• As the health care ruling shock wears off the GOP, they realize they have won politically if not in
    62 replies, posted
[QUOTE]Washington (CNN) -- As House Speaker John Boehner sat with the top House GOP leaders and aides in his office Thursday morning watching TV news reports that the Supreme Court had upheld President Barack Obama's health care law, the initial reaction was shock. Republican leaders were prepared for the various outcomes the high court might issue, according to House GOP sources in the meeting, but they were caught off guard when they learned conservative Chief Justice John Roberts was the deciding vote. [B]But as the details sank in and they read the surprising legal explanation written by Roberts, they realized they might have lost at the court but won politically.[/B] The chief justice decided that the individual mandate in the law that required Americans to carry health insurance was a tax, which Congress was allowed to levy. Republicans seized on that argument and planned to turn it to their advantage. [B]The high court had just validated one of the main points the GOP made against the health care bill throughout the 2009 debate. It served up a message they could hammer from now until Election Day: Democrats want to tax Americans and unless you put Mitt Romney in the White House and vote for a GOP House and Senate, they will do it again.[/B] Boiling down the health care decision, Boehner told reporters a couple of hours later, "The government could decide that we're going to tax you if you don't eat broccoli on Tuesday. Apparently, that's not unconstitutional. But I don't think it's a very wise law." Republican leaders announced they would follow through on their pledge to repeal the law, or any piece of it, if it was upheld. House Majority Leader Eric Cantor said on his way into a meeting with rank and file members in the Capitol basement that the House would again vote to roll back the health care law -- as it did in January -- right after it returned from its weeklong Fourth of July recess. The closed-door meeting to discuss the court's ruling was described as "a little bit somber" by Idaho Republican Rep. Raul Labrador. He said the court's decision "was a little bit surprising." But Labrador quickly pivoted to the tax message: "The bottom line is that the Supreme Court has said now that Congress has the authority and power to tax everyone for anything at any time, and the American people should be afraid of that." [B]During the health care debate in 2009, President Obama argued that the individual mandate was not a tax.[/B] In an interview with ABC, Obama said, "For us to say that you've got to take a responsibility to get health insurance is absolutely not a tax increase. What it's saying is, is that we're not going to have other people carrying your burdens for you anymore than the fact that right now everybody in America, just about, has to get auto insurance. Nobody considers that a tax increase." Freshman Republican Rep. Dave Schweikert of Arizona pointed to that argument from the president, which he said his Democratic opponent -- then-Rep. Harry Mitchell -- also made arguing the mandate was not a tax. [B]"We have a White House and we have a Democratic Party that moved this forward swearing it wasn't, now we see the truth," Schweikert said.[/B] Seizing on Roberts' ruling, the House GOP's campaign arm splashed a picture on its Facebook page on Friday -- the one snapped in 2010 when Vice President Biden famously hugged President Obama during a White House ceremony when he signed the health care bill and called it "a big f---ing deal." But the caption on the GOP's version read, "This is a Big F***ing Tax." Rep. Pete Sessions of Texas, who heads the National Republican Congressional Committee, told reporters Friday that GOP candidates will make a major issue of the court's proclamation that the health care mandate amounted to a tax. "Chief Justice Roberts has now distinguished and I think highlighted it -- this is a tax and Congress has an ability to tax you," Sessions said. He added, "We will call it what it is -- it is a tax." Sessions said talking about the threat of new taxes works hand-in-hand with the GOP's focus on the economy. Perhaps previewing what could show up in campaign spots, he said there would be "17,000 IRS agents who will be added to the workforce for the sole purpose of enforcing this tax." Republican congressional aides had already planned to make repealing health care a centerpiece of their fall campaign message. But Roberts' decision gave them new ammunition and talking points in an area -- taxes -- where public opinion polls frequently show the Democratic Party can be vulnerable. House Democratic Leader Nancy Pelosi wouldn't directly answer when asked by a reporter on Thursday about the court's ruling that the mandate in the health care law was a tax. "Call it what you will, it is a step forward for America's families," Pelosi said. [B]She downplayed the new debate over Roberts' decision as "Washington talk"[/B] and emphasized the benefits of the law for those with pre-existing conditions who will now be able to get coverage. Pressed if she was concerned about political fallout, Pelosi brushed off the question, telling reporters, "The politics be damned, this is about what we came to do." While the GOP moved to reframe the debate over health care, Democrats criticized Republicans for ignoring the economy and re-fighting a battle from two years ago. The Democratic campaign committee blasted out press releases about the 60 House Republicans it is targeting in November. Jesse Ferguson, the spokesman for the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee, said of freshman Rep. Sean Duffy, R-Wisconsin, "Rather than working to create jobs by strengthening the middle class, Congressman Duffy wants to put insurance companies back in charge of health care: taking away critical patient protections, denying coverage to people with pre-existing conditions like asthma, heart disease or cancer and raising prescription drug costs for seniors."[/QUOTE] Source: [url]http://www.cnn.com/2012/06/29/politics/gop-health-care/index.html[/url]
Fucking tards.
