If God exists, then the universe can also exists by itself. Thus God is meaningless.
28 replies, posted
Let's say you can accept that an infinite being exists (God), you therefore accept the concept of infinity. If you fathom infinity, you can thus say that the universe is possibly infinite (in time). Consequently, the lack of creation could mean that God had nothing to do with "us", the universe.
All in all, even if there was a God, it wouldn't change anything for us.
Would it?
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[QUOTE=CrashLemon;36564513]Consequently, the lack of creation means that God had nothing to do with "us", the universe.[/QUOTE]
This is where you lost me. If the universe is infinite, it does not say anything about the creation of it. What's to say that an infinite being could not create an infinite universe? I liken it in my mind to a single cell splitting into two equal, identical cells.
It's a somewhat moot point anyway being that infinity only exists as a concept (so far as we know). So I suppose it creates a whole other train of thought about the nature of god's existence.
Could you clarify your argument? I feel as though you are taking a Platonic view of existence in that concepts are derived from perfect forms which are independent of the universe, as opposed to the Aristotelian view that concepts are derived from instances of objects.
You seem to be defining 'infinite' as about 3 different things at the same time, and yet using the existence of one to prove the existence of another.
The argument doesn't seem to have any firm philosophical basis. We do not know whether God is relevant or irrelevant to our state of being.
your argument posits that based on the concept of infinity, god may have nothing to do with us
however, you make the mistake of integrating infinity into your argument, which means that there are an infinite number of ways that god is associated with us in the infinite universe
[QUOTE=CrashLemon;36564513]Let's say you can accept that an infinite being exists (God), you therefore accept the concept of infinity. If you fathom infinity, you can thus say that the universe is possibly infinite (in time). Consequently, the lack of creation could mean that God had nothing to do with "us", the universe.
All in all, even if there was a God, it wouldn't change anything for us.
Would it?[/QUOTE]
Ok, your argoment is a complete non sequitur. Let's analyze it:
"Let's say you can accept that an infinite being exists (God), you therefore accept the concept of infinity"
Yes, no problem here.
"If you fathom infinity, you can thus say that the universe is possibly infinite (in time)"
Here's the non sequitur. You're jumping from "You can understand infinity from the concept of God" to "The Universe is infinite". There is no link between the two propositions. Why is the universe infinite? (in time?) Because God created it? Well, God could create something finite, for as much as we know.
"Consequently, the lack of creation could mean that God had nothing to do with "us", the universe."
This is just a strange mix of epicureism and platonism.
Apart from the non sequitur, what undermined your entire reasoning is that you said that you get the idea of God, an infinite being, from the concept of infinity. It's a vicious circle: I accept that there is God, who is infinite, therefore I accept infinity. Where did you get that concept of infinity in the first place? It's the opposite: the idea of infinity is innate, and you get God from it. It's the first Cartesian proof of the existence of God.
With the discovery of the Higgs boson, we can clearly see that an infinite universe is possible.
With a book, we can vaguely see that an infinite god is possible.
Now tell me, which do you think is more credible? Science or a book with no evidence?
[QUOTE=JJ Isaac;36619363]With the discovery of the Higgs boson, we can clearly see that an infinite universe is possible.
With a book, we can vaguely see that an infinite god is possible.
Now tell me, which do you think is more credible? Science or a book with no evidence?[/QUOTE]
We've discovered the Higgs boson and what has it got to do with infinity?
"then the universe can also exists by itself"
I'm sorry what? I am not sure what are trying to say.
[QUOTE=Thom12255;36619392]We've discovered the Higgs boson and what has it got to do with infinity?[/QUOTE]
Well, this particle essentially allows most of theoretical quantum mechanics to now be seen as more than just a crazy idea.
The reason I say this is because of several things:
1) When you are start going into string theory and the theory of the multiverse, most of it relies on the existence of this Higgs boson.
2) If all that is proven, we will have proved that there is an infinite fuel source coming from a quantum field that is so massive that big bangs would have to constantly, and forever, occur.
I suppose by this I am trying to say that the discovery of this particle allows for new dimensions. Constant new universes. Infinity.
EDIT:
Also, I really only used the term "infinite" in order to stay relative the OP. By the term infinite, I am essentially saying the universe can exist on it's on.
god doesn't exist, if god existed and could create the universe we know, then why would he allow children to starve to death, allow people to murder each other, to allow people to have the ability to be evil and do bad things? why, if god is real, did he banish adam and eve after eve ate the apple? surely he could just destroy them both and start again? the bible doesn't describe creating life as too hard for god, surely if god is all knowing he would've known eve would eat the apple and that by banishing them they would spread the human race? and if he banished them on purpose for the human race to spread, then why would he punish the human race? so you see, god was created by humans, that is why god is so flawed.
[QUOTE=geoface;36620024]god doesn't exist, if god existed and could create the universe we know, then why would he allow children to starve to death, allow people to murder each other, to allow people to have the ability to be evil and do bad things? why, if god is real, did he banish adam and eve after eve ate the apple? surely he could just destroy them both and start again? the bible doesn't describe creating life as too hard for god, surely if god is all knowing he would've known eve would eat the apple and that by banishing them they would spread the human race? and if he banished them on purpose for the human race to spread, then why would he punish the human race? so you see, god was created by humans, that is why god is so flawed.[/QUOTE]
If you follow the Christian line of thinking God gave humanity free will which is why bad things happen, not because he is disinterested
[QUOTE=Satane;36633993]if he did exist, why would he take personal interest in sacks of meat that "live" for a fraction of time in the vast existance he created ?
if god is real he has nothing to do with the bible and other ridiculous claims other religions make.[/QUOTE]
If he created us, he wanted to create us, which means he cares for us.
