Okay, I only made it ten minutes in so I'll only comment on that. (Which, I recognize is kinda ironic.)
Still, a lot of the first ten minutes is a lot of subjectivity, barring; the games have slow starts, the characters banter, platforming really looks more dangerous than it is, and stealth isn't very fleshed out at all.
That said, the characters have character. The assertion that the writers are only concerned with if they're funny or not, while may be in their minds isn't the forethought of the writing. You can still describe what each character is like, what their personalities are and what motivations they have for being where they are. Uncharted 4 (which, while he was explaining this in the video, he conveniently never mentioned) actually brings the characters out far more than the previous games.
I never had any problems finding what direction I had to go in these games, even when Uncharted 4 added multiple paths, the visuals are easy as fuck to differentiate where they're trying to draw your eye, what's climbable, and what's shootable. Use of color and lighting is pretty paramount to this, and at least from Uncharted 2 and on, I almost counted as a detractor because it was TOO easy and the elements used seemed too out of the ordinary but clearly, it's just as possible to miss it completely as it is to notice it too much.
You do have to judge distance for jumping, just most of it is actually close enough to jump to :v:
There's more to comment on, but meh. And I dunno; this feels clickbaity given that weird-as-fuck review petition and that the game is otherwise so well received, and a lot of it could be pre-faced with "in my opinion" since that's what a lot of it is. (But that's okay!)
I'm surprised to hear that Troy Baker actually supports that petition. That's disappointing.
Maybe I'm getting old but I've come to prefer immersive games with a focus on story and characterization, and not necessarily gameplay.
e: To clarify; it's not that good gameplay is a bad thing, but it's not necessarily what's going to keep my attention for the duration of the game.
5 minutes in and the guy says Uncharted stories are bad and the characters are not interesting whatsoever.
How wrong can you be?
[QUOTE=Grenadiac;50390766]Maybe I'm getting old but I've come to prefer immersive games with a focus on story and characterization, and not necessarily gameplay.[/QUOTE]
I like a good balance, but good writing will keep me more interested if the gameplay is mediocre.
I'm going to dismiss this video as clickbait trash because all I hear is "every aspect of Uncharted sucks in some way" and from watching the footage, I'd say it's partly because he just sucks at it and at understanding it.
Hennig is seriously overrated, and yes Uncharted is a literal by-the-numbers spectacle fest.
It's still very much a game, and an assload of work went into most of that.
The scenario conversation writing is pretty solidly placed, but the overall writing is trash, always has been.
There's nothing wrong with fucking off for 8 hours and just mashing buttons and looking at hardware being utilized in a very exacting way as essentially a mostly passive observer, that said, it is absolutely crafted to hit the lowest common denominator.
[QUOTE]he just sucks at it[/QUOTE]
If you can tap your finger to a song you can beat Uncharted, that isn't even kind of the issue, nor is it presented anywhere thereof.
[QUOTE=27X;50390925]The scenario conversation writing is pretty solidly placed, but the overall writing is trash, always has been.[/QUOTE]
But... How? What's wrong with Uncharted 2? Or is it just the supernatural stuff?
[editline]25th May 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=RichyZ;50390926]its incredibly well known that the games are designed around the setpieces and that the characters are essentially robots that spit out well written one liners with not much substance to them[/QUOTE]
I don't even know what you mean, I thought people liked and cared about Uncharted characters? They have great voice actors if nothing else.
[editline]25th May 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=27X;50390925]If you can tap your finger to a song you can beat Uncharted.[/QUOTE]
That only depends on the difficulty you choose, as most of the time. If you take a look at the Uncharted thread you'll see a couple people who had difficulty completing the games on harder difficulties.
