"War will change, Da" - Russian lawmakers propose creating private military companies
63 replies, posted
[img]http://videocdn.itar-tass.com/width/744_b12f2926/tass/m2/en/uploads/i/20141022/1066515.jpg[/img]
[quote]MOSCOW, October 22. /TASS/. A Just Russia Party has submitted a bill to the State Duma, Russia’s lower house of parliament, on establishing private military and security companies (PMCs) in Russia.
The PMCs could specialize in providing military and security services to the state, individuals and legal entities on a contract basis, in line with the initiative proposed by lawmaker Gennady Nosovko.
In particular, the military services include “mine clearance on the territories and at buildings, armed escort of sea vessels and alternative settlement of armed conflicts outside Russia.”[/quote]
[url]http://en.itar-tass.com/russia/755776[/url]
I think this can be really interesting topic to discuss.
*insert obligatory MGS reference here*
[QUOTE] and alternative settlement of armed conflicts outside Russia[/QUOTE]
So, if I got this right, this means that these private military companies can come aid the separatists in Ukraine with full force without officially representing Russia? Just as an exaggerated example.
[QUOTE=Limed00d;46301114]So, if I got this right, this means that these private military companies can come aid the separatists in Ukraine with full force without officially representing Russia? Just as an exaggerated example.[/QUOTE]
PMCs are generally not allowed to fight for countries that don't have international recognition
[QUOTE=Limed00d;46301114]So, if I got this right, this means that these private military companies can come aid the separatists in Ukraine with full force without officially representing Russia? Just as an exaggerated example.[/QUOTE]
Actually this is not soo far fetched, i remember when duma had talks how to react to volunteers going ot Ukraine, and before everyone decided to simply, you know, ignore them, there was talk about giving them special classification to prevent any trouble when they comback. Something about "fighting without being paid on volunter basis".
PMC deal can be follow up of the case, since if unnoficial support already proved to be succesful, imagine what can be achieved if you get fully loaded PMC getting rich on foreign soil.
It's a win win for everyones except obvious losers.
[QUOTE=Laserbeams;46301129]PMCs are generally not allowed to fight for countries that don't have international recognition[/QUOTE]
I think in the modern world setting, the word "generally not" means "pretty much you can" for a long time now.
I'm surprised PMCs don't already exist in Russia.
[QUOTE=download;46301136]I'm surprised PMCs don't already exist in Russia.[/QUOTE]
i guess for a time being state goverment did not want anybody armed besides official army.
On the other hand, the detail of regulation still being discussed.
It would be interesting to se some radicals forming a PMC group under goverments grip like a bandogs.
Terrible idea.
PMC needs to stop being a thing.
[QUOTE=download;46301136]I'm surprised PMCs don't already exist in Russia.[/QUOTE]
They do though. ChOP Alfa-Tsentr, RSB group, Moran security group. RSB group is particularly large.
So I'm not sure what the author of this article is misinterpreting.
This can be really bad and really good.
The bad thing is that, well, we give guys with money even more power. But do we really care if they do? That's the philosophical question here. But that subject completely derails this thread so i wont japper about on that shit. I think if they initiate this law, nothing big will happen. But it's fucked that the military is obliged to fight for the state, or at least i think it said that? I may be wrong.
I may as well explain why i think that is fucked because i worded it so badly. So if there are 300 individuals that have money to buy their own private army, then when the state needs them, they have much more manpower, right? I really feel i have read something wrong here. This feels fucking stupid.
[QUOTE=dilzinyomouth;46301184]They do though. ChOP Alfa-Tsentr, RSB group, Moran security group. RSB group is particularly large.
So I'm not sure what the author of this article is misinterpreting.[/QUOTE]
Private Security =/= PMC. They do not operate abroad, neither allowed to form own munition arsenal.
[QUOTE=karimatrix;46301189]Private Security =/= PMC.[/QUOTE]
They are one in the same. Private security is a term used by corporate types who dont like the implications of having a "private military" roaming about. RSB group is a PMC, no two ways about it.
[QUOTE=dilzinyomouth;46301196]They are one in the same. Private security is a term used by corporate types who dont like the implications of having a "private military" roaming about. RSB group is a PMC, no two ways about it.[/QUOTE]
Untill you show me any of those groups officially having contract of military operations not in Russia, they are not. Trust me, i see some of those folks standing around here in Moscow. Not saying they can't participate in some shady business, but they are not classified or recognised as PMCs.
[QUOTE=karimatrix;46301189]They do not operate abroad, neither allowed to form own munition arsenal.[/QUOTE]
No thats a misconception.
The only reason "PMCs" were operating in Iraq and Afghanistan was because they were contracted to be the US government. Otherwise they would be labelled as mercenaries by international law.
Providing "private security" on a contract basis in any part of the world though, is not illegal unless the actions taken in providing that security contravene the laws of the land in that area. I.E a bodyguard shooting someone would be tried like anybody else.
