Debt 'putting off' medical students, BMA warns - Polidicks

[URL]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-18128637[/URL] [QUOTE][B]The prospect of high student debt and increased pension contributions could discourage young people from entering medicine, a doctor has warned.[/B] Tom Dolphin, of the British Medical Association, told the Junior Doctors Conference that students paying £9,000 tuition fees will have debts of up to £70,000 by the time they start working. He urged delegates to fight government plans to change the NHS pension scheme. Health minister Simon Burns said pension reform was "necessary". Ballot papers are being sent to 103,000 BMA members. It is the first time doctors have been balloted for industrial action since 1975. [B] 'Not much cheer' [/B] The government says the plans, under which the pension age would rise to 68, and contributions could reach 14.5% for the highest earners, are a "fair deal for staff and taxpayers". The result of the vote on pension changes is due at the end of the month. Dr Dolphin, chairman of the BMA's Junior Doctor Committee, said: "At the moment, it is genuinely hard to find much cause for cheer." The government wants us to pay more and work longer for what will probably be a worse pension” Tom Dolphin; BMA's Junior Doctor Committee Addressing the conference in central London, he said: "We need to put up a fight. Imagine for a moment you were applying for a place at medical school right now. With £9,000 tuition fees you will be facing debts on graduation of up to £70,000. "When you start working, a big chunk of your salary will be used to repay these debts. With salaries frozen for many years, your starting salary will have been eroded by inflation. "And on top of that you will be faced with increased pension contributions." He added: "The burden of austerity is falling too hard on the shoulders of the younger generation and we are seeing this in medicine, too. "With a future like this, will medicine still be able to attract and retain some of the most talented young people? Would you still make the choice to study medicine?" [B] 'Fair' deal [/B] Doctors at the start of their careers would be hardest hit, having to pay hundreds of thousands of pounds extra - double what they would have paid - in lifetime pensions contributions, according to the BMA. Dr Dolphin said: "The government wants us to pay more and work longer for what will probably be a worse pension. "The extra contributions add up to more than £200,000 for many junior doctors." Health Minister Simon Burns said there was "no justification" for doctors to take industrial action and that it would "gain them nothing". "Our proposals mean doctors will continue to receive pensions that are among the highest in the public or private sectors," he said. "A doctor joining the new scheme after 2015 could expect a pension of around £68,000 per year at state retirement age." "Pension reform is necessary because people are living longer, healthier lives. "Our proposals are a fair deal for staff and taxpayers and make public service pensions affordable and sustainable." He added: "It is fair that higher earners pay greater contributions relative to those on lower and middle incomes. "Lower earner members should not be footing the bill - that is why we have protected those on lower salaries." [/QUOTE] I've considered medicine, but it is way to costly for me to get into. In all honesty, it's this way in almost every field. From Law to Medicine, if you want to go to a decent college or even consider getting a doctorate, it is just way to much money to be worth it.

[QUOTE=valkery;36046741]From Law to Medicine, if you want to go to a decent college or even consider getting a doctorate, it is just way to much money to be worth it.[/QUOTE] Financially? No. The average medical school student comes out with $141,132 in debt. The median annual salary for a family practice physician is $178,440.

[QUOTE=Pantz76;36047143]Financially? No. The average medical school student comes out with $141,132 in debt. The median annual salary for a family practice physician is $178,440.[/QUOTE] Okay, that may be true, but look at how many years of schooling that they have to go through before they are able to make that amount. It isn't even just the financial aspect though. At least when you go for medicine you have a fairly decent chance of getting a job. If you're going to try to get into the Law field, forget it. The market is so over saturated right now that you are lucky to get a job as a part-time paralegal. Just ask Lankist. I know you guys probably don't entirely enjoy his posts, but the dude has real world experience with trying to find a job in law.

No wonder, tuition fees are ridiculous.

[QUOTE=Pantz76;36047143]Financially? No. The average medical school student comes out with $141,132 in debt. The median annual salary for a family practice physician is $178,440.[/QUOTE] Because a fresh doctor out of medical school is going to pay it off all at once. That's years of debt after bills and such.

