• What is the cause of the problem with the American education system?
    89 replies, posted
I witnessed a massive debate on my Facebook a few days ago about the source of issues with American education. Everyone knows there is one and of course, ever one disagrees on how to fix it. But a lot of the dispute I read was on [B][I]why[/I][/B] there is an issue. A couple friends pegged all blame on parents, saying that bad parenting makes bad kids that do terribly in school. One went as far to say that "women decided to work instead of being a mother", that with two parents set on careers, kids have are left to their own devices to screw up in school. Others took the obvious government stance, saying that because of standardized tests, government interference and centralization, etc. etc. was the cause, and a few put it on massive amounts of shitty teachers and teaching unions. What is your opinion on the causes of the failing American education system?
In my opinion it is because in America, education is not an option it is rather something forced upon kids.
It's a culmination and mixture of both the parents and the gov't that has been evolving for a very long time.
Americans [highlight](User was banned for this post ("This is NOT debating - 2nd Offense." - Megafan))[/highlight]
Most students don't want to go to school because they're forced to learn things that they don't care about. I think that's the reason why. What I mean is like, some people just don't want to go to school, while others want to go to school but want to learn something they care about. For example, one of my friends wants to learn architecture stuff, but my school doesn't offer any classes on that, and we're forced to take a bunch of unnecessary classes like History in order to graduate. (I hope I didn't completely miss the debate topic)
[QUOTE=Nevermind.;35299866]In my opinion it is because in America, education is not an option it is rather something forced upon kids.[/QUOTE]Why would the compulsory status of an education system be the cause of its flaws anywhere? I do not know of a single country where education is NOT compulsory, in fact, [url=http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/]it is internationally regarded as a human right[/url] (article 26).
[QUOTE=Banhfunbags;35299985]Most students don't want to go to school because they're forced to learn things that they don't care about. I think that's the reason why. What I mean is like, some people just don't want to go to school, while others want to go to school but want to learn something they care about. For example, one of my friends wants to learn architecture stuff, but my school doesn't offer any classes on that, and we're forced to take a bunch of unnecessary classes like History in order to graduate. (I hope I didn't completely miss the debate topic)[/QUOTE] Well the purpose of learning specific areas and fields is more for college. The first 12 years of mandated schooling is [I]suppose[/I] to teach you basic life necessities to make you an efficient citizen once you graduate. You're suppose to have a basic grasp of history, science, math and English in order to be a functioning person in society. Learning specific fields like architecture or deeper aspects of a field like science or history is for college and upper level education. Your friend can go learn about architecture in college, but right now he should try to gain at least a basic grasp of necessary things like history.
I think it might be because the elementary standardized tests aren't written very well. From what I can remember of taking them years and years ago (which might very well be inaccurate right now) but the science sections didn't even require me to know ANYTHING about science. I just read a section, answered some questions about the passage, and moved on. It was like the reading portion all over again. I mean, if it's not on the standardized tests, then the teachers won't teach about it. I don't think I actually learned anything really basic in Science (human nervous system, atoms, dinosaurs, etc.) until I reached Middle School. The Standardized Tests need to be re-written. Badly.
[QUOTE=Penultimate;35303793]I think it might be because the elementary standardized tests aren't written very well. From what I can remember of taking them years and years ago (which might very well be inaccurate right now) but the science sections didn't even require me to know ANYTHING about science. I just read a section, answered some questions about the passage, and moved on. It was like the reading portion all over again. I mean, if it's not on the standardized tests, then the teachers won't teach about it. I don't think I actually learned anything really basic in Science (human nervous system, atoms, dinosaurs, etc.) until I reached Middle School. The Standardized Tests need to be re-written. Badly.[/QUOTE] Not to mention 90% of those tests are multiple choice that gives no challenge at all, even if you don't know the material.
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;35303817]Not to mention 90% of those tests are multiple choice that gives no challenge at all, even if you don't know the material.[/QUOTE] Exactly. I think the phrase is, "memorization, not true learning," or something like that. If they're going to put so much effort into them, and have teachers and students spending so much time taking them, then they should be GOOD. I think the AP tests are pretty damn good, personally. Maybe they should make stuff like the CSAP more like IB or AP tests.
[QUOTE=Ond kaja;35302846]Why would the compulsory status of an education system be the cause of its flaws anywhere? I do not know of a single country where education is NOT compulsory, in fact, [url=http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/]it is internationally regarded as a human right[/url] (article 26).[/QUOTE] That's just it. It's a right. It shouldn't be forced upon someone. If someone wants to be in journalism, why should they /have/ to take physics and chem?
