Leaked documents: Palestinians agreed to 'symbolic' return of refugees
57 replies, posted
[QUOTE]Jerusalem (CNN) -- Palestinian leaders privately agreed to accept a very limited return of the 6 million Palestinian refugees and their descendants to previous homes in what is now Israel, leaked documents showed Tuesday.
The leaked documents dealing with the sensitive issue of the "right of return" for Palestinian refugees comes a day after the Arab news network Al-Jazeera began releasing documents revealing details of Israeli-Palestinian peace negotiations. The leaks have prompted protests and outrage in the West Bank and Gaza.
According to the minutes of a meeting in January 2010 Palestinian Chief Negotiator Saeb Erakat told U.S. State department official David Hale that the Palestinians had accepted a "symbolic number" of refugees returning to Israel.
In minutes from a meeting the year before with his own negotiating team Erakat said that the former Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert had accepted the return of a 1,000 refugees annually for a period of ten years.
Speaking to negotiators in 2009 Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas said, "On numbers of refugees it is illogical to ask Israel to take 5 million or indeed 1 million -- that would mean the end of Israel."
The "right of return" is a highly sensitive topic for both Palestinians and Israelis and remains one of the core sticking points in achieving a peace deal. Any concession on the issue of refugees by either side poses huge difficulties with their political constituencies.
For most Palestinians the eventual return to their former homes in what is now Israel remains a fundamental requirement while Israelis argue that the large-scale return of refugees would spell the end of the Jewish majority state.
Complicating matters for the Palestinian Authority in dealing with the issue of refugees return are comments attributed to Erakat from the minutes of a 2007 meeting with the Belgian Foreign Minister Karel De Gucht in which the chief Palestinian negotiator suggested that refugees would not have the right to vote on a peace deal.
"I never said the Diaspora will vote. It's not going to happen. The referendum will be for Palestinians in Gaza, the West Bank and East Jerusalem. Can't do it in Lebanon. Can't do it in Jordan."
In a statement Monday, Erakat said that "a number of reports have surfaced regarding our positions in our negotiations with Israel, many of which have misrepresented our positions, taking statements and facts out of context. Other allegations circulated in the media have been patently false."
He added, "Our position has been the same for the past 19 years of negotiations: We seek to establish a sovereign and independent Palestinian state along the 1967 borders with East Jerusalem as its capital and to reach a just solution to the refugee issue based on their international legal rights", adding any proposed agreement "would have to gain popular support through a national referendum."
Other revelations from the second day of leaked document include:
-- The suggestion by then Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice in a 2008 tri-lateral meeting with Israeli and Palestinian officials that refugees could be sent to outside countries such as Chile and Argentina;
-- the suggestion in 2008 meetings by then Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni that future land swaps should include Israeli Arab villages;
-- the refusal of the Obama White House to accept a Bush administration decision to use 1967 borders as a baseline for negotiations between Israeli and Palestinians about any proposed land swap agreement.
On Sunday Al-Jazeera began its release of over 1,600 documents dubbed "The Palestine Papers." The first release of papers suggested that Palestinian negotiators offered to give up large swaths of East Jerusalem to Israel during negotiations dating back to 2008 and that they had been willing to offer much larger concessions in private than they were acknowledging public.
The leaked papers brought a furious reaction form Palestinian Authority officials with President Abbas calling the release "shameful."
"The report aired by Al-Jazeera is an intentional mixing between the many Israeli proposals and the Palestinian positions," Abbas said in Cairo, Egypt, in comments published by the Palestinian news agency Wafa.
Yasser Abed Rabbo, a senior Abbas adviser went further, accusing Al-Jazeera of a "smear campaign."
"What happened is a manipulation of the documents and a misrepresentation of the facts and a true distortion, just for mockery and defiance," Abed Rabbo told reporters.
Contacted by CNN, al-Jazeera declined to comment on the criticisms from the Palestinian Authority.
Dozens of Palestinians gathered Monday in central Ramallah, burning banners for Al-Jazeera and holding posters comparing the channel to Israel. Several demonstrators also attempted to storm the offices of the al-Jazeera office but were turned back by Palestinian police personnel.
U.S. State department spokesman P.J. Crowley refused to comment on any of the specific documents, but told reporters that their release complicated the efforts to get Israelis and Palestinians back to the negotiating table.
"We don't deny that this release will, at least for a time, make the situation more difficult than it already was," Crowley said. "We continue to believe that a framework agreement is both possible and necessary."
The papers, some of which were posted on the Al-Jazeera network's website, shed new light on the details of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict from 1999 through last year. CNN could not immediately verifiy the documents.[/QUOTE]
Source: [url]http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/meast/01/25/mideast.al.jazeera.leaks/index.html[/url]
I'm not sure how to respond?
[quote]For most Palestinians the eventual return to their former homes in what is now Israel remains a fundamental requirement while Israelis argue that the large-scale return of refugees would spell the end of the Jewish majority state.[/quote]
ohhh no!!!!!!11
Make it a democratic, non Zionist state that is secular.
Well it's a good start, but not enough for them...
[QUOTE=PEn1s lol;27661413]Make it a democratic, non Zionist state that is secular.[/QUOTE]
While I agree, that kind of cancels the whole point of Israel.
I would only agree with you once religion is completely abolished from this world.