[QUOTE=winsanity;36047203]Because a fresh doctor out of medical school is going to pay it off all at once. That's years of debt after bills and such.[/QUOTE] I'm not claiming that the years of schooling and slowly paying off the debt at first wouldn't be difficult. I am simply stating the fact that eventually when a doctor gets on his feet, it is VERY worth it financially.

[QUOTE=winsanity;36047203]Because a fresh doctor out of medical school is going to pay it off all at once. That's years of debt after bills and such.[/QUOTE] If you can keep your student debt under what you make yearly out of school, you are actually doing pretty well.

[QUOTE=Pantz76;36047143]Financially? No. The average medical school student comes out with $141,132 in debt. The median annual salary for a family practice physician is $178,440.[/QUOTE] So you just decided to ignore the fact that this is a story about the UK and cite some US numbers? Time for a fucking golf clap.

[QUOTE=Pantz76;36047143]Financially? No. The average medical school student comes out with $141,132 in debt. The median annual salary for a family practice physician is $178,440.[/QUOTE] Except doctors don't instantly become GP's when they graduate, they have to go through the (necessary) rigour of being junior doctors first, which in the the NHS is £22,412 a year. It's not bad, but compared to the possible £60,000 of debt a med student can emerge from uni with, it's a hell of sum.

You know Why do people go to medical school in their homelands when they can goto school in places like Aruba where they can get certification and what not for cheaper and faster? I know some places don't accept from them but hey you pay less debt than normally you would in your native country.

[QUOTE=pyschomc;36047619]You know Why do people go to medical school in their homelands when they can goto school in places like Aruba where they can get certification and what not for cheaper and faster? I know some places don't accept from them but hey you pay less debt than normally you would in your native country.[/QUOTE] Your education suffers, and therefore, so do your patients. No person who should have a Doctorate would do that to their patients.

Well with tuition going up everywhere what do you expect. More and more people are going to college and university but they keep jacking up the price. If anything it should be lower..its almost not even worth getting a degree in some fields because the cost outweighs the benefits. You can get on-the-job training or experience in that field, sure it takes a bit longer but you don't have to worry about out of pocket expenses. Sucks, I personally like university. I like the fact I'm learning more, but the price keeps going up and they're denying me more and more grants and other student aid.

That's why nursing is better. If you want to further your career, go back to school and do a few more years for Nurse anesthetist, Nurse Practitioner, Nurse Midwife etc, which make more money.

No fucking shit! Another study by Captain Obvious it seems. Hell, debt is the reason I haven't taken out any student loans myself, and I just want to head to NADC for a few semesters.

University should be like every other education, paid by the government

70k pounds, and that's with a semi-socialized university system. Imagine what students in the US are saddled with.

Maybe I should be a doctor and steal your jobs

[QUOTE=download;36047996]University should be like every other education, paid by the government[/QUOTE] Whitlam's Government in the 70s in Australia did that. Many people from disadvantaged families could still not apply though because of not finishing secondary education. Also, too many people abused the system and by the end of the 80s fees were reintroduced. However, the government still pays a majority of the fees.

[QUOTE=Antdawg;36051162]Whitlam's Government in the 70s in Australia did that. Many people from disadvantaged families could still not apply though because of not finishing secondary education. Also, too many people abused the system and by the end of the 80s fees were reintroduced. However, the government still pays a majority of the fees.[/QUOTE] It's been like that in Scandinavia for decades.

[QUOTE=Antdawg;36051162]Also, too many people abused the system and by the end of the 80s fees were reintroduced. However, the government still pays a majority of the fees.[/QUOTE] what kinda abuse?

[QUOTE=C47;36051325]what kinda abuse?[/QUOTE] Too many people got an education. It was expensive.

