres of civilians by the Japanese to prevent U.S. gains, and also a possible Germany-style splitting of the country with the Soviets poised and promised to invade from the north. The only ones who owe an apology is the Japanese leaders of the time refusing to surrender once the war was clearly lost.

[QUOTE=Starpluck;50247680]Captain William C. Rogers III is notoriously known by his fellow crewman and other Commanders (e.g. commander of the USS Sides, a warship stationed near Rodgers) for his terribly reckless and endangering performance. This wasn't the first incident in which Rogers was criticized for his recklessly aggressive maneuvers. There is nothing good about this guy, and I am quite interested in seeing why he may have "earned" it as you suggest, when overwhelming evidence points to the contrary. Ignoring the downing of the Iranian airliner, Commander David Carlson said that the destruction of the aircraft "marked the horrifying climax to Captain Rogers's aggressiveness, first seen four weeks ago" I don't think he was awarded the Legion of Merit because he killed civllians, I just don't think the military cared— or took that into account when awarding him an award that is given for "exceptionally meritorious conduct in the performance of outstanding services and achievements."[/QUOTE] that kinda seems like a completely unrelated and entirely different situation

[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;50247684]that kinda seems like a completely unrelated and entirely different situation[/QUOTE] Just Starpluck bringing up another entirely unrelated episode to make this seem awful when it's really the entirely rational and right choice to make. Business as usual.

[QUOTE=Mallow234;50247640]I don't see how the shootdown of flight 665 is at all related to this - and flight 665 was a complete accident, not responding to hails in the straight of hormuz in the middle of the tanker wars.[/QUOTE] It is not related, but the fact that Flight 655 was a "complete accident" as you reiterate and the United States still refuses to apologize says something about the way the United States deals with apologies. The point I was making was that even if the United States indisputably fucked up on Hiroshima, whether it be "accidentally" nuking them 20 times instead of 2 or if the Japanese had issues their surrender to the United States before any of the atomic bombs dropped, history has shown that the United States would not issue an apology. A mere "statement of regret" would be given. As for the shoot down, the Vincennes was issued a warning on the military frequency seven times to the civilian airliner. The civilian airliner does not have the capacity to pick up military frequencies in 1988 as they were only a civilian airliner. Not once did the Vincennes make attempt to contact the airliner through an air traffic control frequency. What is more bemusing is that this occurred with the airliner flying in Iranian airspace with the Vincennes in Iranian waters. The threshold of identification lies on the Vincennes. As this happened over Iranian airspace and waters, little culpability (if any) lies on the Iranian airliner.

First the fuck off. How is the fucking shit you posted relevant to the fucking article? It literally has nothing to do with the article and more selfwankery that you're trying to put in to somehow throw an emotional gutpunch instead actually following facts. Further, you mentioned Germany and reparations yet completely ignored the massive amounts of money the US pumped into both Germany and Japan after World War 2 to help them recover, rebuild and become the economic powerhouses they are today. Just stop, your posting of that little tidbit was not only unneeded but complete and total flamebait. [highlight](User was banned for this post ("Flaming" - Big Dumb American))[/highlight]

[QUOTE=Starpluck;50247701]It is not related, but the fact that Flight 655 was a "complete accident" as you reiterate and the United States still refuses to apologize says something about the way the United States deals with apologies. The point I was making was that even if the United States indisputably fucked up on Hiroshima, whether it be "accidentally" nuking them 20 times instead of 2 or if the Japanese had issues their surrender to the United States before any of the atomic bombs dropped, history has shown that the United States would not issue an apology. A mere "statement of regret" would be given. [/QUOTE] But... That's still not related at all. Hiroshima wasn't an accident, it was an act of war, a justified act of war, a justified act of war which was the lesser of two evils and probably paradoxically enough saved millions of lives, both American, Japanese and civilian. It was a good decision made in a shitty situation.

