• Mariupol being Indiscriminately Shelled: 21 Dead and 60 Wounded
    63 replies, posted
[quote]Indiscriminate rocket fire that hit a market, schools and homes Saturday in Ukraine's strategically important coastal city of Mariupol killed at least 21 people, authorities said. Mariupol lies on the Azov Sea and is the major city between mainland Russia and the Russia-annexed Crimean Peninsula. Heavy fighting in the region in the autumn raised fears that Russian-backed separatist forces would try to establish a land link between Russia and Crimea. Rebel forces have positions within 10 kilometers (six miles) from Mariupol's eastern outskirts. The Defense Ministry said in a statement that there were three separate strikes from Grad multiple rocket launchers on Mariupol and surrounding areas. "The area that came under attack was massive," Mariupol mayor Yuriy Khotlubei said in a video statement. "The shelling was carried out by militants. This is very clearly Russian aggression that has caused terrible losses for the residents of the eastern part of our city." The Donetsk region prosecutor's office said in a mid-afternoon statement that 21 people had been killed. Defense and police officials said rockets struck homes, a kindergarten, a market and shops. There was no immediate report of how many people died in various locations. A Ukrainian military checkpoint on a road leading out of the city toward rebel-held areas was also hit and one serviceman was killed, the Defense Ministry said. Rocket strikes on Mariupol come as separatists have declared their intention to mount a multi-pronged offensive aimed at vastly increasing the territory under their control. That would definitively upend recent European attempts to mediate an end to the fighting. Mariupol city council urged residents not to panic and to ignore rumors that Ukrainian armed forces were planning to withdraw. "On the contrary, all units are on fully battle-ready. Security measures in the city have been strengthened," the council said in a statement. No armed separatist units have been noted moving toward the city, the statement added. The U.N. human rights agency on Friday raised its estimate of the conflict's overall death toll to nearly 5,100 since April. On Thursday, mortars rained down on the center of the separatist stronghold of Donetsk, hitting a bus and killing several bystanders. Rebel officials said 13 were killed in that attack. Monitors from the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe cited city morgue officials as saying they have received eight bodies. On Jan. 13, a bus parked near an army checkpoint north of Mariupol was hit by a shell, resulting in the death of 13 people. Ukraine blamed the rocket attack on separatists. The OSCE's special monitoring mission (SMM) in east Ukraine on Saturday expressed concern over the growing number of civilian casualties and called for restraint from all sides. "The SMM strongly condemns the continuation of the fighting in residential areas. Using residential areas as firing positions attracts counter-firing to these areas, further endangering the lives of civilians," the mission said in a statement. Clashes are taking place across the eastern regions of Donetsk and Luhansk, where separatist insurgencies emerged in April following Russia's annexation of Ukraine's Crimean Peninsula. [/quote] [url=http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/10-reported-killed-rocket-fire-mariupol-ukraine-28447614]ABC[/url] [t]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B8GrZxhIUAAAiv5.jpg:large[/t][t]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B8G-Ah1CAAEzpO3.jpg:large[/t]
Rebels claim it were Ukrainian GRADs shooting from a village of Stary Krim currently controlled by Ukrainians. Some civillians on the internet think that GRADS shooting from the Mariupol airport, above the city, towards rebel positions north east, and hit the city. Just so you have an alternative point of view. It's unclear yet who is responsible, most likely we will never find out. Both sides will blame eachother like they always do though.
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;47001083]It's unclear yet who is responsible, most luckily we will never find out.[/QUOTE] Why would not knowing who did it be a good thing?
[QUOTE=Deng;47001132]Why would not knowing who did it be a good thing?[/QUOTE] Thanks. Misspelt it. I fixed it.
Why would the urkaine hit its own city instead of rebels outside of the city doesnt seem very logic. Oh yes i forgot ! because they are evil nazi jewish CIA agents send by obama !! *sarcasm*
[QUOTE=semper solus;47001471]Why would the urkaine hit its own city instead of rebels outside of the city doesnt seem very logic. Oh yes i forgot ! because they are evil nazi jewish CIA agents send by obama !! *sarcasm*[/QUOTE] Well, Ukrainian press has been claiming all the Donetsk bombardments were done by rebels themselves (rebels shot an air conditioner with a Strela because it attracted the heat guided missile etc etc ) for half a year and I don't remember you objecting. Rebels don't imply Ukrainians shot their own city on purporse, rebels imply Ukrainians fucked up with artillery guidance.
This is legitimately the most retarded conflict in modern times. I feel like both sides should be sent some sort of trophy.
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;47001495]Well, Ukrainian press has been claiming all the Donetsk bombardments were done by rebels themselves (rebels shot an air conditioner with a Strela because it attracted the heat guided missile etc etc ) for half a year and I don't remember you objecting. Rebels don't imply Ukrainians shot their own city on purporse, rebels imply Ukrainians fucked up with artillery guidance.[/QUOTE] that would mean the ukrainian army is really full of retards and idiots, and yes the urkainian press is just one sided like RT and CNN would be logic that the seperatists bombed mariupol because just yesterday it also got bombed by seperatists
[QUOTE=semper solus;47001548]that would mean the ukrainian army is really full of retards and idiots, and yes the urkainian press is just one sided like RT and CNN would be logic that the seperatists bombed mariupol because just yesterday it also got bombed by seperatists[/QUOTE] Generally if both sides stopped using artillery in civillian popualted areas we wouldn't see that.