All questions like this should be phrased "what are causes of the problem". Speaking for my own British education system (most of which applies to the American system, I should imagine), it's basically everything; unmotivated teachers, the "rights" of the students, a ludicrously dumbed down curriculum, rote memorisation rather than intrinsic understanding, learning to pass a test, uninteresting subject matter, the list goes on. But if I were forced to choose, it'd be a toss-up between testing and the teachers. I failed maths at A-level (got an E and a U for the modules), but at Uni I got a First in both the coursework and exams. I didn't study harder at Uni, but the lecturer was incredibly passionate about his subject, was very down to earth and understanding, and seemed to remember what it's like to see this stuff for the first time. Second problem is the testing. I can't even see the point of it, it's just a measure of your ability to regurgitate rote learning. It doesn't explore your ability to come up with novel solutions, or look at problems from new angles. I'm of the opinion testing should be scrapped entirely, and have the whole lot replaced with coursework. Then have it assessed by "customers". That's essentially what the working world is like, why not actually give kids a sense of what it's like before they dive headlong into it? Actually, I'm going to go for a third point, the subject matter. In English, we studied Shakespeare, Dickens and reams of poetry, and then had to write essays on the damned things. Five years down the road, none of my mates can spell worth a damn, and I even notice glaring spelling and grammatical errors in published works like newspapers (and a large number of the books in Skyrim). We'd have been a lot better off reading Pratchet and Asimov, and then crafting our own novels. Same problem in mathematics. You're given the equation and a hundred questions to solve. No idea how to get the equation itself. Instead you're bored out of your mind, so you don't learn anything, and worse, you come to the conclusion the subject is crap, and want nothing to do with it. [editline]26th March 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=neutra;35304131]That's just it. It's a right. It shouldn't be forced upon someone. If someone wants to be in journalism, why should they /have/ to take physics and chem?[/QUOTE] A broad experience of subject matter is a good thing for the mind. A scientific mind is significantly different to an artistic mind, and both will take different approaches to problem solving. Having both rolled into one can be very handy. People should be forced to learn a broad variety of subjects early on in their education just to give them the experience BUT it needs to well communicated. However, once they've decided on a path they shouldn't be subjected to other subjects just for the sake of it, like the major/minor system. That amounts to nothing more than a waste of time in all honesty.
I believe the problem is too much focus on testing, not enough focus on hands on learning and critical thinking. Kids aren't being taught how to think for themselves, they're taught how to be drones who sit at a desk with their minds wandering, and cram in some study at the last minute to pass a test and move on through the system.
It would be better if we had schools better fitted for students interest, it would prepare them more for their future. Through currently the school board at the high school that i go to is about to change the entire education system starting in August, so basically everything i learned from my freshman and sophomore years is being thrown out the window.
Force of education to all, and no children left behind provides shit education to all.
[QUOTE=QwertySecond;35304204]All questions like this should be phrased "what are causes of the problem". Speaking for my own British education system (most of which applies to the American system, I should imagine), it's basically everything; unmotivated teachers, the "rights" of the students, a ludicrously dumbed down curriculum, rote memorisation rather than intrinsic understanding, learning to pass a test, uninteresting subject matter, the list goes on.[/quote] I wasn't aware the UK was having similiar problems as the US, actually. I was always given the impression that America's education issues were soley American and other first world nations were advancing much better. Also, I think "uninteresting subject matter" is a bit subjective. [QUOTE=QwertySecond;35304204]But if I were forced to choose, it'd be a toss-up between testing and the teachers. I failed maths at A-level (got an E and a U for the modules), but at Uni I got a First in both the coursework and exams. I didn't study harder at Uni, but the lecturer was incredibly passionate about his subject, was very down to earth and understanding, and seemed to remember what it's like to see this stuff for the first time.[/quote] Same here, I'm doing much better in college than I did in high school. But the biggest issues with teachers is that most bad ones are protected with tenures and unions. It's virtually impossible to get rid of a teacher after a while and when you have no fear of losing your job, what's the incentive to do it at your best? I know this doesn't hold true for [I]all[/I] teachers but it's a big problem. [QUOTE=QwertySecond;35304204]Second problem is the testing. I can't even see the point of it, it's just a measure of your ability to regurgitate rote learning. It doesn't explore your ability to come up with novel solutions, or look at problems from new angles. I'm of the opinion testing should be scrapped entirely, and have the whole lot replaced with coursework. Then have it assessed by "customers". That's essentially what the working world is like, why not actually give kids a sense of what it's like before they dive headlong into it?