RSB group has done contracts abroad. Hell its in their fucking portfolio on their website.
[QUOTE=BananaMed;46301111]*insert obligatory MGS reference here*[/QUOTE]
"It's like one of my japanese animes"
[QUOTE=karimatrix;46301209]Untill you show me any of those groups officially having contract of military operations not in Russia, they are not. Trust me, i see some of those folks standing around here in Moscow. Not saying they can't participate in some shady business, but they are not classified or recognised as PMCs.[/QUOTE]
Ok what is it you think is the difference between these "security" groups in Russia, and PMCs in the US and UK?
There is none. Neither is allowed to store munitions beyond what they are legally capable of acquiring as civilians in that country.
PMCs are private security. The last time a private entity provided a true military capability for a country was Executive Outcomes in Africa. That was some ~20 years ago.
[QUOTE=dilzinyomouth;46301260]The last time a private entity provided a true military capability for a country was Executive Outcomes in Africa. That was some ~20 years ago.[/QUOTE]
and what about shit that happened with PMC's in iraq then? I remember some huge scandal back in a day.
[QUOTE=dilzinyomouth;46301218]No thats a misconception.
The only reason "PMCs" were operating in Iraq and Afghanistan was because they were contracted to be the US government. Otherwise they would be labelled as mercenaries by international law.
Providing "private security" on a contract basis in any part of the world though, is not illegal unless the actions taken in providing that security contravene the laws of the land in that area. I.E a bodyguard shooting someone would be tried like anybody else.
RSB group has done contracts abroad. Hell its in their fucking portfolio on their website.[/QUOTE]
Just as Russia can contract own PMC soo they won't be labeled mercenaries either.
That's exactly my point, If you'd ask RSB go kill somebody abroad then they'd be mercs. Now if you do it with PMC contract they don't. And that is why the term getting into Duma in a first place.
On the other hand we both argue on something a bit irrelevant, whatever was the case with private military, now it's getting new far more legal virtue.
[QUOTE=karimatrix;46301263]and what about shit that happened with PMC's in iraq then? I remember some huge scandal back in a day.[/QUOTE]
There were a few different scandals. Most of it was the highly questionable tactics security details were using, "proactive safety" and what not, another was an incident from memory were a security detail freaked out and started loosing off rounds into a crowd of civilians. IIRC they ended up getting tried for manslaughter.
That was never acting as a military however. The big misconception people have is that these pmcs are patrolling around and killing combatants. EO on the other hand brought tanks, helicopters and everything to bear in Africa. Actively hunted down the rebel groups.
[QUOTE=karimatrix;46301263]
That's exactly my point, If you'd ask RSB go kill somebody abroad then they'd be mercs. Now if you do it with PMC contract they don't. And that is why the term getting into Duma in a first place.
On the other hand we both argue on something a bit irrelevant, whatever was the case with private military, now it's getting new far more legal virtue.[/QUOTE]
So this legislation is effectively a permanent deal?
[QUOTE=Laserbeams;46301129]PMCs are generally not allowed to fight for countries that don't have international recognition[/QUOTE]
Who's gonna stop a major power from doing that though?
Are PMC a thing elsewhere?
I hope it doesn't go down mafia "protecting service" route. Meaning you need to pay them so They don't wreck your shit. Suppose its all about how much power will be given legally to PMC's. They need to be regulated so their power don't exceed governmental military.
But even so what will happen when 2 PMC's clash, and the people caught in between.
[QUOTE=proch;46301388]Who's gonna stop a major power from doing that though?[/QUOTE]
Solid Snake
[editline]22nd October 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=lapsus_;46301438]Are PMC a thing elsewhere?[/QUOTE]
In the US, yes
[QUOTE=lapsus_;46301438]Are PMC a thing elsewhere?[/QUOTE]
US and UK, government pay for them to train in Poland and places then give them VERY lucrative, cost+ contracts in Iraq.
More traditional PMC's (mercenaries) were used in kosovo as well.
If this becomes a thing, does that mean that the US will ease the restrictions on American PSC/PMC groups? I have a few friends that would like that a lot, more money in their pockets. However, I do hope this proposal gets stricken down. Otherwise it most likely will cause other nations to loosen their own restrictions on PSC/PMC groups in response.
why are some people in this thread acting like mercenaries are a new invention somehow?
[QUOTE=Virtanen;46301687]why are some people in this thread acting like mercenaries are a somehow new invention?[/QUOTE]
Well use of mercenaries since the middle ages has declined as nationalism, state militias, professional army, national service took a more central role in politics/state building.
Green Polite Men - coming to abused minorities near you for just $9.9m!
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;46301955]Green Polite Men - coming to abused minorities near you for just $9.9m![/QUOTE]
Serbia has dibs for playing with them first.
[QUOTE=lapsus_;46301438]Are PMC a thing elsewhere?[/QUOTE]
USA Blackwater is most widely known.
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