• How Valve Treats CS:GO
    81 replies, posted
[video=youtube;L1QE6ogmSkw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1QE6ogmSkw[/video] Just as a side note you can tell pretty clearly how much CS has been trending downward just by looking at the CS thread here, it's nowhere nears as active as it used to be.
Should be titled "How Valve treats everything but Dota"
Honestly, as scummy as this all is, I personally believe that the counter-strike community can share a great deal of the blame. CS:GO was crashing and burning before they released skins, and suddenly after the skin economy happened the game boomed the likes of which noone has ever seen, this kind of patronage taught valve a lesson that they're still following to this day. It doesn't matter how many overly dramatic videos people post, or how many pros complain, the game is making huge bank because they found the one way to exploit the communities of the games like this: Simply put, give them a way to stroke their ego. Communities for games like this (especially the CS community) are filled to the absolute brim with elitists that have something to prove, I've personally dealt with communities like this and I'm not saying this is necessarily a bad thing, but the one thing Valve found out is that you can squeeze money out of these elitists by monetizing the act of stroking their ego and showing off. A lot of the skins in CSGO look absolutely stupid, and would logically give one a tactical disadvantage, but it all comes down to 'hey I have a 200 dollar skin with some NIP stickers on it haha im so rich and e-famous im going pro one day'. This inspires others to 'follow the leader', they end up associating those shitty $300 knife skins with pro success and end up playing the gambling game to get it, feeding into the whole messy system that's evolved from this shit. Suddenly the game goes from just a standard competitive game to a gambling machine, maybe if I open this next box I can get a $300 skin to sell/show off? Go take a look at overwatch to see how feral people can get over something as absolutely inconsequential as skins, where there was a huge stink raised (even in our own megathread) about how they didn't let you buy a small subset of themed skins with the in-game currency, and required instead that you rely on RNG to get it. Valve took that system, fabricated real world value for those items, and placed them on a market that lets players turn it in for games and eventually real cash. If people want this to stop; stop buying skins, stop using the steam market, and stop buying keys, but we all know that'll never happen because golly that next box could contain a karambit!! [QUOTE=Antimuffin;50979225] What's that Match-fixing tho?[/QUOTE] Another problem whose source can be traced to their skin economy, essentially teams bet expensive skins against themselves and then throw the match to make huge earnings.
Gabe isn't game director of CSGO though, so people should stop making such complaints about him. What's that Match-fixing tho?
[QUOTE=ntzu;50979144]big rant about skins[/QUOTE] that's cool and all but how does any of that affect the abysmal changes valve has made to the game in the past? Changes that seem that they are so out of touch with the game that they might as well just not bother and when they finally fix something they drag their heels or add more unnecessary shit instead of fixing or changing core issues Valve train isn't very good in its current state "Okay, we'll remake it and then leave it completely fucked for 6+ months and still leave it with issues" Valve Nuke is unbalanced "Okay, we'll remake it and completely destroy any gameplay or competitive elements it had originally" Valve pistols in their current state aren't balanced "Okay, we'll add a fucking revolver out of literally nowhere and leave it fucked for a while, then break it till its useless and never touch it again" They also never fucking communicate anything or get any genuine feedback or playtesting before they just throw the update out the gate [editline]31st August 2016[/editline] Or my favourite "Valve, some of the sound effects are overly sharp, here's a detailed analysis on why and how we could fix it" "nah, we're just gonna remake all the sound effects :)"
Seeing how well Dota 2 is treated (I think Icefrog is the Game Director) perhaps the development of CSGO is so fucked because the Game Director for it sucks. [QUOTE=ntzu;50979144] Another problem whose source can be traced to their skin economy, essentially teams bet expensive skins against themselves and then throw the match to make huge earnings.[/QUOTE] Then it's good that they got banned for it. Idk why they those players complained about it, they are self-responsible for it.
