Muslims and Westerners: The Psychological Differences - General

OK here are some quotes from an "article" I have just read today : [QUOTE]This way of starting with a short leash is actually very normal in our Western way of raising children. We start with strict expectations concerning school, doing homework, and behaving properly. Then, as children get older and more mature they will receive more freedom from their parents. When they are 21 years old they are expected to have learned enough to be able to handle life and are free to choose whatever education, partner, religion, life style that they want. In Muslim culture it is different - [I]especially[/I] for the boys. They have lots of freedom in their early lives and as they get older more and more cultural/religious restrictions and expectations appear to support the family structure. By the time they are 20 years old, their parents often have already chosen their future wives or husbands. Other choices are also less free: the expectation, for instance, to either achieve high status in education or to work in the little family run shop, to support the family's reputation by attending Friday prayers in the local Mosque. The "education pyramid" is standing upside down in the West; less freedom in the beginning, more self responsibility as one gets older. In Muslim culture the pyramid stands with its wide end down; [I]few[/I] expectations to follow civilized behavior as a boy, and less freedom as one grows more competent, to support one's own family and religion. [/QUOTE][QUOTE]Expressions of anger and threats are probably the quickest way to lose one's face in Western culture. In discussions, those who lose their temper have automatically lost, and I guess most people have observed the feeling of shame and loss of social status following expressions of aggression at one's work place or at home. In the Muslim culture, aggressive behavior, especially threats, are generally seen to be accepted, and even expected as a way of handling conflicts and social discrepancies. If a Muslim does not respond in a threatening way to insults or social irritation, he, [I]not[/I] "she" (Muslim women are, mostly, expected to be humble and to not show power) is seen as weak, as someone who cannot be depended upon and loses face. In the eyes of most Westerners it looks immature and childish when people try to use threatening behavior, to mark their dislikes. A Danish saying goes "…Only small dogs bark. Big dogs do not have to." That saying is deeply rooted in our cultural psychology as a guideline for civilized social behavior. To us, aggressive behavior is a clear sign of weakness. It is a sign of not being in control of oneself and lacking ability to handle a situation. We see peoples’ ability to remain calm as self confidence, allowing them to create a constructive dialogue. Their knowledge of facts, use of common sense and ability in producing valid arguments is seen as a sign of strength. The Islamic expression of "holy anger" is therefore completely contradictory to any Western understanding. Those two words in the same sentence sound contradictory to us. The terror-threatening and violent reaction of Muslims to the Danish Mohammed cartoons showing their prophet as a man willing to use violence to spread his message, is seen from our Western eyes as ironic. Muslims’ aggressive reaction to a picture showing their prophet as aggressive, completely confirms the truth of the statement made by Kurt Westergaard in his satiric drawing. [/QUOTE][QUOTE]If you had ever spent time in a Muslim community you experience this very clearly. You would find yourself constantly trying not to offend anyone and you’d treat everybody like a rotten egg. Jokes, irony and, especially, self-irony is as good as non-existent. It creates a superficial social environment where unhealthy hierarchies appear everywhere because nobody dares to, for instance, point out the weaknesses of childish men and make fun of the powerful. There is an old Danish fairytale about a little boy that points out the nakedness of the King; "He has no clothes on!!” embarrassing the proud King wearing his non-existent magic clothes, which are only visible to "good people" (actually, the King [I]was[/I] just naked - because the tailor had cheated him!). Such a story could never have been written in a Muslim culture.[/QUOTE][QUOTE]If integration just consists of learning the language and finding a job, it is not so difficult. But if integration also includes developing mental habits of equally respecting non-Muslims it is simply impossible for most Muslims. They see themselves as special, will always try to live together, create their own Muslim/Islamic parallel societies, feel separated and have less respect towards non-Muslims. True integration doesn’t have to, necessarily, imply religious conversion. However, for Muslims it certainly presupposes [I]cultural[/I] conversion. Clearly, very few Muslims have the will, social freedom and strength of personality to go through such a psychologically demanding process.[/QUOTE]"So, this is THE question. Will integration of Muslims happen, satisfactorily, to the extent necessary? If you think yes, then on what basis do you make the assumption? If no, then what will you expect the consequences to be?" [URL="http://www.newenglishreview.org/custpage.cfm/frm/63122/sec_id/63122"] To read the whole thing[/URL] (It's much longer than the quotes)

Interesting I read a lot of psychology and sometimes also cultural differences, this was a good read - thanks.

Never really though about this, well more reasons to be against them expanding their culture to western countries

What i´ve been saying all along.

I've known a couple of Muslim guys at school, they were pretty much westerners with a different religion, this article just looks like thinly veiled xenophobia to me. Be fucked if I care either way everyone can do as they please until it encroaches on another's right to do as they please. EDIT: Actually let me fix this. This article is Xenophobic. They completely neglect to mention that without the muslim world arithmetic would be no where near as advanced as it is, they advanced a lot of scientific fields a thousand years back between the 8th - 13th centuries. Fuck the Shiites even coined the saying "The ink of the scholar is more holy than the blood of martyrs" at that time. So this whole muslim hate thing should really fucking die.

