[b]University degrees ‘irrelevant’ to big employers[/b]
Via [url=http://www.news.com.au/finance/work/careers/university-degrees-irrelevant-to-big-employers/news-story/8a0340dd2b8e70e35b8ce3302c8d0cc5]News.com.au[/url]
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[quote][img]http://i.imgur.com/OldJbb7.jpg[/img]
[i]University degrees aren’t as valued by employers as they once were, which is great, or terrible, news, depending who you are.[/i]
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BIG employers are going cold on university degrees, leaving students and jobseekers to wonder if their qualifications are worth the investment and extra study.
This week, international publishing house Penguin Random House decided to drop degrees as a requirement for job applicants, following in the footsteps of major consulting firms Ernst and Young and PricewaterhouseCoopers.
The move comes as smaller employers are shifting away from hiring graduates or university students, believing kids are coming out of university with “no real skills” or simply being taught the wrong things.
Penguin hasn’t been so harsh, saying the shift in requirements is simply a move “to make publishing far, far more inclusive than it has been to date”.
“While graduates remain welcome to apply for jobs, not having been through higher education will no longer preclude anyone from joining,” a statement from the publisher confirmed.
“Simply if you’re talented and you have potential, we want to hear from you.”
But it’s still a scary prospect for higher education providers, a welcome relief from stressed out students or those who didn’t get the grades for the course they wanted, and a source of endless frustration for over-qualified graduates.
The value of tertiary education has consistently decreased in Australia over the past decade.
Graduate employment is the lowest it’s been since the 1992-93 recession.
The 2015 Graduate Careers Australia survey showed more than a quarter of bachelor degree graduates had failed to find work within four months of completing their studies. The money they’re being paid is on the slide, too, with university graduate salaries going down.[/quote]
I can only speak for myself, but in my experience, even though I haven't finished my Bachelor's degree in Computer Engineering, since I have experience in various areas (in IT), that's more than enough to consider me an attractive candidate for most companies.
It also helps if you've done a few courses. So I'd say that having a degree is not a requisite nowadays, it literally helps you put your foot on the door, but experience is king.
Same experience, nobody ever gave a crap about my education, degree or which school I have visited in the past.
It was all about my portfolio in the end.
hardly news to anyone trying to get a job
It's not a surprise that experience trumps knowledge in various fields.
[QUOTE=Rofl_copter;49593564]hardly news to anyone trying to get a job[/QUOTE]
Thing is, most "newcomers" don't know that having a degree is something that the HR cunts look for, just to see if you're "fit" for the job - but then it turns out that if you're fresh out of the university, you have literally 0 experience and thus, you're not good for the position.
So having a degree is useful to get around that road block and get your CV noticed. All those years and years... and that measly degree is almost meaningless.
Getting a college degree was never a free and instant ticket to a job, let alone a good job. Ever. And with the rise in the number of people attending college, suddenly there's this huge cry for "why can't I get a job, I'm smart now" when it was never the case to begin with. Simply having one single thing in a plethora of necessary things to acquire a job goes for any field. Skill level, experience, etc. Knowledge alone isn't enough.
Students that go into work-study programs, internships, field-related clubs, and things like that [I]while[/I] in college will have a much superior chance of getting a decent job upon graduation than those many who just sit in the classroom for 4 to 6 years and expect to be handed a contract along with their diploma.
[QUOTE=Amiga OS;49593599]we have taken on students during their gap year, and they really do have a surprising lack of basic knowledge and practically no hands on experience.[/QUOTE]
Over the last 20+ years, universities have proven to *not* prepare their students for the "real world", not even top universities, IMO.
Things are evolving way too fast. In my experience, courses are the way to go. Hell, I'm just about to start learning AWS and I don't think there's any university anywhere with Amazon Web Services in their curriculum. So if a recruiter is looking for an AWS DevOps and goes through the guys that just came out of college, they're pretty much shit outta luck for not knowing that technology.
[B]Fuck[/B]
So how am I supposed to get a job after four years of college if college is the only experience I've ever had with what I'm studying?
[QUOTE=nerdster409;49593636][B]Fuck[/B]
So how am I supposed to get a job after four years of college if college is the only experience I've ever had with what I'm studying?[/QUOTE]
Networking, as in, talking to a lot of people [I]in the know[/I] and landing a job through connections, is KEY. I can't stress this enough. I'd say that's your best bet right now.
[editline]23rd January 2016[/editline]
Who knows - maybe a friend of a friend knows a guy who needs someone like you! Get on that, man!
I'm in my 2nd year of University doing Animation and I've always been under the impression that an employer wants a portfolio and experience above all else.
[QUOTE=DrarrkS52;49593656]I'm in my 2nd year of University doing Animation and I've always been under the impression that an employer wants a portfolio and experience above all else.[/QUOTE]
You'd be correct. Although having a degree just puts you one step ahead of any other self-taught Average Joe who may be looking for an Animation job.
[editline]23rd January 2016[/editline]
But said Average Joe can still blow your doors off, if he has a portfolio much more diverse and attractive than yours.
