College Student to Jeb Bush: ‘Your Brother Created ISIS’ - Polidicks

[url]http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-politics/wp/2015/05/13/on-the-trail-jeb-bush-faces-hostile-questions-about-iraq-war/[/url] [url]http://www.nytimes.com/politics/first-draft/2015/05/13/college-student-to-jeb-bush-your-brother-created-isis/[/url] [IMG]http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2015/05/13/us/politics/13firstdraft-jeb-confront/13firstdraft-jeb-confront-tmagArticle.jpg[/IMG] [QUOTE] RENO, Nev. -- In his most confrontational exchange to date with voters, presumed Republican presidential candidate Jeb Bush faced sharp questions about his support for the Iraq war. The most hostile question came from a 19-year-old college student and Democrat, who confronted Bush after a 50-minute meeting with about 250 people. Ivy Ziedrich, who said she was a member of the local Young Democrats chapter, forcefully asked Bush about his belief that the Islamic State terror group has been an outgrowth of the Obama administration's decision to withdraw U.S. military forces from Iraq. Ziedrich: The threat of ISIS was created by the Iraqi Coalition Authority which ousted the entire government of Iraq. It was when 30,000 individuals who were part of the Iraqi military, they were forced out, they had no employment, they had no income. Yet they were left with access to all of the same arms and weapons. Your brother created ISIS. Bush: Is that a question? Ziedrich: You don’t need to be pedantic to me, sir. Bush: Pedantic? Wow. Ziedrich: You could just answer my question. Bush: So what is the question? Ziedrich: My question is why are you saying that ISIS was created by us not having a presence in the Middle East when it’s pointless wars, when we sent young men to die for the idea of American exceptionalism? It’s this idea – like, why are you spouting nationalistic rhetoric to get us involved in more wars? Bush: We respectfully disagree... Al Qaeda had been taken out, there was a fraudulent system that could have been brought up to create, to eliminate the sectarian violence and we had an agreement that the president could have signed, it would have kept 10,000 troops, which is less than what we have in Korea. It could have created the stability that would have allow for Iraq to progress. The net result was, the opposite occurred because immediately that void was filled. And so, look, you can rewrite history all you want but the simple fact is that we’re in a much more unstable place because America pulled back. Bush then walked away and greeted other supporters. The exchange came at the conclusion of a rowdy town hall meeting, where Bush began as he usually does by embracing his family history. "First of all, I’m proud to be George W’s brother. … It’s just the way it is, I can’t deny the fact that I love my family, I love everything about them," he said. He was later asked about comments aired by Fox News on Monday that he would have ordered the Iraq invasion even knowing how the war unfolded and that intelligence used to justify the war was faulty. On Tuesday, Bush clarified his comments, saying he had misunderstood the question. But a man in Reno asked Bush, "You said I think it was yesterday that I don’t want to answer hypotheticals. Don’t you think running for president is hypothetical when you say, if I run for president dot-dot-dot?" [/QUOTE] do all bushes have a boner for iraq? :v:

Jeb will forever be attached to the Iraq war. Its the price you have to pay for being a Bush. I'd argue the closer we get to the 2016 election the more questions like this he'll have to face.

Give me a fucking break. Had we never set foot in Afghanistan or Iraq, the regions would still be hotbeds for illegal weapons, drugs, and resources. It's just how the Middle East is.

To be fair to Jeb, it really did not sound like a question. I'd have been confused too. But the student has a good point, Bush's actions indirectly led to the formation of ISIS.

[QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;47721380]Give me a fucking break. Had we never set food in Afghanistan or Iraq, the regions would still be hotbeds for illegal weapons, drugs, and resources. It's just how the Middle East is.[/QUOTE] Well, now it's a hotbed for illegal weapons, drugs, resources, civil war, secterian violence and just general human misery. Of course, this has been part of the region for some time, but the invasions in the last decade only made it worse. You can't disagree with me on that one? Saying "it's just how the Middle East is" is just plain wrong, because the statement ignores history, and the fact that the west has been fucking up the region, directly or indirectly, for the last 100-200 years (Yes i left out the crusades, because some things you just have to let go, come on)

[QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;47721380]Give me a fucking break. Had we never set food in Afghanistan or Iraq, the regions would still be hotbeds for illegal weapons, drugs, and resources. It's just how the Middle East is.[/QUOTE] Yeah I preferred having a terrorist funding and harboring, repeat offending, international law breaking, wildlife destroying, torturing, raping, pillaging, warmongering genocidal psychopathic crime family in charge of Iraq. Are there people who think Saddam's mafia run Iraq was a nice place before the US/UK came along?

"We tried to do a good thing and fix something..." (although I'm sure some people would contend this with talks over oil and whatnot) "... but there was a shitty outcome so let's never try to do good things again," seems like a pretty pessimistic, shitty way of looking at the world to me. Sure, the actions of the war in the middle east led to the formation of ISIS, but that's not to say that such actions will ALWAYS lead to a similar outcome; if performed correctly (although how is another question entirely) I'm sure there could have been a much better outcome.

