• IMF approves $17bn bailout for Ukraine
    25 replies, posted
[url]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-27233152[/url] [quote]The International Monetary Fund (IMF) has approved a $17.1bn (£10.1bn) bailout for Ukraine, to help the country's beleaguered economy. The money will be released over two years, with the first instalment of $3.2bn available immediately. The loan, pledged in March, is dependent on strict economic reforms, including raising taxes and energy prices, and freezing the minimum wage. The IMF loan will also unlock further funds worth $15bn from other donors. The head of the IMF, Christine Lagarde, said the loan was given the go-ahead because "decisive measures were taken by Ukraine".[/quote]
If I was an Ukrainian citizen I don't think I'd be excited about those terms.
This is exactly what the west wanted and now they have Ukraine by the balls. Same shit happens with all smaller countries as well. Whoever thinks that western countries actually cared about Ukranian people and their "freedom" instead of being scared of Russia and wanting geopolitical domination is delusional.
[QUOTE=Spirit_Breaker;44689856]This is exactly what the west wanted and now they have Ukraine by the balls. Same shit happens with all smaller countries as well. Whoever thinks that western countries actually cared about Ukranian people and their "freedom" instead of being scared of Russia and wanting geopolitical domination is delusional.[/QUOTE] Still cynical about the 90s?
[QUOTE=Spirit_Breaker;44689856]This is exactly what the west wanted and now they have Ukraine by the balls. Same shit happens with all smaller countries as well. Whoever thinks that western countries actually cared about Ukranian people and their "freedom" instead of being scared of Russia and wanting geopolitical domination is delusional.[/QUOTE] Well personally I think I would take my chances with the westerners if I was a Ukranian citizen then to have no choice with some russian pricks invading my country and shoving a gun in my face and saying do what I say or else.
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[QUOTE=Spirit_Breaker;44689856]This is exactly what the west wanted and now they have Ukraine by the balls. Same shit happens with all smaller countries as well. Whoever thinks that western countries actually cared about Ukranian people and their "freedom" instead of being scared of Russia and wanting geopolitical domination is delusional.[/QUOTE] Cry some more. Just because your country as well as practically the rest of the Balkans have ties to Russia, doesn't mean that the west is always evil no matter what it does. Boohoo, the west made you stop killing ethnic minorities and forced you to allow Kosovo autonomy twenty years ago, how evil.
[QUOTE=Spirit_Breaker;44689856]This is exactly what the west wanted and now they have Ukraine by the balls. Same shit happens with all smaller countries as well. Whoever thinks that western countries actually cared about Ukranian people and their "freedom" instead of being scared of Russia and wanting geopolitical domination is delusional.[/QUOTE] Yeah, obviously it was the West that made Ukraine a failed country that's now reliant on loans to survive
[QUOTE=Spirit_Breaker;44689856]This is exactly what the west wanted and now they have Ukraine by the balls. Same shit happens with all smaller countries as well. Whoever thinks that western countries actually cared about Ukranian people and their "freedom" instead of being scared of Russia and wanting geopolitical domination is delusional.[/QUOTE] [img]http://facepunch.com/fp/flags/rs.png[/img]
[QUOTE=ionuttzu;44691727]Yeah, obviously it was the West that made Ukraine a failed country that's now reliant on loans to survive[/QUOTE] Totally didn't have to do with Russians stripping Ukraine of anything of value and selling it off after the fall of the USSR
[QUOTE=Aide;44689793]If I was an Ukrainian citizen I don't think I'd be excited about those terms.[/QUOTE] Freezing minimum wage in an economic crisis is standard procedure to stop exploitation, no one is gonna get a pay raise in Ukraine right now anyway. Basically the IMF made sure the poor aren't gonna get fucked by the government and buisness
Hook, line and sinker.