[QUOTE=HAKKAR!!!;50979242]that's cool and all but how does any of that affect the abysmal changes valve has made to the game in the past? Changes that seem that they are so out of touch with the game that they might as well just not bother and when they finally fix something they drag their heels or add more unnecessary shit instead of fixing or changing core issues Valve train isn't very good in its current state "Okay, we'll remake it and then leave it completely fucked for 6+ months and still leave it with issues" Valve Nuke is unbalanced "Okay, we'll remake it and completely destroy any gameplay or competitive elements it had originally" Valve pistols in their current state aren't balanced "Okay, we'll add a fucking revolver out of literally nowhere and leave it fucked for a while, then break it till its useless and never touch it again" They also never fucking communicate anything or get any genuine feedback or playtesting before they just throw the update out the gate [editline]31st August 2016[/editline] Or my favourite "Valve, some of the sound effects are overly sharp, here's a detailed analysis on why and how we could fix it" "nah, we're just gonna remake all the sound effects :)"[/QUOTE] It's about economizing their time, why would they focus on really listening to their community and improving the game when instead they can throw out half-measures that the community at large will blindly thank them for, then release a new skin box for good measure? The entire point of my post was to say that the community of CS (that is, the majority) is whats contributing to its downfall, while those who are really intimate with the game understand it's problems, your average gold competitive player will still be chasing the asiimov on a stick and will otherwise not care if nuke is unbalanced. [QUOTE=Antimuffin;50979259] Then it's good that they got banned for it. Idk why they those players complained about it, they are self-responsible for it.[/QUOTE] A lot of the time its a decision made by scummy team managers rather a team-wide decision. If you really want to take a look at just how amazingly corrupt the skin economy has made CS, go take a look at just how many scandals have happened between teams, team managers, and the people that own them. Of course I could be wrong, I had a friend give me all sorts of juicy details for years when he was part of the e-sports scene (in the back-end, was everything from a caster to a team manager) for CSGO, so it could be more isolated to the circles that he was in.
I've kinda accepted that Valve aren't the same as they used to be. And that's not including the whole half life 3 thing. You can say they're working on games and are just building things up or whatever, but the decisions they've made in that time relating to their games and fans have told me enough.
the dude in the middle of this video almost to tears complaining about how "gabe sucks penis at making games" because he got killed by a pistol pretty much sums up why i dislike this video in general. this video has three major points: valve has broken the game via updates, valve does not listen when adding new content, and valve cares only about money. while all of these can have their valid points, he overall pulls down the validity of his claims by using examples of people talking about this stuff in some of the, for lack of a better term, most crybaby examples possible. for instance, in the beginning of the video, he's talking about the revolver, but that literally got patched like the next day and is now super underpowered (in my experience.) people yelling at "gaben" are literally the worst because it shows how barebones their understanding of valve as a company is, and shows that their only true knowledge comes from memes. people who get very very angry about this game are unhinged, they are just throwing every little raw emotion at this game and their points become basically moot, and i don't think anyone at valve wants to listen to a bunch of screaming streamers who act like entitled 12-year olds, even if they have good points. and even then, you can tell this guy was just digging for bad examples at this point. like "oh no, they took away the ability to have a server plugin that gives you fake items, valve is cancer." which i might add valve properly defended as it could be a slippery slope to tricking people into bad trades and people losing their items. the worst possible thing i've seen from them was the sound updates and the fact that valve ignores certain update requests (and has bad communication in general.) the whole smg thing for instance is fine i think. you need guns for every kind of person, so everyone can play instead of just the dudes who learned how to aim correctly. a low damage, high accuracy while running weapon is perfectly balanced when you have a high accuracy, high damage weapon that's meant for longer ranges. it's no different than an auto shotgun. every single one of these updates have a lot of thought put into them, and open up the game to a wider audience. valve hasn't punished anyone, they've just opened the floodgates so more people can play. overwatch did a similar thing with soldier 76, a character with a literal aimhack who was meant to be an option for those who like modern shooters but want to get into a higher level games. this is just one example of a thousand points that can be recounted. my only complaint with valve is that they don't communicate, but they are definitely listening, regardless of how many patches it takes for certain people to fling shit. and the issue with communication for valve is that, for a company with little to no PR, communication always opens the floodgates to thousands of requests, so valve has basically only communicated with people on a rare case by case basis vs the whole community so they don't get flooded with thousands of requests and in the fire lose all the important ones. playtesting with a community of millions of people is fucking difficult, and there will always be angry people. anyways, enough of my tangent. i don't want this video to become the next talking point every time someone mentions cs:go in here, because its totally invalidated by the incredible shortsightedness of it. it barrages you with example after example of angry people without giving you time to think if they're actually valid with being angry, especially considering they're literally one in a million of players. valve has shortcomings, no shit, but this is not the way to display them. a more intelligent and calmly produced video might be better instead of using that fake gabe newell video that one group of people make eons ago glossed over a project he probably doesn't even have that much involvement with. please.