So what if they don't finish their education? They can't get into university, tough shit, go to school

I got onto my degree in the last year before they hiked the prices up, I'm still going to come out with about £15,000 debt though ($25,000) Its funny because it doesnt really feel like its worth it at all, unless people do really specialist subjects then right now a large amount of the ones graduating end up not getting a job in their field for a while, or at least not specifically what they wanted. Someone in my family quit school at 16, got a job and worked her way up and now shes like 24 and makes enough money to live comfortable and raise a kid, whereas her sister did sixth form, went to uni for 4 years, came out with a degree and has been working in a department store for two years with seemingly no chance of getting a job in her field any time soon. [QUOTE=Antdawg;36051828] Simply put, people who don't intend to go to university see no point in staying at school, so when they leave but later on decide to go to university, they can't because they didn't finish Year 12 (which is a requirement for admission to universities).[/QUOTE] Not true. You can do things like national diplomas at most colleges which get you a qualification to go to university. I didnt do sixth form and went straight to college, in England its free for under 18s but you can pay like £1000 a year for two years and come out with the needed qualification for university. I had an interview with Teesside (Which is considered the best uni in the country to go to for games dev students) and they even accepted my qualification. Some guy on my games development course was like 30 without any other qualifications and he ended up going to uni straight off the course.

[QUOTE=download;36051630]So what if they don't finish their education? They can't get into university, tough shit, go to school[/QUOTE] There were multiple problems with the implementation of Whitlam's scheme that should have been considered. Up until a few years ago, a student could leave school at the age of 15, no questions asked (now it's 17, however you can leave earlier if you secure yourself an apprenticeship or something similar). Most disadvantaged people would be the sons and daughters of tradies, and saw no need in staying to finish Year 12 as it would offer them no benefit at all (with no intention of going to university as they would ultimately follow in their parents' steps). Instead, they could leave when they have their 15th and apply at a technical or trade college, which didn't require one to actually be at school to apply with. This is still done today even though the leaving age was raised to 17, I'm in Year 12 and there are half as many people currently in Year 12 at my school compared to back in Year 10 (although my example is probably extreme because I'm in a poor area). In other words, people who don't intend to go to university see no point in staying at school, so when they leave but later on decide to go to university, they can't because they didn't finish Year 12 (which is a requirement for admission to universities). However, the government has at least done some things to make the situation better, ie students can follow a compromise where they can study at a technical college alongside school (called TVET in my state at least, I do a TVET course myself for the bonus qualification but I still intend to go to uni), this can also potentially contribute to the final exams (only for some board of studies endorsed courses though). If one doesn't finish Year 12 or reckons they didn't do it too well they can do it again through certain programmes after school. It might be a better time to remove university fees about now, but you still don't know. Perhaps something to worry about is people who stay in university for significant portions of their life doing full-time courses constantly, taking advantage of government hand outs to full-time students, never actually being dedicated to the course and potentially preventing those who actually do want to study those courses from applying due to the courses being full.

Debt is putting off many students, not just medical ones. Education is expensive as shit.

[QUOTE=Cushie;36051824]Not true. You can do things like national diplomas at most colleges which get you a qualification to go to university. I didnt do sixth form and went straight to college, in England its free for under 18s but you can pay like £1000 a year for two years and come out with the needed qualification for university. I had an interview with Teesside (Which is considered the best uni in the country to go to for games dev students) and they even accepted my qualification. Some guy on my games development course was like 30 without any other qualifications and he ended up going to uni straight off the course.[/QUOTE] This is in Australia, but yes as I mentioned the government here has implemented programmes to allow individuals to apply for university if they haven't finished secondary education.

[QUOTE=Pantz76;36047143]Financially? No. The average medical school student comes out with [b]$141,132[/b] in debt. The median annual salary for a family practice physician is $178,440.[/QUOTE] Wow! are you kidding me? Who has that kind of money other than rich people!?

This is why i refuse to go to school, Because if i was in this much debt i would literally probably blow my head off... :suicide: The reason why is because i don't like owing anyone anything..

By the time I finish University,I will [i]only[/i] owe 35k.... Assuming I don't change degrees or do another on top of the one I'm doing already

I wonder how big of a correlation there is between education fees and later life income disparity. I mean, if only the rich can truly afford schools like this without being overburdened right out of uni, wouldn't it be reasonable to assume education is a prime mover when it comes to something like that?