[/quote] I don't think it's the concept of testing as a whole that is a problem but how it's done. Memorization doesn't prove learning; what should be done is to show that the student has an understanding of concept. In the US at least, they need to chuck out multiple choice for everything. Half the time it's done out of simple laziness and convience as shown with the use of scantrons. Teachers don't even bother looking at what the students marked down - just put it through the scanner and it shits out a grade. Tests need to be more essay formatted and be more based around a student's critical analysis of the material, not a summary of it. [QUOTE=QwertySecond;35304204]Actually, I'm going to go for a third point, the subject matter. In English, we studied Shakespeare, Dickens and reams of poetry, and then had to write essays on the damned things. Five years down the road, none of my mates can spell worth a damn, and I even notice glaring spelling and grammatical errors in published works like newspapers (and a large number of the books in Skyrim). We'd have been a lot better off reading Pratchet and Asimov, and then crafting our own novels. Same problem in mathematics. You're given the equation and a hundred questions to solve. No idea how to get the equation itself. Instead you're bored out of your mind, so you don't learn anything, and worse, you come to the conclusion the subject is crap, and want nothing to do with it.[/QUOTE] Essays on novels and poems are suppose to show an understanding of the meaning and concepts expressed in them. Unless your essays were mere summaries instead? [QUOTE=QwertySecond;35304204][editline]26th March 2012[/editline] A broad experience of subject matter is a good thing for the mind. A scientific mind is significantly different to an artistic mind, and both will take different approaches to problem solving. Having both rolled into one can be very handy. People should be forced to learn a broad variety of subjects early on in their education just to give them the experience BUT it needs to well communicated. However, once they've decided on a path they shouldn't be subjected to other subjects just for the sake of it, like the major/minor system. That amounts to nothing more than a waste of time in all honesty.[/QUOTE] Agreed, agreed, agreed. I do not do well with math and I find it boring half the time, but I respect its great importance and know that I really should have at least a basic understanding of it, even though I am a history major which needs none of that at all beyond simple personal finance in life. [editline]26th March 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=newbz;35305556]Force of education to all, and no children left behind provides shit education to all.[/QUOTE] I don't understand why everyone is saying "forced education" is bad. Education is never a bad thing and it is always better to know a thing than not. How far can a world go where kids, preteens and teens, are given a choice at any time to go to school or not? No, making a kid merely attend class will not give him the incentive to improve himself, but it will get [I]some[/I] kind of education through to him. [editline]26th March 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Frostnorn;35305493]It would be better if we had schools better fitted for students interest, it would prepare them more for their future. Through currently the school board at the high school that i go to is about to change the entire education system starting in August, so basically everything i learned from my freshman and sophomore years is being thrown out the window.[/QUOTE] That's what college is for. Want to follow your interests? Go to college or tradeschool. [B]Public schooling is to educate kids into being productive citizens of society and give them the basics of how to live in the world.[/B]
[QUOTE=Nevermind.;35299866]In my opinion it is because in America, education is not an option it is rather something forced upon kids.[/QUOTE] The problem is the school availability for EVERYONE. I'll talk you about the Belgian educational system. Here, we don't need to pay for any schools. They are all free for everyone. Our state provides funds because it's important to make the information and formations free for everyone! It is possible to have terribly students here too... It's just a "respect" problem. They just go to schools because they are forced by the law. Yes, here in Belgium, under 18 years old, every Belgians have to go to school. We have a course named "Morale" (or "Religion" in Christians school as mine), and there we are learning about ethic rules, social standards, etc... Because it's important to know we have to love your next as yourself. Students here aren't complaining anymore. We learn well and we are happy of our schools. Do US schools do like that?
I think its mainly because kids just aren't interested in most subjects because they typically don't provide real-world problems or have you working hands-on with something. When my math teacher hands me a worksheet or something there's maybe a 25% chance I'll actually do it, and even less of a chance that I'll actually learn any of it even if I did do it. But when I get into my programming mood, I can spend hours simply studying equations and various other subjects that I'm not normally interested in, simply because I can relate them to something I love to do. And don't even get me started on english. Our teacher spends most of her time telling us how writing is a great form of expressing yourself and then goes and gives us books on the billion rules you have to follow to properly "express yourself".