[QUOTE=RichyZ;50390926]
its incredibly well known that the games are designed around the setpieces and that the characters are essentially robots that spit out well written one liners with not much substance to them[/QUOTE]
the same was true for stuff like the old spyro (and others from that era) games, i think it's fine for some games to just be mindless gameplay with a loose story to tie it all together
[editline]25th May 2016[/editline]
i mean there's nothing wrong with a game that just funnels action and gameplay to you, not everything has to have a deep character-driven plot
[QUOTE=RichyZ;50390975]they have great voice/mocap actors with good chemistry, but their characters are completely devoid of any actual character
drake is a snarky dude, thats about it, i've beaten 1, 2, and 3 multiple times and cannot tell you a single character trait about him that isn't just "im a dude who says funny things and looks for treasure"
sully is a similar situation except hes older and more likely to take the safer route on things, the straight man to drake, with not much else besides that
elena pretty much doesnt exist past 1
chloe wants to ride drakes dick sorta and thats about it for her
everyone else is completely forgettable, name a villain and a motivation that isnt "i want the treasure! i want to kill nathan drake!"[/QUOTE]
I see where this is coming from, but how is this worse than your average action game or film?
[QUOTE=RichyZ;50390926]its incredibly well known that the games are designed around the setpieces and that the characters are essentially robots that spit out well written one liners with not much substance to them[/QUOTE]
The whole "built around the setpieces" stuff wasn't really a problem until Uncharted 3. The first two still made sense in terms of progression as to when and how the setpieces worked. 3 jumped around a lot to show you cool shit and ND have outright said "yeah we kinda did this one by making those first and trying to tie them together...it kinda sucked right?". 3 really has quite a few quality issues because of that.
The gameplay is fine to be honest. The only thing I really agreed with in the video was that the stealth sucked. Which is does. But the game isn't a stealth game, every situation can be run and gunned with zero consequence. If you're playing on anything that isn't Crushing at least. Crushing just becomes unfair at times. The shooting works well, the cover mechanics are pretty average (throwing grenades to flush you out is simple, but it can at least get you to move sometimes). When the controls start interacting with the physics of the area it does get interesting, but it happens rarely so whatever.
The platforming is pretty standard Tomb Raider-esque "climb the thing" stuff. Really, it's not ground breaking but it does the job it's meant to.
ND pretty much wanted to make Indiana Jones: The Game, and did a pretty damn fine job of it. It's nowhere near bad enough to say "it's not a real game" though. The series is thoroughly enjoyable as action schlock. Much in the same way The Expendables works as action schlock. I can just play it without dedicating to it and still know what's going on, what the (limited) character motivations are and have a damn fun time.
I don't know, if gameplay is secondary and story and characters are placed in the spotlight without the player's interactions affecting the outcome of the story and world, then the interaction aspect of gaming is almost totally ignored and you might as well just develop a film. Games are interactive mediums, one of the few forms of media that are interactive at all, and if you want to tell an engaging story with interesting characters and set pieces, with some minimal input from the player between cutscenes to give the illusion of being a game, then why not just make a nice CGI film? Obviously the biggest reason is Uncharted would make more money as a game than film, but I don't necessarily consider the series a good "game," even if it presents good "story," "characters," or an overall "experience."
[QUOTE=RichyZ;50390997]the average film series is often heavily criticized past the first movie, especially if its an action movie (for similar reasons surprise surprise)
if you are trying to compare uncharted to the average action game or movie, isn't that attempting to disservice it? why cant it try to be great?[/QUOTE]
Disservice? You're the one saying that the characters are terrible, which I disagree with. They lack depth, I can give you that one. But that doesn't mean they don't have any character, or aren't interesting.
For instance, there's a clear contrast between Chloe and Elena. Chloe even refers to Elena as the "white bread, picket fence type". Chloe is much more egocentric, while Elena cares about Drake, his friends and the rest. Chloe is mostly in for herself since she'd go as far as threaten her friends to secure her safety. That's just one example.
[QUOTE=RichyZ;50391039]tbh id argue the platforming makes these games more boring than they need to be, he really nails it with the platforming not really having much of a consistent mechanic behind it, you go as far as the devs want you to go when jumping and more often than not it just becomes a game of "which ledge is highlighted and if not, which one wont have drake act like a surprised animal and fall into the rocks/water below to his death"
might as well just make them cutscenes if theyre going to be that cut and dry[/QUOTE]
Yeah i do wish there was a bit more to it. Drake will jump a set distance 90% of the time, the other 10% he will undershoot or overshoot the standard because "drama". that's the most dynamic element in the climbing mechanic.
after Uncharted it did just become a task of "find the most yellow ledge near you, press x at it". pretty simplistic, not really that exciting. and only used to give us some scenery porn maybe once or twice a game.