Is that really how the guns sound as of today? I haven't played in a couple months since the revolver got added.
[QUOTE=Gamerman12;50979284]*things* please.[/QUOTE] The end result of trying to mimic Crowbcat pretty much.
[QUOTE=Antimuffin;50979225]Gabe isn't game director of CSGO though, so people should stop making such complaints about him.[/QUOTE] Pretty sure it's mostly just a joke nowadays. Just like how people blame Gabe for their bad case openings.
[QUOTE=Gamerman12;50979284]rant[/QUOTE] Dude, almost all the players complaining/getting angry are either playing it up for their stream or are literally professional players that are emotional because a game that is >LITERALLY< their job and passion is crumbling and falling apart because of valve's incompetence again and again. I'm also confused as to why you're criticizing them for insulting the tec 9 balancing when and saying "Oh nah it's perfectly balanced" when you have 140 hours at the game and these people have thousands (sometimes upwards of 4k hours) and play at levels that net them hundreds of thousands of dollars. And the fact you think these people are actually 100% seriously critisizing Gabe for his cs:go balancing shows how little you know of this situation at all. It's a super common joke to associate valve = gabe. And part of that is because of how shitty their PR is, it's impossible to put a face or a name to the company when the only human being that actually seems to even exist at Valve offices is Gabe Newell because they never bother actually doing PR or having legitimate human beings listen. There's no equivalent to Icefrog in CS:GO, as in - an actual human being at the other end listening.
i should add valve and csgo are both open to criticism, and i want to see proper videos that discuss this sort of thing maturely. 3kliksphilips videos are a prime example on how to show flaws in csgo, use those kinds of videos as a template for greater videos. and don't get so emotional about it, that won't get your point across any better.
[quote=Gamerman12]and i don't think anyone at valve wants to listen to a bunch of screaming streamers who act like entitled 12-year olds, even if they have good points.[/quote] That's the major problem too, is that nobody at valve on the CS:GO team seems to want to listen PERIOD. You have some of the best players in the world with massive orgs not even able to get a hold of Valve, no shit that's frustrating for peoples whose livelyhood relies on them actually listening. There's a guy near the middle of the video who jumps up on a box, shoots, and then all his shots fail to register with the server who says "Fuck this game' - He is (was?) one of the best and most well known players in the world
CSGO community in a nutshell: [QUOTE]We want new stuff[/QUOTE] When something new gets added: [QUOTE]IT'S AWFUL OMG VALVE REMOVE IT NAO[/QUOTE] (Although the R8 update was dumb tbh).
[QUOTE={TFS} Rock Su;50979380]CSGO community in a nutshell: We want new stuff[/QUOTE] Really? Doesn't seem that way to me. I very rarely see anyone asking for new stuff beyond maybe some new maps. Most people just want what's there currently to actually work and be balanced.
Is everyone forgetting that the CS competitive scene was dying because the lack of money for events was not triggering enough people to play? They added skins to the game and now they have money to host big lan events for the "pros". I remember when I was playing ESEA in source and how everything was moving towards csgo, the game was dying in that stage, there was a increasing lack of players to fund even the smallest ESEA events. Skins made it possible for valve to put the money into the events that people wanted. Also as a side note I still really like playing csgo (although I'm not as good as I used to be haha)
[QUOTE=DrVivi;50979400]Is everyone forgetting that the CS competitive scene was dying because the lack of money for events was not triggering enough people to play? They added skins to the game and now they have money to host big lan events for the "pros". I remember when I was playing ESEA in source and how everything was moving towards csgo, the game was dying in that stage, there was a increasing lack of players to fund even the smallest ESEA events. Skins made it possible for valve to put the money into the events that people wanted. Also as a side note I still really like playing csgo (although I'm not as good as I used to be haha)[/QUOTE] At what cost though? It's a bit of a problem when there are times when you get a bigger payout from betting against yourself rather than actually winning the tournament.