[QUOTE=Riller;50247683]Also bombing them like that was pretty much the only way to avoid a much, [I]much[/I] costlier land-invasion that they were gearing up to defend themselves against, which would have probably resulted in countless Okinawa-style massacres of civilians by the Japanese to prevent U.S. gains, and also a possible Germany-style splitting of the country with the Soviets poised and promised to invade from the north. The only ones who owe an apology is the Japanese leaders of the time refusing to surrender once the war was clearly lost.[/QUOTE] I'm entirely willing to accept that nukes weren't absolutely necessary for ending the conflict in Japan. It was a complex situation, and there was a lot of room for nuance. That's the thing though. Even if the leaders at the time were aware that the nukes maybe weren't absolutely necessarily, maybe isn't good enough when you're talking about global conflict. Honestly, I kinda think choosing the option that immediately and assuredly put an end to any and all armed resistance was the pragmatic choice, even if diplomacy might have potentially been a valid option. I think the stakes might have just been too high for taking risks. And ultimately I think the responsibility lies on the Japanese leaders who started the whole affair and put the US in that position to begin with. Now, maybe I'm wrong. After all, I'm just some asshole. But I think the issue is at least subjective enough that you can't really say the US is morally obligated to apologize.

[QUOTE=Starpluck;50247627]This is the same logic used by people claiming that Germany does not owe any nations WWII reparations. They are still paying reparations to this today in May 2016 for a government and people that had nothing to do with them. No one is even asking Obama to personally apologize for Hiroshima. I think you're misunderstanding the point of a diplomatic formal apology.[/QUOTE] germany shouldn't owe wwii reparations anymore. all the people responsible are dead

[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;50247651]I don't know. Japan started a war with America, brutally massacred and subjugated the people of China and the Korean peninsula, and committed countless atrocities. I don't really think the US owes them an apology for bombing them. Like, all bombing is terrible. War is terrible. But they're the ones who started the war.[/QUOTE] If you read the OP, you would see that the United States is not apologizing because they think it is justified but the fact that this is line with many of their historical tragedies. Some of which are "complete accidents" with no justification whatsoever. They shot down a civilian airliner killing 300 people, you'd think their immediate reaction would be "Oh shit, sorry for that!" not "I will never apologize for America"

[QUOTE=Starpluck;50247711]If you read the OP, you would see that the United States is not apologizing because they think it is justified but the fact that this is line with many of their historical tragedies. Some of which are "complete accidents"[/QUOTE] So basically you're doing this because you wanna signal how enlightened you are instead of actually picking your battles?

[QUOTE=Starpluck;50247711]If you read the OP, you would see that the United States is not apologizing because they think it is justified but the fact that this is line with many of their historical tragedies. Some of which are "complete accidents" with no justification whatsoever. They shot down a civilian airliner killing 300 people, you'd think their immediate reaction would be "Oh shit, sorry for that!" not "I will never apologize for America"[/QUOTE] The only statement on the matter seems to be a government official saying Obama doesn't think the US should apologize. Your explanation of their position seems to be purely speculation.

Other forms of bombing in Japan killed just as many people during WW2, I don't see how just because it was a nuke means we should apologize for it. That's like Germany asking Russia for an apology for utterly destroying their cities during WW2. Not only was Germany the aggressor (as Japan was), they also lost the war (which Japan did). While all the dead civilians is awful, [i]that is war[/i], gruesomely put. [editline]1[/editline] And I haven't even gotten into the bit where if we [i]didn't[/i] nuke them, a mainland invasion would've been an absolute bloodbath on genocidal levels.

[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;50247709]I'm entirely willing to accept that nukes weren't absolutely necessary for ending the conflict in Japan. It was a complex situation, and there was a lot of room for nuance. That's the thing though. Even if the leaders at the time were aware that the nukes maybe weren't absolutely necessarily, maybe isn't good enough when you're talking about global conflict. Honestly, I kinda think choosing the option that immediately and assuredly put an end to any and all armed resistance was the pragmatic choice, even if diplomacy might have potentially been a valid option. I think the stakes might have just been too high for taking risks. And ultimately I think the responsibility lies on the Japanese leaders who started the whole affair and put the US in that position to begin with. Now, maybe I'm wrong. After all, I'm just some asshole. But I think the issue is at least subjective enough that you can't really say the US is morally obligated to apologize.[/QUOTE] The thing is, diplomacy wasn't working. Japan was ready to fight to the absolute last man, woman and child on their mainland. They had already lost their entire navy, their entire industry, and had both the United States and Soviet Union gearing up for invasions. They didn't surrender. What made them surrender was realizing that America had the capacity to get them down to that last man, woman and child without a single casualty of their own via bigass, terrifying bombs, so the idea of getting the enemy to bleed out while killing you kind of went down the drain.