A big problem is money. As far as I know families that live in a certain school district pay certain taxes that go to the schools in their district. For example. I was lucky enough to go to the best school in California's central valley (I think that is what you'd call this place, still not sure though since I just moved) It is in this city called Fairfield but this city is REALLY TERRIBLE. It is extremely poor and has a ton of crime. Not one day goes by without hearing about a murder or something bad happening. I go to this school thankfully even though I live outside of the district (Because the military lets me because my dad is serving) So you'd think this school located in this terrible city would do bad... actually it is the best one in miles. It's because a lot of people come from Vacaville, the nicer of the towns next to Fairfield and there is a really nice community right next to the school. So this is where they get all their money from, taxes from these high middle class and rich parents. As opposed to my brother, who has autism who has to go across town because my school doesn't offer a program for him. His school is terribly overcrowded, dangerous, in a bad part of town, and its falling apart from the outside and the inside. Since they are located in a bad area, they get less tax money since people make less. Or at least that's how it works in my state/county. My Government teacher told us about this when we went over malapportionment and how it was kind of related. Heck, my brother that I was just talking about, his school district was going to cut kindergarten to help with the budget. After a ton of backlash they decided to just close down a few schools and make other big budget cuts to education overall and lay off a ton of teachers.
I believe public schools have become places where teachers can have good jobs as opposed to places where students are supposed to learn. Almost all of the decisions put into effect are to help the teachers, not the students.
I want to say parents deserve a good portion of the blame, more then the schools anyway. It seems to be what I have found is if the parents don't help the kids be motivated for education at a young age then the children tend to not care about school work later in live. Not to say the parents are actually bad, just unequipped with getting children motivated for the future and helping them understand the value of even a basic education.
A very good video about this is Changing Education Paradigms. [video=youtube;zDZFcDGpL4U]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDZFcDGpL4U[/video] He mainly points out that the previous belief that doing well in school meaning you'll have a well job. We're using an outdated system that instead of helping a child learn and able to branch out and set his/her own pace we end up alienating most who wish to do that for the "norm" of society and instead have the fixed route of cultivating the school as a factory with students as the product.
I personally think one of the problems is that kids memorize facts, instead of actually learning. I think that schools should focus more on teaching us to think rationally, use logic, and of course actually like to learn. If schools could get kids to like learning when they are young (elementary school) then it will stick with them through High School.
It's built the indoctrinate students into a broken economic system
[QUOTE=Banhfunbags;35299985]Most students don't want to go to school because they're forced to learn things that they don't care about. I think that's the reason why. What I mean is like, some people just don't want to go to school, while others want to go to school but want to learn something they care about. For example, one of my friends wants to learn architecture stuff, but my school doesn't offer any classes on that, and we're forced to take a bunch of unnecessary classes like History in order to graduate. (I hope I didn't completely miss the debate topic)[/QUOTE] We have history so we won't make mistakes we did in the past. Such as the Articles of Confederation for America. It's not useless, people just use it incorrectly. History I mean.
I think it's partly due to standardized tests, lack of motivation, and the idea that kids must get an A. The purpose of the standardized tests is to give funding to schools based on how well the kids do. The problem with this is that kids eventually have to do perfect on the tests for the school to continue to receive the same amount of funding. The other problem, lack of motivation, is that school earns the student nothing in the short-term, which is the extent of most kids plans. In addition, the idea that one must get A's further stresses those that are unable to meet this goal, because they aren't above average (which seems to be wrong to say since No Child Left Behind took effect).
[QUOTE=prooboo;35373657]It's built the indoctrinate students into a broken economic system[/QUOTE] Elaborate on that. This is a debate, and while you haven't necessarily just stated your position in an argument, you have yet to make one of your own. So, do that.
I thinks its the problem is the focus on grades in general. At my school, they push us to get good grades to go to college. The teacher have to run through all the content, so they don't help us understand it, and then these kids with great potential get shit grades because the school hasn't taught us to learn properly
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;35303817]Not to mention 90% of those tests are multiple choice that gives no challenge at all, even if you don't know the material.[/QUOTE] Don't say that. I just did "the Universitytest" here in sweden to see what my general University studying capability is and all of the questions are of the "Choose between 4 answers"-type. They are however written by people at uni so they are high quality I guess. Just saying this thing is renowned here in sweden for it's difficulty.
Teachers in US high schools teach you how to pass an exam, not how to utilize the material. Language classes fit this stereotype perfectly, for example.
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