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2O1ixMU2Plg[/media]
Since when is taxing a bad thing? Do republicans want an anarchic society out of Robocop or something? They've gone out of hand in the name of principles.
[QUOTE=mac338;36571838]Since when is taxing a bad thing? Do republicans want an anarchic society out of Robocop or something? They've gone out of hand in the name of principles.[/QUOTE] But Mr. Sagan, many Republican voters don't understand the connection between taxation, infrastructure, and social security! They just think the government is stealing their money for greedy politicians!
[QUOTE=mac338;36571838]Since when is taxing a bad thing? Do republicans want an anarchic society out of Robocop or something? They've gone out of hand in the name of principles.[/QUOTE] They don't like taxes because big government obamacare socialism. If there were higher taxes then AY-rab terrorist commies and we couldn't constitution, guns, holy bible.
[QUOTE=Janus Vesta;36571880]They don't like taxes because big government obamacare socialism. If there were higher taxes then AY-rab terrorist commies and we couldn't constitution, guns, holy bible.[/QUOTE] I like how your sentences start off legible and then rapidly degrade into catchphrases for republicans. It amuses me.
They don't like taxes because they feel it hinders people's freedom to chose what they wish to do with their own property [their money]. By the government taxing people, it is forcing them to take whatever the government gives them with their own cash instead of people choosing what they personally want with their own money. That's the basic principle, at least. Agree with it, disagree with it, say what you will but at least understand the underlying reasons behind your opponent's beliefs and words.
"Only two things are certain. Death and Taxes." ~ [I]Henry Clay[/I]
[quote=John Boner]The government could decide that we're going to tax you if you don't eat broccoli on Tuesday. Apparently, that's not unconstitutional.[/quote] That slope is so slippery it might as well be made of bacon grease.
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;36571893]They don't like taxes because they feel it hinders people's freedom to chose what they wish to do with their own property [their money]. By the government taxing people, it is forcing them to take whatever the government gives them with their own cash instead of people choosing what they personally want with their own money. That's the basic principle, at least. Agree with it, disagree with it, say what you will but at least understand the underlying reasons behind your opponent's beliefs and words.[/QUOTE] Yes, but the part that makes no sense whatsoever is how the Republican party plans to reduce taxes and reduce the deficit at the same time without cutting non-essential parts of the budget. Apparently money comes out of nowhere.