[QUOTE=sporface;23467036]Never really though about this, well more reasons to be against them expanding their culture to western countries[/QUOTE] you're a racist idiot [editline]02:11PM[/editline] [QUOTE=Theater;23467071]What i´ve been saying all along.[/QUOTE] and you're a racist idiot

[img]http://sahallquist.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/ied_sim.jpg[/img] [img]http://911.tbaynitelife.com/bombing.jpg[/img] we westerners and them muslims have so much in common though, we both love bombing, yay! not really, this paranoid fear of muslims is dumb

From the quotes all I can see is "Yay for Danish culture, it's so much better than Muslim culture" "Muslims get angry when offended" "Yay for Danish culture, it's so much better than Muslim culture" "Muslims don't respect us"

that whole article is so generalist and insensitive it's unbelievable. "it is simply impossible for most Muslims", "Clearly, very few Muslims have the will, social freedom and strength of personality to go through such a psychologically demanding process." I mean seriously. Inside, people are pretty much the same wherever you go. Just because you have been brought up in one culture does not mean that you are inferior to bigoted western idiots like the tool who wrote that article and the tools who believe it.

Muslims can't be "Westerners"?

[QUOTE=mastermaul;23467241]Muslims can't be "Westerners"?[/QUOTE] no, they're a dirty brown hellspawns of satan who wishes to integrate themselves into jesus blessed U.S of A to force us to wear full veils and enslave women praise jesus

[QUOTE=Negrul1;23467226]that whole article is so generalist and insensitive it's unbelievable. "it is simply impossible for most Muslims", "Clearly, very few Muslims have the will, social freedom and strength of personality to go through such a psychologically demanding process." I mean seriously. Inside, people are pretty much the same wherever you go. Just because you have been brought up in one culture does not mean that you are inferior to bigoted western idiots like the tool who wrote that article and the tools who believe it.[/QUOTE] What I would like is a non-bigoted explanation for this: [quote]Denmark has foreigners from all over the world and according to official statistics from Danmarks Statistik all non-Muslim groups of immigrants are less criminal than the ethnic Danes. Even after adjusting, according to educational and economic levels, all Muslim groups are more criminal than any other ethnic group. Seven out of 10, in the youth prison where I worked, were Muslim.[/quote]

[quote]After having consulted with 150 young Muslim clients in therapy and 100 Danish clients (who, on average, shared the same age and social background as their Muslim inmates), my findings were that the Muslims’ cultural and religious experiences played a central role in their psychological development and criminal behavior. "Criminal foreigners" is not just a generalizing and imprecise term. It is unfair to non-Muslim foreigners and generally misleading.[/quote] I would go into the same conclusions after interviewing a selection of a few hundred criminals from [i]any[/i] culture.

[QUOTE=ThePuska;23467264]What I would like is a non-bigoted explanation for this:[/QUOTE] Correlation does not imply causation.

Damn that article was racist It pretty much claims that all Muslims are a threat to America. Seriously, it does

[QUOTE=bravehat;23467285]Correlation does not imply causation.[/QUOTE] I'm sure you noticed that I'm not offering an explanation myself. I'm pointing out the correlation and I'm asking for an explanation for it. Because all explanation attempts I've seen are always accused of bigotry.

This guy is an idiot bigot. Why is he a psychologist? He said this in another article: [quote]Well, one significant conclusion was that having been raised in a Muslim environment – with Muslim parents and traditions – includes the risk of developing certain antisocial patterns.[/quote] His interviews/articles are basically summed up with: "Muslims are inferior."

[QUOTE=ThePuska;23467358]I'm sure you noticed that I'm not offering an explanation myself. I'm pointing out the correlation and I'm asking for an explanation for it. Because all explanation attempts I've seen are always accused of bigotry.[/QUOTE] What you're saying is implying that they are criminals because they are muslim. But that's wrong, they are criminals that happen to be muslims. For example if an atheist rapes someone is that because they have no guiding deity? If a christian shoots someone is that because their religion told them to? If a Muslim beats a woman is that because of religion? The answer is most likely a no. The christian probably had a reason for it that was unreligious in any way. The atheist was a useless dick who wanted his hole and hurt someone to get it. The muslim was like the atheist, a massively useless dick with anger issues. There's no link to religion apart from the fact that he was religious to some degree, they didn't do this shit because of religion they just happened to be a part of that religion. Fuck sake it's like folk saying all Austrians commit genocide cause of Hitler.