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;47001560]Generally if both sides stopped using artillery in civillian popualted areas we wouldn't see that.[/QUOTE] indeed but both sides want to get International powers to jump in, i think thats why they do al these idiotic actions
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;47001560]Generally if both sides stopped using artillery in civillian popualted areas we wouldn't see that.[/QUOTE] Yeah, if only the rebels would stop doing that.
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;47001083]Rebels claim it were Ukrainian GRADs shooting from a village of Stary Krim currently controlled by Ukrainians. Some civillians on the internet think that GRADS shooting from the Mariupol airport, above the city, towards rebel positions north east, and hit the city. Just so you have an alternative point of view. It's unclear yet who is responsible, most likely we will never find out. Both sides will blame eachother like they always do though.[/QUOTE] Sorry but even artillery grunts aren't that retarded to mess up rocket trajectory. You don't just accidentally hit a large city you weren't even aiming for. It's obviously rebel grads. In their minds probably giving Ukrainians a taste of their own medicine with all the shelling of Donetsk going on. [editline]24th January 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=MuffinZerg;47001560]Generally if both sides stopped using artillery in civillian popualted areas we wouldn't see that.[/QUOTE] Hard to pull punches and fight a war at the same time. Well I mean they are pulling punches but maybe not for much longer with the recent build up of fighting.
The rebels launched and even admitted they did. You think they care who they kill? The rebels don't care, they'll kill innocents just to get a point across. They use apartments as cover, same with schools and other civilian infrastructure. They have propaganda support from Russia. No one reports on the rebels cowardly tactics, they do report on Ukraine killing civilians though. This in turn drives up support for the rebels.
[QUOTE=Aman;47001700]Sorry but even artillery grunts aren't that retarded to mess up rocket trajectory. You don't just accidentally hit a large city you weren't even aiming for. It's obviously rebel grads. In their minds probably giving Ukrainians a taste of their own medicine with all the shelling of Donetsk going on. [/QUOTE] Maybe, maybe not. Rebels fucked up with artillery at Volnovaha, they didn't indend to hit it. 15 people died in a bus. Ukrainians fucked up with artillery and shot a tram stop in Lugansk. 17 people died in a tram. Did they intend to hit it? Probably not. Artillery is no precision weapon and that's why NATO rarely uses it (almost never nowdays). Too much collateral damage, too low efficiency. There is nothing "obvious" until there are facts. But the only obvious fact is that civillians died.
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;47001768]Maybe, maybe not. Rebels fucked up with artillery at Volnovaha, they didn't indend to hit it. 15 people died in a bus. Ukrainians fucked up with artillery and shot a tram stop in Lugansk. 17 people died in a tram. Did they intend to hit it? Probably not. Artillery is no precision weapon and that's why NATO rarely uses it (almost never nowdays). Too much collateral damage, too low efficiency. There is nothing "obvious" until there are facts. But the only obvious fact is that civillians died.[/QUOTE] I may be wrong but that mess up at Volnovaha was like a range difference of 200-300m or so, hitting the traffic on the road rather than hitting the outpost nearby. Makes sense. Ukrainians going [I]waaay[/I] off and somehow shelling their own city? Yeah I don't think so.
[QUOTE=Pilot1215;47001764]The rebels launched and even admitted they did. You think they care who they kill? The rebels don't care, they'll kill innocents just to get a point across. They use apartments as cover, same with schools and other civilian infrastructure. They have propaganda support from Russia. No one reports on the rebels cowardly tactics, they do report on Ukraine killing civilians though. This in turn drives up support for the rebels.[/QUOTE] I thought CNN, BBC and all of Ukrainian press only reports on rebels cowardly tactics. Both sides are fighting information wars and I think Ukrainians are better at it because we always hear how cruel the rebels are and "they don't care who they kill". That's the main reason the automatic assumtion about this Mariupol bombing is that rebels did it while no facts point at it.
If the rebels take control of this city, don't they basically take control of all of Donetsk?
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;47001787]I thought CNN, BBC and all of Ukrainian press only reports on rebels cowardly tactics. Both sides are fighting information wars and I think Ukrainians are better at it because we always hear how cruel the rebels are and "they don't care who they kill". That's the main reason the automatic assumtion about this Mariupol bombing is that rebels did it while no facts point at it.[/QUOTE] [url]http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/25/world/europe/at-least-10-killed-in-rocket-attack-in-eastern-ukraine-port-city.html?_r=0[/url] [quote=NY Times]A leader of the Russian-backed rebels, Aleksandr Zakharchenko, has said his forces are now on the offensive, and [b]on Saturday he said that a military assault had begun against Mariupol, a strongly pro-Ukrainian seaside city with a prewar population of about 400,000 but now also bulging with thousands of refugees from Crimea and elsewhere in eastern Ukraine.[/b][/quote] There's your fact. Rebels did it, and admitted to it. [editline]24th January 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Pantz Master;47001809]If the rebels take control of this city, don't they basically take control of all of Donetsk?[/QUOTE] No, Mariupol is in the south end of the conflict. All Mariupol would do if taken by the Rebels is allow another corridor for Russian troops, equipment, etc to pour through the Russian border near Novoazovsk.