[QUOTE=HAKKAR!!!;50979346]Dude, almost all the players complaining/getting angry are either playing it up for their stream or are literally professional players that are emotional because a game that is >LITERALLY< their job and passion is crumbling and falling apart because of valve's incompetence again and again. I'm also confused as to why you're criticizing them for insulting the tec 9 balancing when and saying "Oh nah it's perfectly balanced" when you have 140 hours at the game and these people have thousands (sometimes upwards of 4k hours) and play at levels that net them hundreds of thousands of dollars. And the fact you think these people are actually 100% seriously critisizing Gabe for his cs:go balancing shows how little you know of this situation at all. It's a super common joke to associate valve = gabe. And part of that is because of how shitty their PR is, it's impossible to put a face or a name to the company when the only human being that actually seems to even exist at Valve offices is Gabe Newell because they never bother actually doing PR or having legitimate human beings listen. There's no equivalent to Icefrog in CS:GO, as in - an actual human being at the other end listening.[/QUOTE] [I]i should mention i mis-typed with the tec 9, meant to refer to the mac-10 and the submachine guns that got buffed with it, apologies on that part.[/I] if you're going to be a professional in this game, you've gotta be professional about it. telling gabe to suck penis, regardless of being a joke or not, isn't going to get you or your opinions high up on valves to-do list. just saying. [QUOTE=HAKKAR!!!;50979371]That's the major problem too, is that nobody at valve on the CS:GO team seems to want to listen PERIOD. You have some of the best players in the world with massive orgs not even able to get a hold of Valve, no shit that's frustrating for peoples whose livelyhood relies on them actually listening. There's a guy near the middle of the video who jumps up on a box, shoots, and then all his shots fail to register with the server who says "Fuck this game' - He is (was?) one of the best and most well known players in the world[/QUOTE] i will agree with you that valve doesn't say anything, but from what i've experienced with valve in the past through different but similar channels, i can say valve is definitely listening, but they're slow to act on things because everything they do is under incredible scrutiny, so they want to try and make the right decisions. obviously, they don't all the time, so call them out on that, but realize that valve doesn't respond, they just do. but i will admit, that guy on the box was definitely a bad moment for the game, but it's not a bullet point, it's a case of bad connections if anything. i could go into more detail but i'm honestly exhausted at this point.
[QUOTE=ntzu;50979435]At what cost though? It's a bit of a problem when there are times when you get a bigger payout from betting against yourself rather than actually winning the tournament.[/QUOTE] Although people got permanently banned from all valve sponsored tournaments, I can agree with you that skins bring about unforeseen consequences. This game wouldn't be as alive today though if it weren't for skins, ESEA was the only thing keeping this game afloat and you should of seen how many people would rant and rave about that. It is no different today, people focus more on the negatives than the positives.
now imagine your a comp tf2 player :(
[QUOTE=Mr Flexi;50979397]Really? Doesn't seem that way to me. I very rarely see anyone asking for new stuff beyond maybe some new maps. Most people just want what's there currently to actually work and be balanced.[/QUOTE] Even the new maps are made by the community, hell, Mirage in CS:GO was based on the CS:S custom one. Valve does nothing to the game to improve it.
