[url]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-35295766[/url]
[quote]Iran has detained 10 US sailors after their vessels were stopped in the Gulf, a US official told the BBC.
"We lost contact with two small US naval craft en route from Kuwait to Bahrain," the official said.
He said that the Iranians informed the US that the sailors were safe and "will promptly be allowed to continue their journey".[/quote]
Boats or ships? Big difference
I cant imagine how the navy was just running BOATS around where they could be captured like this
[QUOTE=Bazsil;49516608]Boats or ships? Big difference
I cant imagine how the navy was just running BOATS around where they could be captured like this[/QUOTE]
Shitty ROE or being inside their territorial waters is probably what caused this.
Coming just days after some of their ships rolled up next to a carrier and fired off a bunch of missiles, this seems rather aggressive.
[QUOTE=Bazsil;49516608]Boats or ships? Big difference
I cant imagine how the navy was just running BOATS around where they could be captured like this[/QUOTE]
Read the article
The article says one of the boats had mechanical issues
Where does it say these guys were in the navy, as opposed to just civilian sailors from the US?
[editline]e[/editline]
confirmed for navy:
[url]http://www.cnn.com/2016/01/12/politics/10-u-s-sailors-in-iranian-custody/index.html[/url]
[QUOTE=Cyke Lon bee;49516616]Shitty ROE or being inside their territorial waters is probably what caused this.[/QUOTE]
One of the boats ran aground, and the Iranians moved in to pick them up. There shouldn't be too much trouble with this, Iran is going to repatriate them soon and has no reason to keep them under arrest in the country.
[QUOTE=Milkdairy;49516833]Read the article[/QUOTE]
It's almost as if articles can update, smartass
[img]http://i.imgur.com/0CWZWdv.png[/img]
Boats apparently had mechanical trouble and drifted into Iran's waters.
Probably not a huge deal if Iran lets them go quickly enough. Hopefully, nothing develops from it.
Quite a move, after firing missiles near a carrier not too long ago.
[QUOTE=Bazsil;49516608]Boats or ships? Big difference
I cant imagine how the navy was just running BOATS around where they could be captured like this[/QUOTE]
Boats like this
[img]http://imgkk.com/i/97wv.jpg[/img]
[QUOTE=smurfy;49517143]Boats like this
[img]http://imgkk.com/i/97wv.jpg[/img][/QUOTE]
Navy Riverine, they're our Brown/shallow water patrol units. Article says they'll be allowed to continue on their way shortly no big deal.
Actually passed up the chance to get orders to a RIVRON awhile back.
U.S sailors briefly stopped by Iranian navy as security precaution, before being allowed to continue journey. Let's get ready for war, guys, they basically just nuked us.
[QUOTE=Bazsil;49516941]It's almost as if articles can update, smartass
[img]http://i.imgur.com/0CWZWdv.png[/img][/QUOTE]
Well sorry friend :/
It's been reported that they released the crew at around 0530 EST
[QUOTE=Michael haxz;49521014]It's been reported that they released the crew at around 0530 EST[/QUOTE]
Nice to see an adversary acting civilized for once.
George Takei has already made a post saying his thoughts and prayers are with their families lmao
Eh that was quick.
I think part of whats going on in Iran is you have two factions. One that constantly still wants to see the US and the West as the enemy. And another that just wants to move on with life.
[QUOTE=Kigen;49522895]I think part of whats going on in Iran is you have two factions. One that constantly still wants to see the US and the West as the enemy. And another that just wants to move on with life.[/QUOTE]
Rouhani's influence has helped make the moderates in Iran move forward, his work with the deal we worked on has also helped with his credibility as well.
There's been videos out on the capture of the boat and the crews humane treatment afterwards and so far this incident has been handled perfectly by the Iranians. I'm hoping this trend continues.
Fox is flipping shit about how the officers on board apologized for getting into Iranian waters, as well as the US government saying "Hey thanks for not imprisoning our guys"
[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;49525148]Fox is flipping shit about how the officers on board apologized for getting into Iranian waters, as well as the US government saying "Hey thanks for not imprisoning our guys"[/QUOTE]
The line I heard was "How can the President constantly be humiliated like this?", and I am sitting here wondering if they think he went out there and fucked their boat up so Iran can get some points or something.