[QUOTE=Pretiacruento;49593670]You'd be correct. Although having a degree just puts you one step ahead of any other self-taught Average Joe who may be looking for an Animation job.
[editline]23rd January 2016[/editline]
But said Average Joe can still blow your doors off, if he has a portfolio much more diverse and attractive than yours.[/QUOTE]
From where I stand at this moment in time, the Average Joe would kick my ass in the industry. On the plus side, with the course I'm doing we get actual industry experience and placements so we've got that going at least.
Although reading this article and knowing in a year I'll have close to 30k to pay off for the rest of my life is a bit of a low blow.
[QUOTE=Pretiacruento;49593648]Networking, as in, talking to a lot of people [I]in the know[/I] and landing a job through connections, is KEY. I can't stress this enough. I'd say that's your best bet right now.
[editline]23rd January 2016[/editline]
Who knows - maybe a friend of a friend knows a guy who needs someone like you! Get on that, man![/QUOTE]
I was kinda so focused on school that making friends was really a low priority.
I feel like I should have done something different a long time ago.
[QUOTE=nerdster409;49593636][B]Fuck[/B]
So how am I supposed to get a job after four years of college if college is the only experience I've ever had with what I'm studying?[/QUOTE]
Obvious solution is to not make it the only experience you've had with what you're studying.
Make it a hobby
Look for an internship
Look for a part time job at a place somewhat related to what you're studying.
There's plenty of ways, you just have to go out and find them.
[QUOTE=DrarrkS52;49593696]From where I stand at this moment in time, the Average Joe would kick my ass in the industry. On the plus side, with the course I'm doing we get actual industry experience and placements so we've got that going at least.
Although reading this article and knowing in a year I'll have close to 30k to pay off for the rest of my life is a bit of a low blow.[/QUOTE]
The key is learning stuff faster than you normally would in uni, to compensate for that. You're just about 2 clicks away from Graphic Design tutorials on Youtube, for instance. Coupled that with *good* books on the matter, and that should give you a bit of an edge over other applicants.
[QUOTE=Pretiacruento;49593711]The key is learning stuff faster than you normally would in uni, to compensate for that. You're just about 2 clicks away from Graphic Design tutorials on Youtube, for instance. Coupled that with *good* books on the matter, and that should give you a bit of an edge over other applicants.[/QUOTE]
It's always amused me when college students don't do any studying on their own downtime for their field or degree. I've met dozens of history students that never read a single history book outside a class requirement. How the fuck do they think they'll get ahead in the world is beyond me.
[QUOTE=nerdster409;49593709]I was kinda so focused on school that making friends was really a low priority.
I feel like I should have done something different a long time ago.[/QUOTE]
Still not too late; talk to your parent's friends, gauge their needs and see if they could use your skill set, or if they know someone who can hook ya up.
I'd go as far as to make "networking" top priority, go for it!
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;49593615]Getting a college degree was never a free and instant ticket to a job, let alone a good job. Ever.[/QUOTE]
The problem is that it's being advertised as that by pretty much everyone in my life. I'm still in college and my professors keep telling us the reality of the situation, but people's parents and K-12 school staff keep pumping people up to take college as it is the "end all be all".
I've actually asked around with employers and I've heard incredible stuff like "We have high school drop-outs working here next to people with master's degrees." Even though Valve is a dream job that I don't consider as a serious place I'll end up at, I've sent messages to employees there who then tried to make as clear as possible to me that it's about perfecting your craft, not accreditation. They spoke about that in a greater sense too past game development.
[QUOTE=wauterboi;49593754]The problem is that it's being advertised as that by pretty much everyone in my life. I'm still in college and my professors keep telling us the reality of the situation, but people's parents and K-12 school staff keep pumping people up to take college as it is the "end all be all".
I've actually asked around with employers and I've heard incredible stuff like "We have high school drop-outs working here next to people with master's degrees." Even though Valve is a dream job that I don't consider as a serious place I'll end up at, I've sent messages to employees there who then tried to make as clear as possible to me that it's about perfecting your craft, not accreditation. They spoke about that in a greater sense too past game development.[/QUOTE]
That's because universities, at least in the US, are businesses, not education centers. Their goal is to make money, not teach. Telling people that having a diploma alone won't get you a job is akin to advertising "our product isn't really important to you".
[QUOTE=Pretiacruento;49593648]Networking, as in, talking to a lot of people [I]in the know[/I] and landing a job through connections, is KEY. I can't stress this enough. I'd say that's your best bet right now.
[editline]23rd January 2016[/editline]
Who knows - maybe a friend of a friend knows a guy who needs someone like you! Get on that, man![/QUOTE]
This is literally how I've gotten the best jobs in the last couple of years.
Knowing people who know you're reliable, dependable, and easy to work with, they'll find a way to help you or put you in the right position.
This isn't surprising at all. If you're in university just for the degree you're going to be disappointed once you get out in the job market. The only valid reasons to get a higher education nowadays is to learn skill and build a network.