[QUOTE=Paul McCartney;44689904]Still cynical about the 90s?[/QUOTE] Lmao that literally came out of nowhere. Quite a dumb post that generalizes because I'm Serbian. Of course I'm cynical when people were desperate enough that they were brainwashed into the nationalism. Though this would eventually happen anyway since there were signs of rebellion even while Tito was alive, but when he died there was no one left to "hold the leash". [QUOTE=Sobotnik;44691738][img]http://facepunch.com/fp/flags/rs.png[/img][/QUOTE] Epic. [QUOTE=Wafflemonstr;44690201]Cry some more. Just because your country as well as practically the rest of the Balkans have ties to Russia, doesn't mean that the west is always evil no matter what it does. Boohoo, the west made you stop killing ethnic minorities and forced you to allow Kosovo autonomy twenty years ago, how evil.[/QUOTE] The amount of uneducated, misinformed and biased people in this thread is baffling, but whatever I say you'll just go for "lol Serb" card. It's downright pathetic. It's pretty sad how uneducated you are about the whole Kosovo thing yet you write like you know everything about it. The only pro-Russia country left during the 90's was Serbia, which is why she was so demonized while the war crimes of the other countries were swept under the rug. This is not me denying Srebrenica (even tho there were goddamn UN forces just standing and watching it there for no reason??), I'm saying that there were mass rape and executions perpetrated by the other sides as well, but that kind of news never made it to the western media. I don't even know how many of you actually know that 300 000 Serbian civilians were forced out of the Croatia by the end of the war and majority of them can't get their homes back now. If you want to act so smart, at least read about Albanian Mafia (where current Kosovo officials were on the top of Interpool's most wanted list before they were removed), Yellow houses (where 150+ Serbians were taken and had their organs harvested without anesthesia while someone is actively trying to hide it (Del Ponte only came out with this information after she served her time and even then they forbade her to say anything more) as witnesses were killed 1 by 1), events during 80's and 97-98, as well as their attempt to claim independence during Yugoslav wars (where there were factually no crimes committed on Kosovo that people can claim for casus belli). If you decided to educate yourself a bit more on the matter then I'll gladly discuss it with you, but I really doubt you'll do that. There are 15+ million Serbians all over the world, but that doesn't stop FP bandwagon marking me as a "Putin worshiper, genocide denier" and what not. [QUOTE=ionuttzu;44691727]Yeah, obviously it was the West that made Ukraine a failed country that's now reliant on loans to survive[/QUOTE] No that's the corruption's fault, but they were reliant on Russia, not on the West. Why do you think that situation is any better for them when the West "snatched" Ukraine from Russia? It only makes it better for the West since they punched Russia, but people of Ukraine will still suffer regardless of who they depend on. [QUOTE=acer8;44689982]Well personally I think I would take my chances with the westerners if I was a Ukranian citizen then to have no choice with some russian pricks invading my country and shoving a gun in my face and saying do what I say or else.[/QUOTE] Who are you to decide for them tho? You do realize that quite a significant part of population is Russian, right? Before any mods make drama, I just want you to note that the rest of the people pulled 90's in this thread (just because I'm Serbian), not me.
[QUOTE=Paul McCartney;44689904]Still cynical about the 90s?[/QUOTE] He's right though
[QUOTE=Laserbeams;44693218]He's right though[/QUOTE] no one knows what each side really wants and blathering about it claiming each argument as delusional and uneducated opinions is pointless
[QUOTE=Gwoodman;44693243]no one knows what each side really wants and blathering about it claiming each argument as delusional and uneducated opinions is pointless[/QUOTE] Okay but I don't think Ukraine needs more debts right now, especially from the IMF, which is known for fucking everyone over
Say what you want about this plan, the alternative was allowing Russia to dictate how Ukraine runs its internal affairs and now we see how Russia reacted to Ukraine saying "no." do you think the U.S. or Poland or some Western nation would have invaded Western Ukraine if it had sided with Russia? This is by far the lesser of two evils, and inaction would spell absolute doom for Ukraine.
[QUOTE=Laserbeams;44693268]Okay but I don't think Ukraine needs more debts right now, especially from the IMF, which is known for fucking everyone over[/QUOTE] Well, the Ukraine is already in lots of debt with a junk credit rating - who else will give them money to keep normal services going without horrible amounts of cuts?