Too many people get up in arms about something that [b]does not concern them whatsoever[/b], but they'll sit back and watch as those same people keep wasting tax dollars drawing a salary while Congress has been basically useless over the past eight years more or less.
Ladies and gentlemen, let's call this what it is. Maritime Terrorism.
The Iranian Navy and naval branch of the Revolutionary Guards have a pretty heinous record of doing this; such as the kidnapping of British naval personnel in 2007 and seizing of the Maersk Tigris in early 2015. The long and short of it is that Iran has traditionally (For centuries and centuries) viewed the Persian Gulf as its' private lake. The name might be somewhat of a hint.
And under the current theocracy, they're trying to bully, harass, and intimidate people they don't want off of "their property" and have for years. Almost always claiming the violators went into their territorial waters (which is no real defense as I'll cover later, especially since the Iranian government is Heinously Bad at marking or clarifying where those waters are). Almost always armtwisting and threatening people to make public apologies saying they were wrong before releasing.
It's almost like catch and release in fishing, but that much worse.
Contrary to what Vice President Biden said, this is NOT standard nautical procedure. Even if we decide to take a totalitarian terrorist state at its' word (and why the heck should we? Even among totalitarian terror states they're pretty notorious liars), it isn't much justification.
Most of the time nations going into each others' territorial waters in the capacity any version of this story claims is Not News. it just happens all the time, and is dealt with without Islamist re-enactments of Pirates of the Caribbean.
If you have an unwanted craft in your territorial waters, you *get the craft OUT of your territorial waters.* If need be you can frog march them out at gunpoint if you have to.
If for whatever reason they cannot immediately depart (say- they have a mechanical issue) you can take them and give whatever the bare minimum aid is to have them do so, THEN kick them out.
Seizing the ships and crew is only meant to be done if it is [B]obvious[/B] that the ship is violating your waters, and is patently defying or ignoring your instructions.
The fact that this has happened time and time again where the "Islamic Republic" is concerned tells me this isn't a problem with Britain, or the US, or the Marshall Islands, or the Kuwaitis. it's with them.
This wasn't justified under any scenario *anyone* has put forward. It is not how you row, row, row a boat. it is not standard nautical procedure.
Even the Age of Sail Royal Navy- which could be quite douchy in its' own right- didn't do this kind of stuff. If they caught you in their waters and they thought you had a case, they would haul you before an Admiralty Court to try and make it stick. They would not give two hoots about dragging an apology out of you.
And if the IRGC truly believed it had been wronged, that is what they should have done.
But they haven't, and they probably never will. Gee, I wonder why?
[QUOTE=MattSif;49523021]Rouhani's influence has helped make the moderates in Iran move forward, his work with the deal we worked on has also helped with his credibility as well.[/QUOTE]
The grand "Moderate"-"Hardliner" faction is- for the purposes of any external power- a glorified shell game. And should be treated as such.
That isn't to say there aren't genuine differences, there are (sort of like the Imperial Japanese conflict between the Hardliner Imperial Way and the "Moderate" Tosheiha over what kind of expansionist, totalitarian dictatorship they wanted). Rouhani has stained his blood as much as anybody and hasa signed on to the same Islamist principles that anybody taking part in the "Islamic Republic"'s higher governance has to.
Including taking marching orders from the Guardian Council, who remain as hardline as ever.
[QUOTE=MattSif;49523021]There's been videos out on the capture of the boat and the crews humane treatment afterwards and so far this incident has been handled perfectly by the Iranians. I'm hoping this trend continues.[/QUOTE]
Being browbeaten into giving an apology for thin pretexts does not constitute human treatment. it didn't when the Kim Dynasty did it to the crew of the USS Pueblo, so why apply it to the Revolutionary Guard and not the North Koreans?
And if they handled this Perfectly, this shouldn't have even made the news. But they didn't.