[QUOTE=Riller;50247722]The thing is, diplomacy wasn't working. Japan was ready to fight to the absolute last man, woman and child on their mainland. They had already lost their entire navy, their entire industry, and had both the United States and Soviet Union gearing up for invasions. They didn't surrender. What made them surrender was realizing that America had the capacity to get them down to that last man, woman and child without a single casualty of their own via bigass, terrifying bombs, so the idea of getting the enemy to bleed out while killing you kind of went down the drain.[/QUOTE] Technically the invasion of Manchuria by the Soviets also contributed to their surrender.

[QUOTE=Starpluck;50247711]If you read the OP, you would see that the United States is not apologizing because they think it is justified but the fact that this is line with many of their historical tragedies. Some of which are "complete accidents" with no justification whatsoever. They shot down a civilian airliner killing 300 people, you'd think their immediate reaction would be "Oh shit, sorry for that!" not "I will never apologize for America"[/QUOTE] A single U.S. president is not the same as the entire U.S. An accidental killing of 300 people is not comparable to the well-weighed decision to end the war through nuclear bombings. Yes, Bush Sr. should have apologized and he was a shit. [I]He[/I] should. [I]He[/I] was a shit. That has nothing to do with Hiroshima or Nagasaki. Your argument makes zero sense. [editline]3rd May 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Novangel;50247726]Technically the invasion of Manchuria by the Soviets also contributed to their surrender.[/QUOTE] Because from Manchuria, the Soviets could cross over to mainland Japan. Nobody wants to get invaded by the Soviet Union. Getting invaded by 1940's USA isn't that bad. Getting invaded by 1940's soviet union-... Well, look at every country east of Berlin.

[QUOTE=Riller;50247729]A single U.S. president is not the same as the entire U.S. An accidental killing of 300 people is not comparable to the well-weighed decision to end the war through nuclear bombings. Yes, Bush Sr. should have apologized and he was a shit. [I]He[/I] should. [I]He[/I] was a shit. That has nothing to do with Hiroshima or Nagasaki. Your argument makes zero sense.[/QUOTE] It doesn't make sense to begin with because he dragged in something that happened nearly 40 years after World War 2 that's in a different part of the world, under different circumstances and with different factors.

[QUOTE=1/4 Life;50247616]And Obama isn't responsible for it. Nor are most of the people currently alive.[/QUOTE] That's not what the apology is about this is not making a 4 year old apologize for breaking a cup. [editline]3rd May 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;50247651]I don't know. Japan started a war with America, brutally massacred and subjugated the people of China and the Korean peninsula, and committed countless atrocities. I don't really think the US owes them an apology for bombing them. Like, all bombing is terrible. War is terrible. But they're the ones who started the war.[/QUOTE] Again, this is not the school yard. "But they started it FIRST" is childish and immature and it would show a lot of balls if the US apologized. [editline]3rd May 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=butre;50247710]germany shouldn't owe wwii reparations anymore. all the people responsible are dead[/QUOTE] The rammifications and consequences are not. Their children are not. My grandfather is not. My family that got split and displaced is not.

This was pretty well hashed out in [URL="https://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1514240"]this thread[/URL]. Our main argument for why the United States shouldn't apologize is that the nukes not only saved American lives, but also saved many more Japanese lives as well. Just read the thread I linked to, I don't want to repost all of the arguments again. Also I'd like to point out that if anybody else derailed like Starpluck just did in this thread, they would have been banned already.