[QUOTE=rinoaff33;36572317]Yes, but the part that makes no sense whatsoever is how the Republican party plans to reduce taxes and reduce the deficit at the same time without cutting non-essential parts of the budget. Apparently money comes out of nowhere.[/QUOTE] No where did I say it was practical :v:
Watch how quickly the system will fall apart when healthy young people just decide to pay this "tax" for a few hundred dollars per year, rather than buy ridiculously expensive health insurance at thousands of dollars per year. The only people signing up for "health insurance" will be the sick and elderly, sending "premiums" into the stratosphere because they will need to cover all these costs for these sick people but without revenue from the healthy to do so. If these are the only people signing up, then it isn't even insurance because there is no actual risk involved, they're already guaranteed virtually 100% to need the care, so it's really just a form of prepaid health care, not insurance (hence the quotes in the previous sentence). I don't know why the government just seems to have such a hard time ever telling the truth, if their intention is to completely socialize health care, then they might as well just come out and say it. The true way to fix our problem with health care lies in free market competition, not government intervention, but even a single-payer universal health care (which I don't support), with all its ethical and logistical issues aside, would make much more [i]economic sense[/i] than what the federal government is trying to do to the health industry in this country right now. Mandatory guaranteed issue (insurance companies can't deny someone with pre-existing conditions) and community rating (forcing insurance companies to charge the same rate to everyone - this is effectively making the young and healthy pay more for the benefit of the elderly and sick) are going to send premiums skyrocketing because they have to cover these new costs introduced into the system. [i]This is going to result in less healthy people purchasing health insurance[/i]. Health insurance [b]needs[/b] young and healthy people paying in to the system and the system will inevitably collapse without them doing so and this is why they put the individual mandate in there. Obama's health care law is so bad that you almost have to wonder if this is a deliberate government sabotage of the health care industry, so that when the system collapses, they can just blame capitalism, greed, and the free market, and then propose that the solution is more government (likely a universal health care system).
The problem most republicans have with taxes is that America is a very inefficent government system at getting things done fast/efficently, to the point where a lot of money gets wasted. It was also a government founded basically on the principles of avoiding unfair taxation, and limiting government power. So from a true conservative mindset: 1. Government culture founded from avoiding high taxation that we previously suffered from by Britian before the US was its own country. 2. Powerful government is unpopular 3. Because of the nature of Checks & Balances, it makes our government more inefficent than European ones where the governing body has more power. As such, a lot of tax dollars tend to get "wasted" or aren't able to be efficently and quickly used. So, high taxes are unpopular because it is burning money, when the people themselves could use that money. It sorta makes sense, but instead of improving the status quo and how the government functions to better work in a current global society, there's a lot of tradition in place, and a lot of people who think the status quo right now is ideal, given the proper conditions (limited power of government over states and population, low taxes, etc).
"We're going to eliminate taxes, cut spending, and lower the debt at the same time."
Everyone gets free crack
[QUOTE=Janus Vesta;36571880]They don't like taxes because big government obamacare socialism. If there were higher taxes then AY-rab terrorist commies and we couldn't constitution, guns, holy bible.[/QUOTE] post of the year
[QUOTE=Noble;36572596]Watch how quickly the system will fall apart when healthy young people just decide to pay this "tax" for a few hundred dollars per year, rather than buy ridiculously expensive health insurance at thousands of dollars per year. The only people signing up for "health insurance" will be the sick and elderly, sending "premiums" into the stratosphere because they will need to cover all these costs for these sick people but without revenue from the healthy to do so. If these are the only people signing up, then it isn't even insurance because there is no actual risk involved, they're already guaranteed virtually 100% to need the care, so it's really just a form of prepaid health care, not insurance (hence the quotes in the previous sentence). I don't know why the government just seems to have such a hard time ever telling the truth, if their intention is to completely socialize health care, then they might as well just come out and say it. The true way to fix our problem with health care lies in free market competition, not government intervention, but even a single-payer universal health care (which I don't support), with all its ethical and logistical issues aside, would make much more [i]economic sense[/i] than what the federal government is trying to do to the