[QUOTE=RichyZ;50391039]never once did i say terrible, i said they dont have characterization past a simple archetype, which is super true
that chloe example you gave doesn't help, she never evolves past that and theres never anything we learn about her that makes her a more likable character, you know from step 1 that she is willing to slob on drakes knob to get that sick treasure and is willing to do anything to get the treasure, bar killing drake because she kinda loves him or something[/QUOTE]
But that's not even true since she's the one who wanted to give up because they were in over their hands near the end.
Also I don't see how you could possibly compare with Mad Max characters, because I could just as easily say that they don't have any character either. Max is the typical "family killed, gone wild with PTSD" guy who sometimes has flashes of altruism. That's it. The other characters are paper-thick except maybe Furiosa since she has some sort of motivation that can be explained.
[QUOTE=RichyZ;50391089]yeah she knew she was going to die and decided it wasnt worth it, crazy character twist for someone to not want to die?
im talking about the original trilogy, not fury road (though really i only refer to 1 and 2 because thunderdome is fucking garbage)[/QUOTE]
Well I was referring to the whole series since I literally can't name a single character that has any depth in Mad Max.
(I still like the films though)
Oh man I completely agree with this video about the gameplay. Any tension goes out the window when you realize it's impossible to fall off the tightbeam you're walking on, same with Tomb Raider.
I almost didn't play 2&3 because the gameplay in 1 is so generic and not fun (same with TLOU) but everything else about the games is great. Normally I'd bash on a game for being all spectacle but the spectacle in these games is probably the best and makes up for how not fun and railroaded everything is. I probably won't ever play the first 3 again but I am looking forward to playing 4 whenever I get around to that.
If The Order 1886 was as interesting and action packed as Uncharted is, it probably wouldn't be bashed so hard for really just being a tech demo
Honestly, I never cared for the Uncharted franchise, though I do see why they succeed, but I do hope that now that Naughty Dog's done with them they'd go back to working on a new Jak and Daxter game
I don't think it's fair to say "it's not a real video game" at all. I feel like this is awfully similar to the "what is art?" argument in that you can't really define precisely what makes a game. The game mechanics change slightly during set pieces probably because it would be a total pain in the ass plus immersion breaking if you die a lot during them. I feel like this dude probably spent a lot more time playing the previous games than actually playing UC4. In 4 they opened up the game world a lot more and there's plenty more freedom. In regards to sitting in the same spot, it's not quite as viable this time around due to there being a ton of destructible cover.
[QUOTE=Sharker;50391525]I don't think it's fair to say "it's not a real video game" at all. I feel like this is awfully similar to the "what is art?" argument in that you can't really define precisely what makes a game. The game mechanics change slightly during set pieces probably because it would be a total pain in the ass plus immersion breaking if you die a lot during them. I feel like this dude probably spent a lot more time playing the previous games than actually playing UC4. In 4 they opened up the game world a lot more and there's plenty more freedom. In regards to sitting in the same spot, it's not quite as viable this time around due to there being a ton of destructible cover.[/QUOTE]
What boggles me is why ask those kinds of questions now? Uncharted 4 didn't invent anything, those questions were as transparent 10 years ago with other games.
This is a great case of "no true scotsman" going on right here
[QUOTE=RichyZ;50390975]they have great voice/mocap actors with good chemistry, but their characters are completely devoid of any actual character
drake is a snarky dude, thats about it, i've beaten 1, 2, and 3 multiple times and cannot tell you a single character trait about him that isn't just "im a dude who says funny things and looks for treasure"
sully is a similar situation except hes older and more likely to take the safer route on things, the straight man to drake, with not much else besides that
elena pretty much doesnt exist past 1
chloe wants to ride drakes dick sorta and thats about it for her
everyone else is completely forgettable, name a villain and a motivation that isnt "i want the treasure! i want to kill nathan drake!"