[QUOTE=Spirit_Breaker;44692981] The amount of uneducated, misinformed and biased people in this thread is baffling, but whatever I say you'll just go for "lol Serb" card. It's downright pathetic. It's pretty sad how uneducated you are about the whole Kosovo thing yet you write like you know everything about it. The only pro-Russia country left during the 90's was Serbia, which is why she was so demonized while the war crimes of the other countries were swept under the rug. This is not me denying Srebrenica (even tho there were goddamn UN forces just standing and watching it there for no reason??), I'm saying that there were mass rape and executions perpetrated by the other sides as well, but that kind of news never made it to the western media. I don't even know how many of you actually know that 300 000 Serbian civilians were forced out of the Croatia by the end of the war and majority of them can't get their homes back now. If you want to act so smart, at least read about Albanian Mafia (where current Kosovo officials were on the top of Interpool's most wanted list before they were removed), Yellow houses (where 150+ Serbians were taken and had their organs harvested without anesthesia while someone is actively trying to hide it (Del Ponte only came out with this information after she served her time and even then they forbade her to say anything more) as witnesses were killed 1 by 1), events during 80's and 97-98, as well as their attempt to claim independence during Yugoslav wars (where there were factually no crimes committed on Kosovo that people can claim for casus belli). If you decided to educate yourself a bit more on the matter then I'll gladly discuss it with you, but I really doubt you'll do that. There are 15+ million Serbians all over the world, but that doesn't stop FP bandwagon marking me as a "Putin worshiper, genocide denier" and what not.[/QUOTE] Since I am not Serbian, nor have I ever lived in, or even visited the Balkan region I can only work with the information that is presented to me on various news sites, as well as online encyclopedias and the sort. Unfortunately, the information more often than not presents Serbia as the instigator and overall 'evil' in the Yugoslavian wars, and Arkans Tigers do not help that image at all. This is obviously not a black and white issue, but I have a hard time believing that your country is as innocent as you seem to make it appear. I don't have a problem with your country or it's people, and you have presented good points, but the fact of the matter is that you have a staggering amount of sympathy for Russia despite their aggressive actions and overall lack of care for global peace and cooperation, and you are playing right into their hands by doing so.
[QUOTE=Spirit_Breaker;44692981] Who are you to decide for them tho? You do realize that quite a significant part of population is Russian, right?[/QUOTE] Oh so because a lot of the population is russian it would make it okay for the russians to take over Ukraine? That's so fucking stupid beyond comprehension I'm just completely flabbergasted by that statement. So by that logic in 2000 out of the 300 million americans 47 million were hispanic so apparently they totally have a right to try to take over the united states or at least the states with high population density of people that are of hispanic decent. Yeah, uh huh....
[QUOTE=Wafflemonstr;44697450] I don't have a problem with your country or it's people, and you have presented good points, but the fact of the matter is that you have a staggering amount of sympathy for Russia despite their aggressive actions and overall lack of care for global peace and cooperation, and you are playing right into their hands by doing so.[/QUOTE] Nothing unusual there, Serbians and Bulgarians are very friendly to Russia. They're like total opposites of Romania and Poland for example.
[QUOTE=Wafflemonstr;44697450]Since I am not Serbian, nor have I ever lived in, or even visited the Balkan region I can only work with the information that is presented to me on various news sites, as well as online encyclopedias and the sort. Unfortunately, the information more often than not presents Serbia as the instigator and overall 'evil' in the Yugoslavian wars, and Arkans Tigers do not help that image at all. This is obviously not a black and white issue, but I have a hard time believing that your country is as innocent as you seem to make it appear. I don't have a problem with your country or it's people, and you have presented good points, but the fact of the matter is that you have a staggering amount of sympathy for Russia despite their aggressive actions and overall lack of care for global peace and cooperation, and you are playing right into their hands by doing so.[/QUOTE] spirit_breaker is known for being very nationalistic towards his country... trying to justify most of whats happened around/because of it and trying to rationalize with it
