[quote](CBS News) The National September 11 Memorial and Museum's planned presentation of the World Trade Center cross-shaped steel beam, which became a famous Ground Zero symbol right after the September 11 attacks, is being legally challenged by an atheist group.
Last year, American Atheists sued the museum for the cross' removal, arguing that the steel beam promoted religion. Its legal director, Edwin Kagin, argued that the display represents "a violation of both federal and New York law in that public funds will be used to establish the Christian religion on public land."
This week, as previously reported by The New York Post and The New York Times, the museum filed court papers to have the lawsuit thrown out.
American Atheists' president, David Silverman, characterized the display as "a clear instance of a violation of the separation of church and state in its extreme."
"This shrine is a cross," Silverman told CBS News on Thursday. "It was picked up, trimmed, polished, the word 'Jesus' was carved on top of it, it was prayed over in front of a church for five years, and then it was installed in the WTC memorial with no warning by a priest in a religious service where in the ground was consecrated. This is a working Christian shrine in the memorial and then they had the gall to say it's not religious in nature, that it represents everybody. That's not true. It does not represent Jews, Muslims, Mormons or atheists, and they all had deaths on 9/11."
Silverman said that the museum should either remove the cross or acknowledge everybody else who died in the tragedy in a manner equal to Christians. "We're talking about public lands, we're talking about public funds, we're talking about congressionally ordered public funds. We're talking about an 18-foot memorial, this is grossly inappropriate. We feel very strongly that this is an attempt to Christianize 9/11, to make it about Christians, even though it's not about Christians at all."
When contacted by CBS News, the museum said it had no comments on Silverman's claims. As reported by other media outlets, the museum in its court filing characterized itself is an "independent non-profit corporation." It called the cross an "important and essential artifact" that "belongs at the World Trade Center site as it comprises a key component of the re-telling of the story of 9/11."
Michael Moreland, vice dean and professor of law at Villanova University School of Law in Pennsylvania, said there are two issues presented in this case. "If the court agrees with the Museum that it is a private non-profit organization," Morel told CBS News, "then the museum will win because a private party can't violate the Establishment Clause - only the government can.
"But, second, displays of religious symbols by the government aren't always unconstitutional. In 2010, a majority of the Supreme Court indicated that a memorial cross on government land in the Mojave Desert was constitutionally permissible because a reasonable observer wouldn't conclude that the government was 'endorsing' Christianity by displaying the cross on public land. Given the historical significance of the 9/11 cross during the Ground Zero cleanup, I think the museum has a strong argument that the cross's historical significance outweighs any perceived government endorsement of religion."
According to Peter Breen, executive and legal counsel for Thomas More Society, a Chicago-based law firm involved in pro-life, traditional marriage, and religious liberty issues, said that a private entity cannot violate one's constitutional rights.
"It appears based on the arguments of the lawyers of the museum," he said, "they're arguing from pretty solid ground - that a museum cannot be prohibited from displaying a historical item merely because the item has religious significance or is in viewed with religious significance by others. I think the lawyers for the museum were also right to condemn this as an attempt to revise the very history of the site by trying to keep the 9/11 cross out of the museum."
The museum's recent court filing to dismiss American Atheists' lawsuit was expected, according to Silverman."We think our lawsuit is not only valid but winnable," he said, "and it must be won in fact."[/quote]
Good job guys. Adding to the stereotype that all atheists are superficial people who want to remove "under one god" from coins and the national anthem.
Source: [URL]http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57494930/9-11-museum-atheists-spar-over-cross/[/URL]
Assholes.
Have some respect, for fucks sake.
I'm an Atheist too, however this is taking it too far.
"Eh, this doesn't go within my views on things...I want it removed."
I'm listening to an atheist debate this with the host on Fox News.
Never agreed with fox news more.
Well, they have a point - there should't only be Christian cross, why not to present other religious symbols?
And why the hell should something represent atheism? What can they choose for it?
I agree that other symbols should be put too. It's either add others or remove all.
Though atheism doesn't need a symbol, that's the whole point of atheism.
[QUOTE=Kefirman;37287366]Well, they have a point - there should't only be Christian cross, why not to present other religious symbols?
And why the hell should something represent atheism? What can they choose for it?[/QUOTE]
Flying Spaghetti Monster.
They might have a point but they should bring that point to the mayor of New York then, rather than resorting to vandalism.
Who cares about atheism? What about the Muslims who died on 9/11? How do you think they would feel being memorialized by a cross? I don't have a problem with it myself, but this is a perfectly legitimate case.
[QUOTE=Raidyr;37287417]Who cares about atheism? What about the Muslims who died on 9/11? How do you think they would feel being memorialized by a cross? I don't have a problem with it myself, but this is a perfectly legitimate case.[/QUOTE]
For a reasonable appeal by the injured parties
Not some intolerant assholes
[QUOTE=Kefirman;37287366]Well, they have a point - there should't only be Christian cross, why not to present other religious symbols?[/QUOTE]
It wasn't like they made a cross just for this memorial, the steel-beam cross was found in the rubble of the WTC. Although it does have some religious symbolism it is an artifact.