[editline]25th May 2016[/editline]
im not saying there is anything wrong with having paper thin characterization and plot, [b]i like the games[/b]
but to dismiss all criticism with this logic isnt going to further this series, nd's talents, or the industry at all
imagine if we got another uncharted and it actually had amazing characters, a well implemented stealth system, much more satisfying shooting mechanics, ontop of the already awesome tech and setpieces[/QUOTE]
While I understand that maybe chloe and the other side characters introduced in uncharted 3 aren't very well developed; it's almost completely ridiculous to say that nathan, elena or sully hadn't gone through any form of story arch in uncharted 1, 2, or 3. Your argument I'd presume could be that maybe it wasn't as in depth as you'd like (and in some scenarios I might be inclined to agree) but to write off their characters entirely by deconstructing them and giving us the most simple, basic trait they all have is kind of ridiculous, because you can (as Loadingue pointed out with a mad max example) do that with almost any film or game.
Also, I'm not sure you're aware that this thread is titled "uncharted 4", and is primarily addressing that game. If you haven't played Uncharted 4, what exactly gives you the knowledge on the subject to condemn it's writing? Matter of fact, it felt like the guy in the video came in with his mind already made up that it was a "bad" game, because almost all of his complaints were only relevant to uncharted 1/2/3 (Other than maybe the depth of gameplay being shallow, which isn't inherently bad, and is actually.. you guessed it, subjective). The writing has been improved greatly, every character gets quite a lot of screentime, there are actually (true facts) much less enemies to kill, and not as many setpieces (and the ones that are there are grounded and make sense, especially if you compare it to uncharted 3). Despite there being a considerably smaller amount of enemies to kill and less action sequences, why is it still the longest game in the series? If you were to have played it, you might know that it probably has a lot to do with the much more in depth character building, from cutscenes, to character development through exploring segments and puzzles, of which provide quite a lot of backstory in the form of casual banter from character to character to better explain their motivations. Uncharted 2 (before 4) was the only game written by neil druckmann and amy hennig, and it was debatably the best out of the three. Uncharted 4 however was written collaboratively between bruce straley and neil druckmann (bruce straley being the director of uncharted 2, and the last of us)
If you ever get to Uncharted 4, you will be surprised at how much of an improvement it is over 3, and maybe even the entire series prior. It's a much more grounded and fleshed out experience, even though it still succeeds at being this ridiculous over the top action adventure video game.
Also, I'm not even going to address why I think it's ridiculous why the author of this video thinks that "uncharted 4 isn't a real game"
[QUOTE=Fish_poke;50390885]I like a good balance, but good writing will keep me more interested if the gameplay is mediocre.[/QUOTE]
I prefer a balance too of course and games that are just raw gameplay like UT99 will always be fun. But my most memorable experiences have been very story-centric games like KOTOR. I don't really care for KOTOR's combat, but I really enjoy the games. The dialogue, the writing, it keeps me hooked through rather dull gameplay. Mass Effect 1 was fucking magical and its gunplay was frankly rather bad.
I haven't played Uncharted 4 so I can't really judge for myself, but it sounds like a game I would enjoy, though I've heard the characters are kind of wooden. Either way, the environments look stunning enough to be worth a look.
maybe I'm just really susceptible to uncharted's tricks to make the player feel like they're doing something important, but I had a lot of fun through all 4 games and constantly felt like I was enjoying myself. I'm sure if I looked at it with a negative scope I wouldn't enjoy it, but whenever cool shit happens on the screen I'm like "wow that's some cool shit and I'm partially integrated in it" and have no issues with that.
i will agree the stealth was bad in the other games, but honestly as a whole I didn't enjoy combat (though in 4 it was VERY improved) and instead enjoyed walking around, exploring, interacting with the world, and during the cinematic sequences like the madagascar chase I felt the game was at its best. the thing is, unlike most games that do scripted sequences, in this one they manually develop each one to be for that specific sequence. you're not just doing the same scripted thing every time, you're doing several different scripted sequences each with their own mechanics that tie into the main platforming and combat mechanics. and that's cool.
i will also agree this petition is bullshit but we can't go black or white on this subject, I enjoy the game but realize it's not built for people who like games for the traditional reasons to like games.