[QUOTE=MattSif;49526368]Too many people get up in arms about something that [b]does not concern them whatsoever[/b] [/QUOTE]
I'd beg to differ, even though I don't know anyone who is a sailor.
Freedom of the seas is one of the oldest cornerstones of American foreign policy. And if you allow a militant, terror sponsoring theocracy to close down one of the centers of international trade and declare it [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mare_clausum[/url] that is something that will concern people. And certainly should.
They failed to impose it by force of arms (as Op Praying Mantis showed) and they aren't prepared to fight off a CAG in hot battle, but that is still the aim they are trying to do.
[QUOTE=Turtler;49526393]Ladies and gentlemen, let's call this what it is. Maritime Terrorism.
The Iranian Navy and naval branch of the Revolutionary Guards have a pretty heinous record of doing this; such as the kidnapping of British naval personnel in 2007 and seizing of the Maersk Tigris in early 2015. The long and short of it is that Iran has traditionally (For centuries and centuries) viewed the Persian Gulf as its' private lake. The name might be somewhat of a hint.
And under the current theocracy, they're trying to bully, harass, and intimidate people they don't want off of "their property" and have for years. Almost always claiming the violators went into their territorial waters (which is no real defense as I'll cover later, especially since the Iranian government is Heinously Bad at marking or clarifying where those waters are). Almost always armtwisting and threatening people to make public apologies saying they were wrong before releasing.
It's almost like catch and release in fishing, but that much worse.
Contrary to what Vice President Biden said, this is NOT standard nautical procedure. Even if we decide to take a totalitarian terrorist state at its' word (and why the heck should we? Even among totalitarian terror states they're pretty notorious liars), it isn't much justification.
Most of the time nations going into each others' territorial waters in the capacity any version of this story claims is Not News. it just happens all the time, and is dealt with without Islamist re-enactments of Pirates of the Caribbean.
If you have an unwanted craft in your territorial waters, you *get the craft OUT of your territorial waters.* If need be you can frog march them out at gunpoint if you have to.
If for whatever reason they cannot immediately depart (say- they have a mechanical issue) you can take them and give whatever the bare minimum aid is to have them do so, THEN kick them out.
Seizing the ships and crew is only meant to be done if it is [B]obvious[/B] that the ship is violating your waters, and is patently defying or ignoring your instructions.
The fact that this has happened time and time again where the "Islamic Republic" is concerned tells me this isn't a problem with Britain, or the US, or the Marshall Islands, or the Kuwaitis. it's with them.
This wasn't justified under any scenario *anyone* has put forward. It is not how you row, row, row a boat. it is not standard nautical procedure.
Even the Age of Sail Royal Navy- which could be quite douchy in its' own right- didn't do this kind of stuff. If they caught you in their waters and they thought you had a case, they would haul you before an Admiralty Court to try and make it stick. They would not give two hoots about dragging an apology out of you.
And if the IRGC truly believed it had been wronged, that is what they should have done.
But they haven't, and they probably never will. Gee, I wonder why?
The grand "Moderate"-"Hardliner" faction is- for the purposes of any external power- a glorified shell game. And should be treated as such.
That isn't to say there aren't genuine differences, there are (sort of like the Imperial Japanese conflict between the Hardliner Imperial Way and the "Moderate" Tosheiha over what kind of expansionist, totalitarian dictatorship they wanted). Rouhani has stained his blood as much as anybody and hasa signed on to the same Islamist principles that anybody taking part in the "Islamic Republic"'s higher governance has to.
Including taking marching orders from the Guardian Council, who remain as hardline as ever.
Being browbeaten into giving an apology for thin pretexts does not constitute human treatment. it didn't when the Kim Dynasty did it to the crew of the USS Pueblo, so why apply it to the Revolutionary Guard and not the North Koreans?
And if they handled this Perfectly, this shouldn't have even made the news. But they didn't.
I'd beg to differ, even though I don't know anyone who is a sailor.
Freedom of the seas is one of the oldest cornerstones of American foreign policy. And if you allow a militant, terror sponsoring theocracy to close down one of the centers of international trade and declare it [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mare_clausum[/url] that is something that will concern people. And certainly should.