health industry in this country right now. Mandatory guaranteed issue (insurance companies can't deny someone with pre-existing conditions) and community rating (forcing insurance companies to charge the same rate to everyone - this is effectively making the young and healthy pay more for the benefit of the elderly and sick) are going to send premiums skyrocketing because they have to cover these new costs introduced into the system. [i]This is going to result in less healthy people purchasing health insurance[/i]. Health insurance [b]needs[/b] young and healthy people paying in to the system and the system will inevitably collapse without them doing so and this is why they put the individual mandate in there. Obama's health care law is so bad that you almost have to wonder if this is a deliberate government sabotage of the health care industry, so that when the system collapses, they can just blame capitalism, greed, and the free market, and then propose that the solution is more government (likely a universal health care system).[/QUOTE] So, I'm not understanding where you're getting this whole, "young people won't get health insurance!" idea from. I'm young. I'm reasonably healthy. I'm currently covered by my parent's insurance, but if I wasn't, I would definitely get some. I can't speak for everyone, but neither can you. [editline]1st July 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;36571893]They don't like taxes because they feel it hinders people's freedom to chose what they wish to do with their own property [their money]. By the government taxing people, it is forcing them to take whatever the government gives them with their own cash instead of people choosing what they personally want with their own money. That's the basic principle, at least. Agree with it, disagree with it, say what you will but at least understand the underlying reasons behind your opponent's beliefs and words.[/QUOTE] Also, thank you for finally explaining that, Emperor. I honestly didn't know. I'm being sincere here, don't worry.
[QUOTE=mac338;36571838]Since when is taxing a bad thing? Do republicans want an anarchic society out of Robocop or something? They've gone out of hand in the name of principles.[/QUOTE] I don't know about you but I actually work for my money. I was doing fine without health insurance before but now I'm required by law to buy health insurance and that's not only unnecessary, but it's also unconstitutional.
[QUOTE=ButtsexV3;36573453]I don't know about you but I actually work for my money. I was doing fine without health insurance before but now I'm required by law to buy health insurance and that's not only unnecessary, but it's also unconstitutional.[/QUOTE] if it's unconstitutional why was it deemed constitutional checkmate
[QUOTE=Dori;36573471]if it's unconstitutional why was it deemed constitutional checkmate[/QUOTE] I don't know probably the same reason that people still think FOPA's Hughes amendment is constitutional after 26 years
[QUOTE=ButtsexV3;36573453]I don't know about you but I actually work for my money. I was doing fine without health insurance before but now I'm required by law to buy health insurance and that's not only unnecessary, but it's also unconstitutional.[/QUOTE]No it isn't and no it isn't. Healthcare is ultimately a necessity whether you believe it or not, otherwise you're basically going to be unable to get effective medical coverage because hospitals will only do the bare minimum so as to stabilize you in an emergency. Beyond that, they are under no obligation to treat you in any regard. Second, its constitutional until a later ruling by the Supreme Court decides otherwise or Congress can get both chambers to vote to override the ruling. Second, the whole "I work for my money" argument is stupid and nonsensical. First of all, the money you make is collected from the combined efforts of countless people, and it come from other people to begin with in most cases, so its hardly your money anyway. Taxation is a necessity for every civilized society to function. You look roads? You like power? You like clean water? You like clean air? You like safe foods and drugs? You like some standard for education? Thanks taxes and government authority for making us a better place to live than Somalia.
[QUOTE=Doctor Zedacon;36573517]Second, the whole "I work for my money" argument is stupid and nonsensical. First of all, the money you make is collected from the combined efforts of countless people, and it come from other people to begin with in most cases, so its hardly your money anyway..[/QUOTE] this is so incredibly dumb that I all I need to do to invalidate anything you ever have or will say is to point it out
[QUOTE=ButtsexV3;36573542]this is so incredibly dumb that I all I need to do to invalidate anything you ever have or will say is to point it out[/QUOTE] Are you fucking serious? The world you live in around you, the city and the place you occupy were not created by you, you are not owed anything by this world, in fact, your ease of living is something we all owe to society and to each other. Taxation is a form that this is paid in to secure the continued existence of the society. Think for one minute about how many things you have access to because of foundations laid by both former people and former government labour paid for by taxwork. We all live in this together, we REALLY have to stop thinking so short sightedly and individualistically.