[QUOTE=purvisdavid1;47001810][URL]http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/25/world/europe/at-least-10-killed-in-rocket-attack-in-eastern-ukraine-port-city.html?_r=0[/URL] There's your fact. Rebels did it, and admitted to it. [/QUOTE] Cue "but that's western propaganda" excuse [QUOTE=MuffinZerg;47001843]So where did they say "we did the shelling". They admitted to assault. Just like Ukraine admits assault against Donetsk, but doesn't admit shellings of Donetsk.[/QUOTE] Trying to word play, even better. They assaulted it by shelling.
[QUOTE=purvisdavid1;47001810][url]http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/25/world/europe/at-least-10-killed-in-rocket-attack-in-eastern-ukraine-port-city.html?_r=0[/url] There's your fact. Rebels did it, and admitted to it. [editline]24th January 2015[/editline] No, Mariupol is in the south end of the conflict. All Mariupol would do if taken by the Rebels is allow another corridor for Russian troops, equipment, etc to pour through the Russian border near Novoazovsk.[/QUOTE] So where did they say "we did the shelling". They admitted to assault. Just like Ukraine admits assault against Donetsk, but doesn't admit shellings of Donetsk.
[QUOTE=Gwoodman;47001832]Cue "but that's western propaganda" excuse[/QUOTE] [url]http://rt.com/news/225891-mariupol-eastern-ukraine-shelling/[/url] [editline]24th January 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=MuffinZerg;47001843]So where did they say "we did the shelling". They admitted to assault. Just like Ukraine admits assault against Donetsk, but doesn't admit shellings of Donetsk.[/QUOTE] Jesus FUCKING Christ. Are you serious?
[QUOTE=purvisdavid1;47001810] No, Mariupol is in the south end of the conflict. All Mariupol would do if taken by the Rebels is allow another corridor for Russian troops, equipment, etc to pour through the Russian border near Novoazovsk.[/QUOTE] No, DNR doesn't need any new corridors, the existing ones are sufficient. Mariupol might provide sea access though. For clarification [img]http://i.gyazo.com/7416b2b31cb59b102de6644ab91b1296.png[/img]
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;47001843]They admitted to assault.[/QUOTE] There you go. So they did admit to it.
[QUOTE=purvisdavid1;47001847] Jesus FUCKING Christ. Are you serious?[/QUOTE] I just love debating with you because you are always so constructive, informative and open minded. [editline]24th January 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Gwoodman;47001860]There you go. So they did admit to it.[/QUOTE] And you my friend.
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;47001864]I just love debating with you because you are always so constructive, informative and open minded. [editline]24th January 2015[/editline] And you my friend.[/QUOTE] They say "We admit to assaulting Mariupol" And yet you deny it for some reason??
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;47001857]No, DNR doesn't need any new corridors, the existing ones are sufficient. Mariupol might provide sea access though. [/QUOTE] How can one be perfectly fine with their country bastardizing their closest ancestral neighbor's land, sovereignty, and people? [editline]24th January 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=MuffinZerg;47001864]I just love debating with you because you are always so constructive, informative and open minded.[/QUOTE] Oh good you understand what sarcasm is. Also offtopic, but what the fuck gwoodman, I can't stop laughing at that picture.
[QUOTE=Gwoodman;47001832]Cue "but that's western propaganda" excuse Trying to word play, even better. They assaulted it by shelling.[/QUOTE] Admiting to begin offensive does not means admitting shelling civil targets. Just sayin. As of my personal opinions. Rebels could do it, ukranians could do it(they could've tried to shell aproaching forces or maybe recon fucked up and said ''rebels already at X soo shoot at Z), but everyone is going to deny it and bend information in their favor. Soo I'd rather stick to ''both sides did their best too show how awfull their skills at warfare''. This should end, without any kind of victory by any side. It should just stop.
[QUOTE=karimatrix;47001910]Admiting to begin offensive does not means admitting shelling civil targets.[/QUOTE] Of course they aren't going to blatantly say they are purposely killing civilians...
[QUOTE=Gwoodman;47001933]Of course they aren't going to blatantly say they are purposely killing civilians...[/QUOTE] Neither did Ukranian forces when they sieged donbass cities for months. Yet nobody ever compared their ''confirmation'' of active warfare to ''admitance of purposeful kill of civilians'' in process.
[QUOTE=karimatrix;47001969]Neither did Ukranian forces when they sieged donbass cities for months. Yet nobody ever compared their ''confirmation'' of active warfare to ''admitance of purposeful kill of civilians'' in process.[/QUOTE] Yeah but those people you are talking about aren't me and I'm not denying Ukrainian shellings, so your point is irrelevant. [editline]24th January 2015[/editline] ironic rating to show you were left inarticulate
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