They failed to impose it by force of arms (as Op Praying Mantis showed) and they aren't prepared to fight off a CAG in hot battle, but that is still the aim they are trying to do.[/QUOTE]
I'll just be honest, I read your post and I just see someone who thinks that a huge post will cover up the fact you forgot that the USS Pueblo was fired upon and several crew members were killed. After that they were tortured and starved and treated no better then common criminals. The American crew members of these ships were briefly detained, interviewed, and then released back on to their ships and allowed to leave.
With the context of US - Iranian relations that's fucking being handled very nicely compared to what could have happened.
[QUOTE=Turtler;49526393]Ladies and gentlemen, let's call this what it is. Maritime Terrorism.
The Iranian Navy and naval branch of the Revolutionary Guards have a pretty heinous record of doing this; such as the kidnapping of British naval personnel in 2007 and seizing of the Maersk Tigris in early 2015. The long and short of it is that Iran has traditionally (For centuries and centuries) viewed the Persian Gulf as its' private lake. The name might be somewhat of a hint.
And under the current theocracy, they're trying to bully, harass, and intimidate people they don't want off of "their property" and have for years. Almost always claiming the violators went into their territorial waters (which is no real defense as I'll cover later, especially since the Iranian government is Heinously Bad at marking or clarifying where those waters are). Almost always armtwisting and threatening people to make public apologies saying they were wrong before releasing.
It's almost like catch and release in fishing, but that much worse.
Contrary to what Vice President Biden said, this is NOT standard nautical procedure. Even if we decide to take a totalitarian terrorist state at its' word (and why the heck should we? Even among totalitarian terror states they're pretty notorious liars), it isn't much justification.
Most of the time nations going into each others' territorial waters in the capacity any version of this story claims is Not News. it just happens all the time, and is dealt with without Islamist re-enactments of Pirates of the Caribbean.
If you have an unwanted craft in your territorial waters, you *get the craft OUT of your territorial waters.* If need be you can frog march them out at gunpoint if you have to.
If for whatever reason they cannot immediately depart (say- they have a mechanical issue) you can take them and give whatever the bare minimum aid is to have them do so, THEN kick them out.
Seizing the ships and crew is only meant to be done if it is [B]obvious[/B] that the ship is violating your waters, and is patently defying or ignoring your instructions.
The fact that this has happened time and time again where the "Islamic Republic" is concerned tells me this isn't a problem with Britain, or the US, or the Marshall Islands, or the Kuwaitis. it's with them.
This wasn't justified under any scenario *anyone* has put forward. It is not how you row, row, row a boat. it is not standard nautical procedure.
Even the Age of Sail Royal Navy- which could be quite douchy in its' own right- didn't do this kind of stuff. If they caught you in their waters and they thought you had a case, they would haul you before an Admiralty Court to try and make it stick. They would not give two hoots about dragging an apology out of you.
And if the IRGC truly believed it had been wronged, that is what they should have done.
But they haven't, and they probably never will. Gee, I wonder why?
The grand "Moderate"-"Hardliner" faction is- for the purposes of any external power- a glorified shell game. And should be treated as such.
That isn't to say there aren't genuine differences, there are (sort of like the Imperial Japanese conflict between the Hardliner Imperial Way and the "Moderate" Tosheiha over what kind of expansionist, totalitarian dictatorship they wanted). Rouhani has stained his blood as much as anybody and hasa signed on to the same Islamist principles that anybody taking part in the "Islamic Republic"'s higher governance has to.
Including taking marching orders from the Guardian Council, who remain as hardline as ever.
Being browbeaten into giving an apology for thin pretexts does not constitute human treatment. it didn't when the Kim Dynasty did it to the crew of the USS Pueblo, so why apply it to the Revolutionary Guard and not the North Koreans?
And if they handled this Perfectly, this shouldn't have even made the news. But they didn't.
[B]
I'd beg to differ, even though I don't know anyone who is a sailor.[/B]
Freedom of the seas is one of the oldest cornerstones of American foreign policy. And if you allow a militant, terror sponsoring theocracy to close down one of the centers of international trade and declare it [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mare_clausum[/url] that is something that will concern people. And certainly should.