[QUOTE=lolwutdude;23467258]no, they're a dirty brown hellspawns of satan who wishes to integrate themselves into jesus blessed U.S of A to force us to wear full veils and enslave women praise jesus[/QUOTE] damn straight lawdy

[QUOTE=bravehat;23467478]What you're saying is implying that they are criminals because they are muslim. But that's wrong, they are criminals that happen to be muslims. For example if an atheist rapes someone is that because they have no guiding deity? If a christian shoots someone is that because their religion told them to? If a Muslim beats a woman is that because of religion? The answer is most likely a no. The christian probably had a reason for it that was unreligious in any way. The atheist was a useless dick who wanted his hole and hurt someone to get it. The muslim was like the atheist, a massively useless dick with anger issues. There's no link to religion apart from the fact that he was religious to some degree, they didn't do this shit because of religion they just happened to be a part of that religion. Fuck sake it's like folk saying all Austrians commit genocide cause of Hitler.[/QUOTE] The problem is that we're not talking about an individual case. We're talking about [i]correlation[/i] drawn from the statistics of at least one country, Denmark. I've also seen similar figures from Norway but I really can't be arsed to dig them up. If there's correlation, there's some kind of a link between the two things. And I'm sure that with some human ingenuity, it can be explained what that link is. In fact, some people are trying to explain it. What I'm implying is not that they're right. What I'm implying is that if you think that those people are bigots and wrong, please explain not why they're bigots, but why they're wrong.

No dude you just proved what I said. How is this linked to religious teachings. They are criminals and muslims, they aren't criminals because they are muslim. And I think they are wrong because Correlation =/= Causation. If they can find some inexplicable link between Muslim teachings and a criminal life style then bravo and well done to them, I will put on a hat and take it off to them, but until then, it's wasted time and energy.

[QUOTE=ThePuska;23467640]The problem is that we're not talking about an individual case. We're talking about [I]correlation[/I] drawn from the statistics of at least one country, Denmark. I've also seen similar figures from Norway but I really can't be arsed to dig them up. If there's correlation, there's some kind of a link between the two things. And I'm sure that with some human ingenuity, it can be explained what that link is. In fact, some people are trying to explain it. What I'm implying is not that they're right. What I'm implying is that if you think that those people are bigots and wrong, please explain not why they're bigots, but why they're wrong.[/QUOTE] There's a correlation between black people and crimes, explain why I am wrong.

[QUOTE=bravehat;23467664]No dude you just proved what I said. How is this linked to religious teachings. They are criminals and muslims, they aren't criminals because they are muslim. And I think they are wrong because Correlation =/= Causation. If they can find some inexplicable link between Muslim teachings and a criminal life style then bravo and well done to them, I will put on a hat and take it off to them, but until then, it's wasted time and energy.[/QUOTE] Read the article, or at least the OP. If you want an explanation for the correlation, the article is trying to give one.

The only way in which I see Muslims being different to Westeners is in that we have different philosophical and medical histories. Other than that i see no difference.

If you guys have lived in Qatar (in the middle east), the natives there are fucking dicks. Qatar is I think the 2nd-5th most rich country, and the natives there just try to piss you off in every single way. If you get in a car accident, then its ALWAYS your fault, not the natives'. If you are in frontt of their car, they will beep and honk until your ass falls off. They are also lazy people who do nothing and get shitloads of money.

It's not really an uncommon social system, the old western system was very similar and some east Asian cultures are the same. As shown by many people who come here, it's not a difference that can't be overcome either after a few years.

That's basically what Mr. Garrisson said about Muslims in South Park, just more elaborate. With the difference that the writer of this stuff is actually serious...

[QUOTE=ThePuska;23467705]Read the article, or at least the OP. If you want an explanation for the correlation, the article is trying to give one.[/QUOTE] And it's wrong. That's what I'm saying. It isn't the fucking religion, it's society. It doesn't matter what the religion is or isn't or even if their isn't one, it all lies on the parents.

[QUOTE=bravehat;23467899]And it's wrong. That's what I'm saying. It isn't the fucking religion, it's society. It doesn't matter what the religion is or isn't or even if their isn't one, it all lies on the parents.[/QUOTE] It's wrong, yet you agree with it? If you read the article, it says nothing about beliefs and deities. It's specifically talking about the Muslim society and how it differs from the Western one.

[quote=article]This was a real shock to me. Many of my Muslim clients were second or even third generation immigrants, but, still they did not feel Danish. Actually it seemed that many of them were even more religious and hateful towards non-Muslims than their first generation immigrant parents.[/quote] This isn't really a big surprise to me, we've got plenty of Australian born guys who talk with fake Italian accents here; even guys actually born Overseas think they are an embarrasment. It's a problem with the society and actually making an effort to help them integrate instead of just giving them a house and expecting them to absorb the environment. [editline]12:21AM[/editline] [QUOTE=ThePuska;23468008]It's wrong, yet you agree with it? If you read the article, it says nothing about beliefs and deities. It's specifically talking about the Muslim society and how it differs from the Western one.[/QUOTE] The problem is refering to it as Muslim society as that implies that Islam is related to it. There's not really a connection between the religion and the society so it's not correct but it's easier to say Muslim as a blanket for people of Middle eastern descent.