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;49593761]That's because universities, at least in the US, are businesses, not education centers. Their goal is to make money, not teach. Telling people that having a diploma alone won't get you a job is akin to advertising "our product isn't really important to you".[/QUOTE]
What I was trying to say that my professors tell us that college isn't necessary - especially during freshman year. They tried to tell people to drop out if they weren't serious and weren't concerned with the intellectual culture. It's the people that don't benefit whatsoever, like my high school teachers, who told us that we [I]had[/I] to go to college.
[editline]23rd January 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=Jodern;49593788]This isn't surprising at all. If you're in university just for the degree you're going to be disappointed once you get out in the job market. The only valid reasons to get a higher education nowadays is to learn skill and build a network.[/QUOTE]
Thankfully Zappos hires people right out of my college a ton. They do a lot of internships too.
uni teaches you how to learn. 9 times outta 10 you're not gonna go into a job using only things you've learned in your courses
anecdote but still: my friend graduated with a chemical engineering degree last year and is working for a chromatography company. he had to crack open his old textbooks because they had him design reactors and his class skipped a specific design method that he needed. or something like that. he also told me he's had to learn things more suited for an electrical engineer.
you never stop learning after uni. if you can't pick up things quickly in your job then you're worthless.
[QUOTE=elitehakor;49593837]uni teaches you how to learn. 9 times outta 10 you're not gonna go into a job using only things you've learned in your courses
anecdote but still: my friend graduated with a chemical engineering degree last year and is working for a chromatography company. he had to crack open his old textbooks because they had him design reactors and his class skipped a specific design method that he needed. or something like that. he also told me he's had to learn things more suited for an electrical engineer.
you never stop learning after uni. if you can't pick up things quickly in your job then you're worthless.[/QUOTE]
University doesn't teach that. Work ethic does.
uni teaches work ethic. there's a reason why weed out classes exist. if you crack under high pressure there's no way you'll survive in a job environment.
this is also why i believe why you need an internship/coop to guarantee a job out of college. employers need more proof that you can pick up skills quickly and you didn't just cheat your way to your degree
[editline]23rd January 2016[/editline]
disclaimer i'm only seeing this through an engineering standpoint. it might be diff in other fields idk
[QUOTE=elitehakor;49593883]uni teaches work ethic. there's a reason why weed out classes exist. if you crack under high pressure there's no way you'll survive in a job environment.
this is also why i believe why you need an internship/coop to guarantee a job out of college. employers need more proof that you can pick up skills quickly and you didn't just cheat your way to your degree
[editline]23rd January 2016[/editline]
disclaimer i'm only seeing this through an engineering standpoint. it might be diff in other fields idk[/QUOTE]
yeah but engineering isn't the whole world
there's tons of other job fields
saying work ethic and what not can only be learned through school is blatantly false. I didn't need that to learn how to learn, how to "not crack" under pressure. That's from life actually.
I think it depends a lot on the subject of the degree. A lot of people expect one degree to be equal to any other degree, when that simply isn't the case. Of the people I see struggling to find jobs, it's often the humanities students, probably because the humanities subjects do not lend themselves to a direct career progression - I.E. history grads don't become historians, whereas engineering grads become engineers.
There are two types of degrees - those that train you with a specific skill set (medicine, law, engineering), and those more general (history, philosophy, etc.). A graduate of either type of degree can apply to jobs that don't require specific knowledge (e.g. working in a bar), but only the grad from the degree offering a specific skill set will be able to apply to jobs within that industry (generally speaking).
i'm not saying engineering is like every other field
and i'm not saying that work ethic can only be learned through uni.
See, in Australia, if you don't have a degree, you don't get employed. If you got the job before hand without a degree, they expect that you'll go back and restudy to get the degree to continue your job. Its especially hard if you lose the job, since experience < degree attitude in our workforce.
Without a degree, you're not considerable for the position.
My experiences with university education, practical experience, and employment/hiring: (engineering perspective)
[B]* University came with opportunities to work on projects (both in-class and extracurricular)
* The school will often times have access to equipment and labs that a hobbyist/home-tinkerer wouldn't
* Group projects are great for building the leadership and interpersonal skills that I've had companies ask for
* Projects were typically framed around designing and building a real product so the techniques learned were broad & practical
* Most government (USA) jobs require higher education of any kind. This isn't likely to change any time soon no matter the industry trends
* Work [I]for[/I] the government (i.e. contractors and sub-contractors) typically mandates trained/certified engineers
* College/university graduation & major is typically used as a check-box or minimum-threshold for job applicant eligibility
* It suggests the candidate at least worked hard enough to pass their classes (they must have some work effort)
* They must have worked with (or under) some other people (goes back to those interpersonal skills)
* It is expected that a strong college program will at least expose students to concepts and methods that they will need in the industry[/B]
With the industry I work in, you stand little change of getting past the first stage of resume/CV filters without a college education. The phone, and on-site interviews that follow, end up determining (or try to) whether you actually have the skills & experience necessary for the position.
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