If they found something in the rubble that looked like a Star Of David or a Crecent then I wouldn't have any problem with them displaying it at the WTC memorial either.
I don't see why the atheists doing this have to throw a fit over everything. They should respect other people's beliefs if they want theirs respected. I don't really believe in god but I respect that other people do, and I'm happy for them that they found something that leads them to hope and better life in their eyes.
[quote]"This shrine is a cross," Silverman told CBS News on Thursday. "It was picked up, trimmed, polished, the word 'Jesus' was carved on top of it, it was prayed over in front of a church for five years, and then it was installed in the WTC memorial with no warning by a priest in a religious service where in the ground was consecrated. This is a working Christian shrine in the memorial and then they had the gall to say it's not religious in nature, that it represents everybody. That's not true.[B] It does not represent Jews, Muslims, Mormons or atheists, and they all had deaths on 9/11.[/B]"[/quote]
An atheist with the surname "Silverman".
[QUOTE=Ninja Duck;37287440]I don't see why the atheists doing this have to throw a fit over everything. They should respect other people's beliefs if they want theirs respected. I don't really believe in god but I respect that other people do, and I'm happy for them that they found something that leads them to hope and better life in their eyes.[/QUOTE]
That's all well and good for Christians but what about believers of other faiths?
No problem with it being represented as a historical artifact but the article makes it out to be a center-piece of the memorial.
"hmm how can we make everyone hate us"
I get where they're coming from, I do.
But doing this is a good way for Fox News Christians to say "Athiests [I]hate America[/I] and they [I]support 9/11[/I]."
I think it's really best to just let sleeping dogs lie.
[QUOTE=Raidyr;37287417]Who cares about atheism? What about the Muslims who died on 9/11? How do you think they would feel being memorialized by a cross? I don't have a problem with it myself, but this is a perfectly legitimate case.[/QUOTE]
Don't tear down one object to remember the lost, instead, put up another.
The cross has been used as a symbol for mourning/memorial for hundreds of years, I don't know why it's suddenly offensive.
If they don't believe why should a cross bother them?
They obviously aren't really atheist because they obviously believe Christ existed if this cross means something to them.
[QUOTE=Turnips5;37287449][/QUOTE]
Well, I'm sure that if they found a Crescent, Star of David, or girder bent to look like Carl Sagan's face, they would have put that up there too.
This is stupid and disrespectful.
This is just idiotic on part of the AA. It's not even a fucking religious symbol anymore, it's a cultural/historical one.
Yeah, let's throw away the Declaration of Independence too, it has the word God in it.
It was found in the wreckage of 9/11 and used as a memorial and shrine in the days after 9/11.
The steel cross definitely has a place in the museum, and anyone who tries to stop this is effectively trying to delete a part of 9/11 from history.
[IMG]http://practicaldoubt.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/wtccrossplaque.jpg[/IMG]
[QUOTE=Doneeh;37287508]t's not even a fucking religious symbol anymore, it's a cultural/historical one.[/QUOTE]
[quote]"This shrine is a cross," Silverman told CBS News on Thursday. [B]"It was picked up, trimmed, polished, the word 'Jesus' was carved on top of it, it was prayed over in front of a church for five years, and then it was installed in the WTC memorial with no warning by a priest in a religious service where in the ground was consecrated.[/B][/quote]
I love how Christians try to remove all aspects of other religion from things and they get support, but the second atheists try to do the same we're all assholes.
It's funny cause most peole here read the title and nothing else.
The atheist group wants all religions to be equally respected with some sort of universle mourning symbol.
It is just a beam that was polished up, but someone had the word Jesus carved into it, and that doesn't necessarily represent all religion.
They complain because the cross brings focus on a single group of people who died in 9/11. They don't want future generations to think it was some tragic only towards Christians.
And for this reason, despite the fact that it is intended to be "a sign of comfort for all" we want it removed and we are suing you.
(This was a reply to turnips5)
[QUOTE=mac338;37287473]Don't tear down one object to remember the lost, instead, put up another.[/QUOTE]
Your statement is fluffy and heart warming but not really substantiative; should we have memorials for every individual religion? What about atheism, deism? How do we know the religious beliefs of everyone who died that day in the attacks?
My idea would be to move it and place it somewhere that makes note of it's historical context, with the main part of the memorial being a wall or something similar that is spiritually-neutral. The cross is an important part of the culture of the site though I agree.
I still don't get why it's so awful that someone wrote "Jesus" on it.
Where does it say "All other religions don't exist and no one else but christians suffered"?
Exactly: It doesn't
It's [I]harmless[/I]
only problem I have is if it was done as a official government program or it was private, if the land is private I have no problem what they put on their but if it was government owned then I don't believe a cross should of been placed. A multiple of religious icons or maybe just a normal memorial statue would of been better? Why does it have to be a cross?
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