[QUOTE=HAKKAR!!!;50979242]that's cool and all but how does any of that affect the abysmal changes valve has made to the game in the past? Changes that seem that they are so out of touch with the game that they might as well just not bother and when they finally fix something they drag their heels or add more unnecessary shit instead of fixing or changing core issues Valve train isn't very good in its current state "Okay, we'll remake it and then leave it completely fucked for 6+ months and still leave it with issues" Valve Nuke is unbalanced "Okay, we'll remake it and completely destroy any gameplay or competitive elements it had originally" Valve pistols in their current state aren't balanced "Okay, we'll add a fucking revolver out of literally nowhere and leave it fucked for a while, then break it till its useless and never touch it again" They also never fucking communicate anything or get any genuine feedback or playtesting before they just throw the update out the gate [editline]31st August 2016[/editline] Or my favourite "Valve, some of the sound effects are overly sharp, here's a detailed analysis on why and how we could fix it" "nah, we're just gonna remake all the sound effects :)"[/QUOTE] I wasn't gonna talk about Valve and their work in terms of balancing, but... They're shit at it. The fact that they call it a day by removing ammo reserves doesn't sits right with me. People tell me its the way to go and that its fine, but it seems to do nothing but make a few weapons expensive paperweights beyond one or two kills, or literaly nothing at all to their balance. I have no idea how people in the ye olde days of 1.6 played with a minimap that didn't give even half of the info the GO one gives nowadays and with a silenced M4 with 90 bullets played without complaining. I don't even care about skins anymore, although the fact that people play the game for skins instead of the game itself is a load of sad shit.
Welcome to the club csgo community. tf2 has been getting the shaft for years.
[QUOTE=Gamerman12;50979499][I]i should mention i mis-typed with the tec 9, meant to refer to the mac-10 and the submachine guns that got buffed with it, apologies on that part.[/I] [/QUOTE] To be honest re-reading my post I came across as pretty aggro for no real reason. my bad man, valve just annoys me sometimes because like you said they do a lot of really cool, great stuff with I love. But then they turn around do a lot of really dumb things and it's honestly disappointing and a little frustrating the way they can act (or rather not act) occasionally. Especially when it comes to a series of games that my friends and I have been playing for the better half of 10+ years, it probably makes it easy to become bitter tbh, but it is awesome that we've all been able to love these games because of them.
[QUOTE=HAKKAR!!!;50979697]To be honest re-reading my post I came across as pretty aggro for no real reason. my bad man, valve just annoys me sometimes because like you said they do a lot of really cool, great stuff with I love. But then they turn around do a lot of really dumb things and it's honestly disappointing and a little frustrating the way they can act (or rather not act) occasionally. Especially when it comes to a series of games that my friends and I have been playing for the better half of 10+ years, it probably makes it easy to become bitter tbh, but it is awesome that we've all been able to love these games because of them.[/QUOTE] not a problem at all man. i can definitely see where the anger comes from, and it's very obvious valve has a communication issue, first and foremost. i'm just wondering if there's anything valve can do to solve it without hurting their ecosystem. it'd basically take one guy in the company to say "i'm gonna start talking more" but that'd be such a weight to carry. they'd basically become the new gaben, and all criticism, csgo or not, would be directed at that person vs. the whole of valve. i think the only person who'd really ever do that would be someone from the community working for valve as their armchair PR guy.
[QUOTE=Antimuffin;50979225]What's that Match-fixing tho?[/QUOTE] Kid named Solo threw a match for the Russian equivalent of $322. The rest of his team was not in on it and, in the grand scheme of the tournament they were in, the match didn't matter. Got banned for life from StarLadder but then had it reduced to 12 months. Meanwhile, in CS:GO, they had the [url=http://wiki.teamliquid.net/counterstrike/North_American_match_fixing_scandal]North American match fixing scandal[/url] and all of the involved players but one were given "indefinite bans" until Valve finally came out a year later and said "Yeah, they're permanent."
[QUOTE=DrVivi;50979400]Is everyone forgetting that the CS competitive scene was dying because the lack of money for events was not triggering enough people to play? They added skins to the game and now they have money to host big lan events for the "pros". I remember when I was playing ESEA in source and how everything was moving towards csgo, the game was dying in that stage, there was a increasing lack of players to fund even the smallest ESEA events. Skins made it possible for valve to put the money into the events that people wanted. Also as a side note I still really like playing csgo (although I'm not as good as I used to be haha)[/QUOTE] Maybe the scene should've remained dead if this is the kind of quality updates they're supporting it with. Literally a zombie kept alive by microtransactions.
God I get aroused when people complain "Game is so fucking broken/buggy!!" when they die. I have a friend who is notorious for it on Dota and I lose my shit every time. I especially love that you can easily watch the replays and pin point your mistakes.
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