[QUOTE=sltungle;47721985]"We tried to do a good thing and fix something..." (although I'm sure some people would contend this with talks over oil and whatnot) "... but there was a shitty outcome so let's never try to do good things again," seems like a pretty pessimistic, shitty way of looking at the world to me. Sure, the actions of the war in the middle east led to the formation of ISIS, but that's not to say that such actions will ALWAYS lead to a similar outcome; if performed correctly (although how is another question entirely) I'm sure there could have been a much better outcome.[/QUOTE] But trying to "do the good thing" by using military force isn't the way to "fix" the Middle East, and why is it somehow the west's responsibility? A lot of the problems of the Middle East comes from the region's complex ethnic and religious composition. You can't fix this by forcing western political models, it has only led to corrupt and weak governments in the past. By having military forces occupying territory in the region, the west has only given the people of Iraq and Afghanistan a scapegoat for their problems. This has in turn added fuel to the fire that is fundamentalism. What I'm trying to say is that the west's concept of "doing good" in the Middle East is naive and wrong, given the political and cultural situation in the region. That being said, the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan wasn't the west trying to do good. We were trying to achieve global political goals, mainly fighting terrorism in its backyard, in which we failed horribly.

ISIS arose out of the Syrian conflict though.

[QUOTE=BusterBluth;47722434]ISIS arose out of the Syrian conflict though.[/QUOTE] No, it originated as a part of the iraqi insurgency. It later split with the more secular part of the insurgency, and branched out to Syria when the civil war broke out and joined forces with the al-nusra front. That is where it gained real momentum though.

The US ousted the secular leaders back in the 50's because they wouldn't kowtow to our will and instead cultivated a population of ignorant religious extremists because they were easier to control. Now all this time later we are now reaping what we've sown. We're just the latest in a long line of foreign invaders in the middle east.

They're both right. A western military presence there, with no bs restrictions like you can only shoot when you're being shot at, would crush IS quickly. And IS would not have that many in its ranks if it weren't for Sadam's men that got fired or w/e. Btw Iran, Turkey, Israel, Egypt, UAE, Saudi, Qatar, Pakistan all have a stake in Syria, Iraq, Yemen, Libya, Sudan and Afghanistan.They're all trying to outsmart one-another, and they won't be staying idle whilst the west does its thing.

Eh I still subscribe to the theory that Isis was created by the sectarian nature of the Iraqi government and the retribution mentality they quickly fell into after the US coalition granted them autonomy. There were splinter groups here and there but Iraq was the one that disenfranchised anyone connected to sadam and then anyone who was Sunni. We should have done more to stop that and that's where bush and Obama failed. [editline]14th May 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Wednesday;47722530]The US ousted the secular leaders back in the 50's because they wouldn't kowtow to our will, Now all this time later we are now reaping what we've sown. We're just the latest in a long line of foreign invaders in the middle east.[/QUOTE] Iraq democratically elected the baaths party, which then took over... In the 70s, the CIA did some terrible shit to be fair and our foriegn policy needed to be reigned in, but to blame the proceeding 65 years on CIA is bullshit, Iran, and Iraq had plenty of time not to kill each other and they still went at it

[QUOTE=Vasili;47721703]Yeah I preferred having a terrorist funding and harboring, repeat offending, international law breaking, wildlife destroying, torturing, raping, pillaging, warmongering genocidal psychopathic crime family in charge of Iraq. Are there people who think Saddam's mafia run Iraq was a nice place before the US/UK came along?[/QUOTE] compared to a brutal civil war, yeah, maybe. don't get me wrong, saddam did horrible things to iraq and its people, but if you want to solve for those problems, then smashing an entire established government (and its security structure) with military force followed by an unpopular occupation is not the way to go about it, especially when you do a crapshoot job of picking the pieces back up. surely, considering that the US basically built the government in baghdad, there were some measures they could have taken to safeguard against sectarian violence, if not during the iraqi civil war from 2006-2007, then at least in the years following.

[QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;47721380]Give me a fucking break. Had we never set food in Afghanistan or Iraq, the regions would still be hotbeds for illegal weapons, drugs, and resources. It's just how the Middle East is.[/QUOTE] The Middle East has been politically imposed on by the US, France and Great Britain for over a century. It has repeatedly known not just moments but periods of peace and prosperity throughout that time, only to implode under the pressures of everything from the Palestinian refugee crisis created by the British sponsorship of a colonial Jewish homeland, the CIA orchestrated coup of a democratically elected leader in Iran, the British political preferment of Sunni Muslims, a Soviet invasion, the American arming of the Mujaheddin, French religious-ethnic segregation in Syria, American endorsement of Saddam Hussein against the radical Iran they helped to create and on and on and on and on and on [I]You[/I] give me a break [editline]14th May 2015[/editline] i mean fucks sake it's not a secret like just read a book or take at least one history class on your way out of university, the world fucked up in the middle east bigtime and it's about time people were told what we've done there over and over again until sinks in

[QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;47721380]Give me a fucking break. Had we never set food in Afghanistan or Iraq, the regions would still be hotbeds for illegal weapons, drugs, and resources. It's just how the Middle East is.[/QUOTE] Wow, jesus christ, you never ever cared to sit down, read a fucking history book, and process what happened? "give me a fucking break. Had we never set foot in America, the regions would still be hotbeds for tribes killing each other in savage ways and offering alive sacrifices to fucked up gods. It's just how America is" Com... I just, I just can't understand how people who have SOME degree of intelligence and have been exposed to the internet for so long haven't just come across ONE (1) wikipedia article about the meddling of UK or US in foreign affairs, all those CIA Operations, ONE (1) news articles about the Chilean Coup D'etat.... [QUOTE] i mean fucks sake it's not a secret like just read a book or take at least one history class on your way out of university, the world fucked up in the middle east bigtime and it's about time people were told what we've done there over and over again until sinks in [/QUOTE] Forget it. I might sound extremely wacko marxist (Yes I consider that a bad thing) but the fact is that the US government is going to try and keep as most people as it can in plain ignorance regarding what happened. God, not so long ago the Secretary of Press of something like that in the White House (IT was a woman) said: "The US gov has never supported or endorsed any dictatorship". Are you fucking kidding me? Thankfully the whole room filled with journalists imploded into laugther. And some people try to downplay it in the following ways: "Oh the USSR did it too", "Oh those places were like that always", "Oh we gave them Africans lotsof monies so it's their fault", "Oh they are religious fuckheads there's no cure". The only thing left missing is someone showing up here and saying "I wish the US intervened all those savages...and then the stars....they are so far away, it makes me sad to think the US can't intervene them" Oh by the way...its a wonderful world [video=youtube;om4NJoZaPac]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=om4NJoZaPac[/video]

[QUOTE]"First of all, I’m proud to be George W’s brother. … It’s just the way it is, I can’t DENY the fact that I love my family, I love everything about them," he said.[/QUOTE] this evil son of a bitch. this family is pure evil. how could the people vote for him after them?

It's crazy how some people agree with Jeb when he outright denies proven facts. Some people actually believe US should have invaded Iraq because "Saddam was bad"? I never understood why don't those people call for an ivasion to NK, Ukraine/Russia, Mexico, Pakistan, China, Uganda... Oh wait these people usually do call for it.

I still find it interesting that we can judge people's political careers entirely on their sibling's actions that they had no control over.

[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;47729410]I still find it interesting that we can judge people's political careers entirely on their sibling's actions that they had no control over.[/QUOTE] Or we can judge by his response of supporting his actions??

[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;47729410]I still find it interesting that we can judge people's political careers entirely on their sibling's actions that they had no control over.[/QUOTE] Well he heavily implies "Bush did the right thing" so we can expect this Bush to have a similar agenda as that one Bush.

Focusing all of the hatred onto one person is kind of bullshit. It's a joint effort from literally everyone. Everyone wants revenge on everyone on top of revolutionary power and it turns into cyclical bullshit.

[QUOTE=BusterBluth;47722434]ISIS arose out of the Syrian conflict though.[/QUOTE] It formed within US POW camps for captured combatants. As for the Bushes? I heard a rumor one of them during WW two tried to begin a facist revolution with him as dictator. If true would mean bushes are not good for this republic. Saadam I believe was the lesser evil. As least he kept the peace between the sects in his nation.

[QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;47721380]Give me a fucking break. Had we never set foot in Afghanistan or Iraq, the regions would still be hotbeds for illegal weapons, drugs, and resources. It's just how the Middle East is.[/QUOTE] Had you never set foot in Afghanistan or Iraq, the regions would be a hell of a lot more stable today.

Trouble is with any situation like this, if you send in troops to take out a leader there are going to be 17 other things that you think you should also do while your there which get tagged on. Collateral damage rises, motives are questioned, and ultimately given the complexity of the first proposed task, what was supposed to be a simple coup turns into the shitfest it is today. Also, in general, I don't think introducing more guns to the region has helped any.

[QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;47721380]Give me a fucking break. Had we never set foot in Afghanistan or Iraq, the regions would still be hotbeds for illegal weapons, drugs, and resources. It's just how the Middle East is.[/QUOTE] Lmao this kind of denial amongst the significant part of Americans is staggering and unreal. I guess that's what happens when you've been fed this stuff your whole life basically. I like the part where you laugh at Russians supporting the Putin while you're being fed the same shit just on the other side of the world.

[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;47729410]I still find it interesting that we can judge people's political careers entirely on their sibling's actions that they had no control over.[/QUOTE] The whole idea is not to have dynasties in the US political scene. The fact there is family in or running for office is a bad sign. Jeb should not be elected due to having or had relatives in office. Same for the Clintons, Kennedys, Rockefellers.... There should be a ban on this stuff.

[QUOTE=icedt;47721350]Jeb will forever be attached to the Iraq war. Its the price you have to pay for being a Bush. I'd argue the closer we get to the 2016 election the more questions like this he'll have to face.[/QUOTE] It's the price he has to pay for causing his brother to win by stealing Florida during the 2000 election.