Now onto the things I disagree with. His claim that there's jankey movement followed by a clip of him making the joystick flip out is absolutely terrible, and highlights how subjective his critiques are (I mean, yeah your character will rubberband back on track if you try to move away from it, but is that a bad thing for a game thats made to be on tracks?) I disagree with him on the idea that the game isn't consistent, because control schemes stay consistent with certain things, x is punch, trigger is shoot, triangle is dodge, and because those are consistent it feels right transitioning to those scenes, its just that animations are gonna be a bit different and it won't be as dynamic as real gameplay, but honestly not having those things can't be drummed up as "inconsistent." his complaints about the writing also don't sit well with me, but I have no real response as to why I feel that way. I enjoyed the characters and their writing inside the gameplay but that might be because I already feel good about the game as a whole. I'm not combing over everything so that might change my perspective on things.
He's got some points but overall I just find myself disagreeing because most of his points are based off of feelings, and they're based entirely around his perspective and his experience with the game. it's his point of view and this is mine, and because it's so subjective I have to say this is a terrible video for the subject because of the platform is tries to be on top of. I mean, is it a bad thing to be so willing to accept Uncharted 4 even with it's supposed shortcomings? am I a bad person with a bad opinion if that's the case? this video sets a precedent that I don't really enjoy or agree with.
[QUOTE=RichyZ;50390975]they have great voice/mocap actors with good chemistry, but their characters are completely devoid of any actual character
drake is a snarky dude, thats about it, i've beaten 1, 2, and 3 multiple times and cannot tell you a single character trait about him that isn't just "im a dude who says funny things and looks for treasure"
sully is a similar situation except hes older and more likely to take the safer route on things, the straight man to drake, with not much else besides that
elena pretty much doesnt exist past 1
chloe wants to ride drakes dick sorta and thats about it for her
everyone else is completely forgettable, name a villain and a motivation that isnt "i want the treasure! i want to kill nathan drake!"[/QUOTE]
Drake is a thief and a treasure hunter. He's running off a legacy of the same kinds of people and struggles with the abandonment from those as well. But more than that, this is a guy who's pretty much exactly where he wants to be. Uncharted 4's story begins because when you take him out of that, despite every good intention he has, he can't resist the pull of following the footsteps of these historical characters. Sully even goes after the treasure more than he does, (which ultimately serves as a way for Drake to connect with players, since players don't really care about treasure all that much,) Drake prefers the adventure more, the mystery, etc.
I could go on with other characters, if you wish, but it just feels like you weren't really paying attention.
Also, Marlowe at least has character traits beyond those two. She isn't even really after traditional treasure, she's after the hallucinogen in that game's secret city. You could argue that's the same thing, but her belief it belongs to her and she's entitled to it gives a little more depth than just "treasure." It's also funny, she didn't even want to kill Drake :V She got mad in the beginning when it looked like he died and didn't even kill him midway through the story.
wow, troy baker is a piece of shit. how the fuck can you get away with being a professional of his status and openly supporting a petition to get a negative review of your game banned?
[QUOTE=Grenadiac;50390766]Maybe I'm getting old but I've come to prefer immersive games with a focus on story and characterization, and not necessarily gameplay.
e: To clarify; it's not that good gameplay is a bad thing, but it's not necessarily what's going to keep my attention for the duration of the game.[/QUOTE]
Probably has something to do with getting older. Back when I was a kid, I always skipped cutscenes so I could go straight to the gameplay. Now that I'm older and have a job, I just want to relax after work and play something that isn't very demanding or stressful, sometimes even setting the difficulty to easy.
[QUOTE=Grenadiac;50390766]Maybe I'm getting old but I've come to prefer immersive games with a focus on story and characterization, and not necessarily gameplay.
e: To clarify; it's not that good gameplay is a bad thing, but it's not necessarily what's going to keep my attention for the duration of the game.[/QUOTE]
If all that's necessary to keep your attention is a skeleton of a system of gameplay and pretty colors well hey you do you babe.
[QUOTE=Loadingue;50391071]But that's not even true since she's the one who wanted to give up because they were in over their hands near the end.
Also I don't see how you could possibly compare with Mad Max characters, because I could just as easily say that they don't have any character either. Max is the typical "family killed, gone wild with PTSD" guy who sometimes has flashes of altruism. That's it. The other characters are paper-thick except maybe Furiosa since she has some sort of motivation that can be explained.[/QUOTE]
Even in Fury Road Max has a lot of character and depth, as well as development. Just because he doesn't speak a lot doesn't mean he doesn't.
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