[quote="Wafflemonstr"] Since I am not Serbian, nor have I ever lived in, or even visited the Balkan region I can only work with the information that is presented to me on various news sites, as well as online encyclopedias and the sort. Unfortunately, the information more often than not presents Serbia as the instigator and overall 'evil' in the Yugoslavian wars, and Arkans Tigers do not help that image at all. This is obviously not a black and white issue, but I have a hard time believing that your country is as innocent as you seem to make it appear. I don't have a problem with your country or it's people, and you have presented good points, but the fact of the matter is that you have a staggering amount of sympathy for Russia despite their aggressive actions and overall lack of care for global peace and cooperation, and you are playing right into their hands by doing so.[/quote] Except Arkan's Tigers were paramilitary forces (not officially supported by the goverment) and were known for terrorizing and pillaging from Serbian population as well. Arkan was known criminal before the Yugoslav wars even began. There's a documented video of Tigers running over civilian population with tanks while they were retreating. If you look at the war crimes section on Wikipedia or anywhere, you will see that pretty much everyone who commited war crimes on Serbian side was judged and sentenced while perpetrators of Croatian war crimes usually walked away free without any persecution. The whole war in Bosnia could've been prevented but this happened: [quote]Carrington–Cutileiro plan The Carrington–Cutileiro peace plan, named for its authors Lord Carrington and Portuguese ambassador José Cutileiro, resulted from the EC Peace Conference held in February 1992 in an attempt to prevent Bosnia-Herzegovina sliding into war. It proposed ethnic power-sharing on all administrative levels and the devolution of central government to local ethnic communities. However, all Bosnia-Herzegovina's districts would be classified as Muslim, Serb or Croat under the plan, even where no ethnic majority was evident. On 11 March 1992, the "Assembly of the Republic of Serb Bosnia-Herzegovina" unanimously rejected the plan, putting forth their own map which claimed almost 2/3 of Bosnia's territory, with a series of ethnically split cities and isolated enclaves, and leaving the Croats and Muslims with a disjointed strip of land in the centre of the republic. This plan was rejected by Culiteiro, but put forth a new draft which stated that the three constituent units would be "based on national principles and taking into account economic, geographic, and other criteria." On 18 March 1992, all three sides signed the agreement; Alija Izetbegović for the Bosniaks, Radovan Karadžić for the Serbs and Mate Boban for the Croats. On 28 March 1992, however, Izetbegović withdrew his signature and declared his opposition to any type of division of Bosnia, after meeting with then US ambassador to Yugoslavia, Warren Zimmermann, in Sarajevo. What was said and by whom remains unclear. Zimmerman denies that he told Izetbegovic that if he withdrew his signature, the United States would grant recognition to Bosnia as an independent state. What is indisputable is that Izetbegovic, that same day, withdrew his signature and renounced the agreement..[/quote] You can read more about this subject here if you want: [url]http://fpif.org/serb_demonization_as_propaganda_coup/[/url] I'm honestly neutral about the whole thing, my stance is that no side is better. US really isn't any better than Russia, it just hides it's stuff better and controls it's population in the same style you people claim Russia does. How many of you know about Operation Prism and all of the NSA stuff yet you don't lift a finger to do anything about it? Do you seriously think US cares about world peace and cooperation more than Russia does? If so, why does it have such huge military budget and why is it involved in p much every controversial thing in the world? You do know that CIA did a lot of stuff and still does right? As soon as you realize that every country's most important thing is their own interest you'll start moving forward. Just by thinking that your government is doing purely justified thing you're playing right into their hands. [QUOTE=acer8;44698397]Oh so because a lot of the population is russian it would make it okay for the russians to take over Ukraine? That's so fucking stupid beyond comprehension I'm just completely flabbergasted by that statement. So by that logic in 2000 out of the 300 million americans 47 million were hispanic so apparently they totally have a right to try to take over the united states or at least the states with high population density of people that are of hispanic decent. Yeah, uh huh....[/QUOTE] What is Kosovo then? The only thing that matters is opinion of world's powers, nothing else matters. I assure you that if US was super weak state that you'd probably witness that happening. It's also interesting because western part of Macedonia has huge Albanian population, yet only Kosovo thing matters. [QUOTE=ionuttzu;44698521]Nothing unusual there, Serbians and Bulgarians are very friendly to Russia. They're like total opposites of Romania and Poland for example.[/QUOTE] Maybe if you look at the football hooligan groups sure, but I don't really see a lot of people apart from those conservative and radical groups being for Russia. I'm neutral about them, not way too excited about them but I still don't hate them. [QUOTE=SonicHitman;44700080]spirit_breaker is known for being very nationalistic towards his country... trying to justify most of whats happened around/because of it and trying to rationalize with it[/QUOTE] Yes, I'm typing this with AK-47 in one hand while the radio next to Milosevic's framed picture is playing remove kebab song. I'm not justifying anything, what's done is done, I'm trying to create a picture in your hand that nothing is purely one sided. No matter that proof I show you you will just think it's justification and will be fixated on your opinion, so in a sense we can say that propaganda and media influence does work. Anyway, this is getting really off topic so I'll stop posting here, I may participate if you create a thread in Mass Debate section.
Weren't Serbian nationalists shipping themselves to Crimea to help Russia a while ago?
More of our money sent abroad, hoo rah. Wonder who's next.
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