[QUOTE=Dumbalias;36619637][video=youtube;hOaLlyRId4I]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOaLlyRId4I&feature=plcp[/video][/QUOTE]
This is such a good fucking video. I've actually used this argument on christians before, and they almost always respond with 'God found a way to make it work', or 'It says in the Bible, so it's obviously true'
[QUOTE=MountainWatcher;36643961]If he created us, he wanted to create us, which means he cares for us.[/QUOTE]
We create things all the time that we don't necessarily care about. I don't think one implies the other.
[QUOTE=xiohexia;36644314]We create things all the time that we don't necessarily care about. I don't think one implies the other.[/QUOTE]
Why do you create something if you do not want it to exist? It may be the smallest of wishes but it's there.
[QUOTE=MountainWatcher;36644340]Why do you create something if you do not want it to exist? It may be the smallest of wishes but it's there.[/QUOTE]
You might want it to exist, but you couldn't give two fucks about it.
no man god is just a concept of the fucking universe and time its all one thing thats why the universe is always expanding because fucking time is infinite, we werent created by the universe but if you think about it we were simply because we exist in it think about it
[QUOTE=MountainWatcher;36644340]Why do you create something if you do not want it to exist? It may be the smallest of wishes but it's there.[/QUOTE]
No. You said "he cares for us". Wanting something to exist and caring for it are two very different things. Trash bags for instance are created for a specific purpose. I could not care less about each individual trash bag, or even the whole box. They might serve their purpose, and they might fall apart. Either way matters not to me. Their contribution to my life is insignificant. If God cared for us "trash bags" wouldn't he fix every little problem in our small and insignificant lives so that we could serve his purposes?
The only purpose of life that I can surmise is to attempt to continue evolving infinitely.
No, man. God is just a concept of the fucking Universe and Time; It's all one thing. That's why the Universe is always expanding; because fucking time is infinite. We weren't created by the universe, but if you think about it, we were simply, because we exist in it. Think about it.
I actually had to correct that to read it, and it still doesn't make sense.
[editline]6th July 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=xiohexia;36644490]No. You said "he cares for us". Wanting something to exist and caring for it are two very different things. Trash bags for instance are created for a specific purpose. I could not care less about each individual trash bag, or even the whole box. They might serve their purpose, and they might fall apart. Either way matters not to me. Their contribution to my life is insignificant. If God cared for us "trash bags" wouldn't he fix every little problem in our small and insignificant lives so that we could serve his purposes?
The only purpose of life that I can surmise is to attempt to continue evolving infinitely.[/QUOTE]
This. If we where created by a 'God', and if we actually meant something to him, he would treat us like it.
[url]http://www.mit.edu/people/dpolicar/writing/prose/text/godTaoist.html[/url]
This conversation isn't entirely related to this debate, but I wanted to post it because it is really interesting.
[QUOTE=Dumbalias;36619637][video=youtube;hOaLlyRId4I]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOaLlyRId4I&feature=plcp[/video][/QUOTE]
Interesting video, it brings up a confusing thought.
Imagine you have a random number generator. It will generate a number. Before hand, it is undeniable that what will happen will happen. What will happen during a timeline will happen, whether it is known or not. The number that will be generated will be generated, although it will come from the random generator.
Once it has been generated, was it random? It was a number randomly generated, but it was certain to happen. Was it both predestined and random? It was created by a random number generator, so how could it not be random? It was going to happen, so how could it not be predestined?
I know nothing about the multiple universe theory with the splitting timelines and stuff, but maybe that is an explanation that is used.
What's a god?
[QUOTE=GrassyBat;36645042]Interesting video, it brings up a confusing thought.
Imagine you have a random number generator. It will generate a number. Before hand, it is undeniable that what will happen will happen. What will happen during a timeline will happen, whether it is known or not. The number that will be generated will be generated, although it will come from the random generator.
Once it has been generated, was it random? It was a number randomly generated, but it was certain to happen. Was it both predestined and random? It was created by a random number generator, so how could it not be random? It was going to happen, so how could it not be predestined?
I know nothing about the multiple universe theory with the splitting timelines and stuff, but maybe that is an explanation that is used.[/QUOTE]
wouldn't it only be totally random if nobody saw which number it generated? if nobody knows what number it is then it could be absolutely anything, but if anybody anywhere knows the number, it can only be one thing. so say it generates the number 17, right? we now know it to be 17, it can't be anything else, it is, as you say, predestined. but if we didn't know the number, it could have generated anything, and as we wouldn't know, the result is totally up in the air. so it's random, and if it's random, then it can't have possibly been predestined.
I'm not very educated on these kinds of things, but it makes sense to me.
[QUOTE=Sqwerp;36570827]The argument doesn't seem to have any firm philosophical basis. We do not know whether God is relevant or irrelevant to our state of being.[/QUOTE]
You are right, I wanted to say the same thing. The thread could have ended with your post.
Also OP, might be interesting for you to know what a [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demiurge]Demiurge[/url] is
let's say it doesn't matter, but if you wish to believe, then it's okay but you'll never know.
And before people say it's disastrous, not everyone on Earth is a scientist..
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