They failed to impose it by force of arms (as Op Praying Mantis showed) and they aren't prepared to fight off a CAG in hot battle, but that is still the aim they are trying to do.[/QUOTE]
US Sailor here, ur dumb.
[QUOTE=MattSif;49526543]I'll just be honest, I read your post and I just see someone who thinks that a huge post will cover up the fact you forgot that the USS Pueblo was fired upon and several crew members were killed.[/QUOTE]
Firstly: I note you didn't even bother to address my other points. Like the fact that this thing is horrendously common in the Persian Gulf.
Secondly: I didn't forget. The fact that there were difference sin the specifics (and a few extra crimes slapped onto what the NorKs did) is a valid point.
But it doesn't change the fact that all ships involved were seized in legally dubious waters- and in absolutely inappropriate circumstances for nautical tradition- and their crews were forced to "apologize" in a propaganda farce.
Those crimes remain the same. And if we're not going to give the North Koreans the benefit of the doubt for violating the same principles (albeit in different- and worse- ways) why should we do this to the Iranians?
We were lucky it happened in 2016. The things Iran's conventional navy and "mosquito fleet" did to Arab tankers supplying Saddam during the Iran-Iraq war could well match what the Kims did.
[QUOTE=MattSif;49526543]After that they were tortured and starved and treated no better then common criminals.[/QUOTE]
Common criminals in North Korea tended to be treated better (even at the time) than the Pueblo servicemen were. And again- that doesn't change the basic fact.
That the Iranians still had no just grounds to seize the ships and hold the people hostage, much like the North Korean Navy did not. And if you allow a bully to get emboldened, they will likely do worse.
[QUOTE=MattSif;49526543]The American crew members of these ships were briefly detained, interviewed, and then released back on to their ships and allowed to leave.
With the context of US - Iranian relations that's fucking being handled very nicely compared to what could have happened.[/QUOTE]
Sure, and I agree. And for what it is worth I am glad nothing has happened here.
But there's a vast gap between "what could have happened" and "how things Should have been happened."
And the fact of the matter is that the Iranian dictatorship has an longer and uglier history of waylaying vulnerable ships and sailors than the North Korean one does. The fact that they have played relatively nice for the last couple of years in their form of piracy is something I can appreciate.
But it certainly doesn't mean there isn't a reason to complain. Or reasons to fear they won't be worse down the line.
[QUOTE=Cocacoladude;49526568]US Sailor here, ur dumb.[/QUOTE]
How so?
Apples to oranges man.
[QUOTE=soulharvester;49526662]Apples to oranges man.[/QUOTE]
Not really.
For one, the seizing of ships in both cases were violations of the same maritime laws (though how they did so- and the other ones they violated- were different).
For two, the Iranian Navy and Naval Rev Guard can and has done things as bloody and harsh as the Pueblo attack. It just hasn't done it *recently*.
But if you showed an overview of how the Pueblo was attacked to a Saudi or Kuwaiti tanker who worked during '87 or early 88 (the height of the bloody tanker attacks), they would have a lot to recognize sans ship type.
Well, that and the fact that the Iranian Navy tended to not bother with prisoner taking.
They seized the ship and then released it. For how terrible our national relations are with Iran, it is generally about the best that can be expected.
[QUOTE=GunFox;49526696]They seized the ship and then released it. For how terrible our national relations are with Iran, it is generally about the best that can be expected.[/QUOTE]
Maybe. But I don't think that should excuse them.
Our relations with the Soviets and Cubans were Much, Much worse in 1961 and '62 than ours have been with Iran (which is saying something, given the unrevoked declaration of war bit). But we didn't do this kind of stuff.
If the USN had done this to Russian patrol craft in the Bering Strait, there would be an uproar and people would call for the heads of those responsible. And rightfully so. So why should we believe the Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corps should have an exemption?
If the best we can expect from Iranian maritime craft is a kinder, gentler breaking of the rules of the nautical road then there's something deeply wrong already.
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.