[QUOTE=ButtsexV3;36573542]this is so incredibly dumb that I all I need to do to invalidate anything you ever have or will say is to point it out[/QUOTE] Because you don't want to admit that he has a point. The argument that, "I don't need health insurance, because I'm healthy!" is, as much as I'd like to be civil and polite about this, utter horse shit. What if you get shot? Or get sick? Or any of the other multitude of things that can happen to you because you're mortal.
[QUOTE=Noble;36572596]Watch how quickly the system will fall apart when healthy young people just decide to pay this "tax" for a few hundred dollars per year, rather than buy ridiculously expensive health insurance at thousands of dollars per year. The only people signing up for "health insurance" will be the sick and elderly, sending "premiums" into the stratosphere because they will need to cover all these costs for these sick people but without revenue from the healthy to do so. If these are the only people signing up, then it isn't even insurance because there is no actual risk involved, they're already guaranteed virtually 100% to need the care, so it's really just a form of prepaid health care, not insurance (hence the quotes in the previous sentence). I don't know why the government just seems to have such a hard time ever telling the truth, if their intention is to completely socialize health care, then they might as well just come out and say it. The true way to fix our problem with health care lies in free market competition, not government intervention, but even a single-payer universal health care (which I don't support), with all its ethical and logistical issues aside, would make much more [i]economic sense[/i] than what the federal government is trying to do to the health industry in this country right now. Mandatory guaranteed issue (insurance companies can't deny someone with pre-existing conditions) and community rating (forcing insurance companies to charge the same rate to everyone - this is effectively making the young and healthy pay more for the benefit of the elderly and sick) are going to send premiums skyrocketing because they have to cover these new costs introduced into the system. [i]This is going to result in less healthy people purchasing health insurance[/i]. Health insurance [b]needs[/b] young and healthy people paying in to the system and the system will inevitably collapse without them doing so and this is why they put the individual mandate in there. Obama's health care law is so bad that you almost have to wonder if this is a deliberate government sabotage of the health care industry, so that when the system collapses, they can just blame capitalism, greed, and the free market, and then propose that the solution is more government (likely a universal health care system).[/QUOTE] Or you know, you yanks can stop blowing so much money on your military and provide every citizen with free health care.
[QUOTE=aydin690;36573624]Or you know, you yanks can stop blowing so much money on your military and provide every citizen with free health care.[/QUOTE] Hey! Some of us yanks want to.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;36573603]Are you fucking serious? The world you live in around you, the city and the place you occupy were not created by you, you are not owed anything by this world, in fact, your ease of living is something we all owe to society and to each other. Taxation is a form that this is paid in to secure the continued existence of the society.[/QUOTE] I'm not arguing for the absolute abolition of taxation, I'm arguing about being taxed for services I don't use. I'll help pay for the roads all day. The constitution is a promise between the United States and it's citizens, and I'm sticking to my end of the bargain.
[QUOTE=ButtsexV3;36573655]I'm not arguing for the absolute abolition of taxation, I'm arguing about being taxed for services I don't use. I'll help pay for the roads all day. The constitution is a promise between the United States and it's citizens, and I'm sticking to my end of the bargain.[/QUOTE] Just because you don't use it doesn't mean most people won't. The world doesn't revolve around you.
[QUOTE=ButtsexV3;36573655]I'm not arguing for the absolute abolition of taxation, I'm arguing about being taxed for services I don't use. I'll help pay for the roads all day. The constitution is a promise between the United States and it's citizens, and I'm sticking to my end of the bargain.[/QUOTE] you still owe it to the people around you who do need those services who in ways that you're not going to recognize are helping sustain the world around you. No one pays taxes for JUST what they want to, for just what they "participate" in, and no one ever will, nor should they and they should stop asking for it.
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