• 52% of Catalans support dissolving government, 55% oppose declaration of independence - poll
    18 replies, posted
Spanish-language source! I found this buried in a BBC article and thought it was interesting, and the original source is a major Spanish newspaper and is [url=https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/el-pais/]fine on MBFC[/url] so I guess here goes BBC article: [url]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41791446[/url] [quote]A poll published by Spanish national newspaper El Pais on Saturday suggests more Catalans (52% to 43%) are in favour of the dissolution of the regional parliament and the holding of elections. Fifty-five per cent of Catalan respondents opposed the declaration of independence, with 41% in favour.[/quote] Original source (google translated from Spanish) [url]https://politica.elpais.com/politica/2017/10/28/actualidad/1509189971_913953.html[/url] [quote]The call for elections to restore institutional normalcy to Catalonia was the preference of most Catalans before the President of the Government, Mariano Rajoy, opted for the formal activation of Article 155 of the Constitution. 52% of Catalans are in favor of dissolving the Parlament to hold regional elections, compared to 43% who reject it, according to a Metroscopia poll for EL PAÍS. This measure seduces even one of every three voters of the party of former president Carles Puigdemont. Constitutionalist parties have been demanding autonomy elections in Catalonia for many months to try to resolve the situation. The independentistas parties had been against it insistently with the argument that the important thing was to celebrate the independentist referendum of the past 1 of October and to "apply" its results by more than they had been suspended by the Constitutional Court and without any type of legal guarantee . It was not until 15 days ago when, within sovereignty, voices began to be heard calling for elections. The most clear was that of former President Artur Mas, initiator of the sovereign process. His successor, Carles Puigdemont, resisted this idea despite having very close collaborators who recommended this route, starting with resigned councilor Santi Vila.[/quote] [quote]The declaration of independence made by the Government was not the majority option. 55% of Catalans rejected that option last Tuesday, a figure two points higher than the one recorded in the last poll of just a month ago. The unilateral declaration of independence is defended by 41%, a figure six points lower than that of the Catalans who in the last elections voted for the pro-independence parties that have ended up driving it.[/quote] [t]https://i.imgur.com/WII3LFu.png[/t]
Just like Brexit, this percentage should not be enough for something as big as independence. They should require a supermajority. Past opinion polls show similar back and forth just around the 50% mark. [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_independence_referendum,_2017#Opinion_polls[/url]
[QUOTE=Mitsuma;52831869]Just like Brexit, this percentage should not be enough for something as big as independence. They should require a supermajority. Past opinion polls show similar back and forth just around the 50% mark. [URL]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_independence_referendum,_2017#Opinion_polls[/URL][/QUOTE] But we can't ever know if Spain won't allow a referendum. 50/50 mark with the referendum being declared illegal is dangerous territory.
It's almost as if the "No Independence" vote had not boycotted the referendum, this all could have been avoided.
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;52832032]It's almost as if the "No Independence" vote had not boycotted the referendum, this all could have been avoided.[/QUOTE] Declared independence anyway despite the botched non-approved referendum and the reluctance of the President himself, Catalonia fucked up. The entire world knows this, that's why nobody is recognizing them.
[QUOTE=Gwoodman;52832063]Declared independence anyway despite the botched non-approved referendum and the reluctance of the President himself, Catalonia fucked up. The entire world knows this, that's why nobody is recognizing them.[/QUOTE] nobody is recognizing them because they don't want to piss off spain.
I say if it's advantageous to the Catalonians, they should take it, especially after the big man child Spain is acting like.
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;52832032]It's almost as if the "No Independence" vote had not boycotted the referendum, this all could have been avoided.[/QUOTE] Well the referendum was illegal. If I was Catalan and against independence I wouldn't have participated in it either.
[QUOTE=Sableye;52832130]nobody is recognizing them because they don't want to piss off spain.[/QUOTE] Piss off Spain? Are you implying they are denying recognition out of fear? They know that Catalonia played all the wrong cards and won't go anywhere with this as even if they succeed in independence, they'll fail as a trading partner and ally. There's no reason for them to support Catalonia, they know how world politics work, a Spain with a tighter grip on Catalonia is better than having to manage relations and trade with a broken Spain and a new nation that has nothing to back itself up. That's why.
I think a huge problem people tend to not take into account with Catalonia and Brexit. Is that the splitting of nations into smaller ones or the breaking apart of large Geopolitical Alliances or Empires is never, ever, pretty. Thankfully in this day's age. The largest/powerful nations of the world are armed with nuclear weaponry and other types of weapons that can cause M.A.D. Which has sorta created a barrier that makes the expansions of these nations null. Though, if Europe, Russia, the USA, and China split apart into smaller nations. This basically destroys this barrier. Allowing these smaller nations to attack one another without the fear of M.A.D. Sure they would probably have nuclear weaponry at their disposal. But if two smaller nations wanted to launch nuclear weapons at one another, would result in both becoming irradiated wasteland with nothing left to use or expand their own power. Considering their much smaller land area. These smaller nations will begin to use conventional warfare again. If shit keeps repeating like Catalonia and Brexit across Europe or across the rest of the planet. We won't have a WW3. But a mess of small proxy wars or wars of conquest as these smaller nations begin to cannibalize one another. And this is exactly what Russia wants. The starved dogs will scuffle amongst themselves. As the Great Bear waits nearby. Waiting to dig its corrupted, yellowish teeth into the pathetic mongrels.
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;52832032]It's almost as if the "No Independence" vote had not boycotted the referendum, this all could have been avoided.[/QUOTE] Which they wouldn't have done if the Spanish government hadn't decided to send in the Police. So, its almost like the Spanish Government fucked it all up.
A huge anti-independence rally is taking place in Barcelona, hundreds of thousands are taking part [url]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41794087[/url]
Spanish government did a shitty job of handling this, they could've given Catalans a referendum, sat back and watched it fail - instead they forced people's hands and tried to approach the problem with a hammer instead of a pen.
There isn't a clear cut party to blame here. Spain screwed up by sending in the troops early on and radicalizing Catalonia. They should have escalated things more slowly and possibly offered a referendum (although I'm not sure they would have ever done that because it would risk legitimizing independence movements in all of Spain). Catalonia screwed up by holding an illegal referendum, and then using a simple majority from that flawed vote to declare independence and rub salt in Madrid's eyes. Both sides' governments are getting what they deserve, although I give my thoughts for people in both Catalonia and Castile that they make it through this healthily and strong.
[QUOTE=Craigewan;52833270]Which they wouldn't have done if the Spanish government hadn't decided to send in the Police. So, its almost like the Spanish Government fucked it all up.[/QUOTE] Pretty sure I read that the anti-independence side decided to boycott it days and days before the actual vote, and before the police were sent. [editline]29th October 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Darth Ninja;52832434]Well the referendum was illegal. If I was Catalan and against independence I wouldn't have participated in it either.[/QUOTE] And that's why the referendum got such an overwhelming yes vote. Really could have snipped this in the bud, legality or not. It would be pretty amazing if the pro-independence side pushed this illegal referendum to happen only to have an overwhelming no vote for it.
[QUOTE=Trebgarta;52834337]Why gamble on a no victory when you can abstain and deny the legitimacy to an ILLEGAL referendum? .[/QUOTE] Because if it's illegal, the number of people voting won't change that let alone the legitimacy of it. It literally would not have hurt anything in that regard.
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