I mean, come on, once a Jewish majority disappears from Israel, what kind of guarantee do you have that Israel won't turn in to a Muslim religious state like most of the countries in the area?
The jewish-themed laws in Israel are currently non intrusive, as in they don't tell you what to wear or what to do when you're in your house or on the street. For example, on Jewish themed law is getting payed extra (150-200%) if you work on Saturday, or banning the sales of bread in public places in passover (A very limited law-this mainly applies to supermarkets and Kosher bakeries, not non Kosher bakeries and restaurants), and you can still keep it in your house without any kind of problem.
As much as this sounds stupid (and I agree-it kind of is), you've got to remember that about 49% of the Jewish population in Israel-about 2.5 million people out of the 7 million that live in Israel- is religious on some way, and you can't exactly ignore them.
If an Arab majority forms in Israel, you have the chance of intrusive Muslim religious laws forming as well. This is what the Israeli population is so afraid of, and why most of them don't support the Palestinian right of return.
If there was no religion involved, nobody would give two fucks about the issue. And I wish there wasn't, but unfortunately, there is.
[QUOTE=Glorbo;27666260]While I agree, that kind of cancels the whole point of Israel.
I would only agree with you once religion is completely abolished from this world.
I mean, come on, once a Jewish majority disappears from Israel, what kind of guarantee do you have that Israel won't turn in to a Muslim religious state like most of the countries in the area?
The jewish-themed laws in Israel are currently non intrusive, as in they don't tell you what to wear or what to do when you're in your house or on the street. For example, on Jewish themed law is getting payed extra (150-200%) if you work on Saturday, or banning the sales of bread in public places in passover (A very limited law-this mainly applies to supermarkets and Kosher bakeries, not non Kosher bakeries and restaurants), and you can still keep it in your house without any kind of problem.
As much as this sounds stupid (and I agree-it kind of is), you've got to remember that about 49% of the Jewish population in Israel-about 2.5 million people out of the 7 million that live in Israel- is religious on some way, and you can't exactly ignore them.
If an Arab majority forms in Israel, you have the chance of intrusive Muslim religious laws forming as well. This is what the Israeli population is so afraid of, and why most of them don't support the Palestinian right of return.
If there was no religion involved, nobody would give two fucks about the issue. And I wish there wasn't, but unfortunately, there is.[/QUOTE]
Thats why it is a secular state.
[QUOTE=PEn1s lol;27701843]Thats why it is a secular state.[/QUOTE]
It would never last.
The Palestinians should all have their homes back.
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;27701906]It would never last.[/QUOTE]
Remove the democracy, a secular autocracy.
[QUOTE=PEn1s lol;27731817]Remove the democracy, a secular autocracy.[/QUOTE]
So do you want a Jewish autocracy or an Arab autocracy? Either way, the problem still isn't solved regardless of secularism.
Religion is only half the problem. Don't forget ethnic differences as well.
Even without all the religion thing, a small country with 7 million people just can't handle 1 million refugees all suddenly getting citizenship and asking for things like home, jobs, social security, etc. Especially since a good number of those might be not skilled enough to function in a modern society (like, they might have the skills to sustain themselves in a less-than-modern society, like if they know basic farming and stuff, but they won't be able to compete with modern farming techniques and won't be able to live on anything other than their own crops).
Now when you think about 5 million refugees, there is just no way, even at the face of total annihilation, Israel will never accept the Palestinian right of return en masse, accepting it is like sending a nuclear bomb on themselves, the country will not only probably turn into an Islamic theocracy as some have said here, but it'll also explode on itself by not being able to handle all the refugees.
The easiest way for Israel to accept all these refugees is if they'll be allowed to return over time, say, a million people over 10 years, however, it is quite possible that the Palestinian refugee population will grow faster than the amount of people who are allowed to return, meaning that the Palestinians will never truly be granted "the right to return".
[QUOTE=OogalaBoogal;27702011]The Palestinians should all have their homes back.[/QUOTE]
Then where would the Israelis go?
[QUOTE=5killer;27746695]Then where would the Israelis go?[/QUOTE]
Wish that mindset was applied by the Zionists before they took over.
[QUOTE=Starpluck;27746837]Wish that mindset was applied by the Zionists before they took over.[/QUOTE]
They did think about it, a lot. There was no perfect solution that they could of taken though so they would of had problems anywhere they went. Offering no arbitrarily better solution and just complaining because they brought the problem to you doesn't mean shit.
The above is true. What better alternatives for the hundreds of thousands of isolated, displaced Jews, who had lost everything they had, were there?
[QUOTE=Dr_Funk;27748586]The above is true. What better alternatives for the hundreds of thousands of isolated, displaced Jews, who had lost everything they had, were there?[/QUOTE]
Herp derp let's make other people lose their homeland herp derp.
[QUOTE=Miskav;27748659]Herp derp let's make other people lose their homeland herp derp.[/QUOTE]
Herp derp maybe if we ignore the Jews they'll disappear.
[QUOTE=Dr_Funk;27748668]Herp derp maybe if we ignore the Jews they'll disappear.[/QUOTE]
Just because the jews got a lot of flak in the second world war is no fucking reason to carve out their biblical homeland for them, that cause all the fucking problems in the first place.
And no one said ignore the jews asshole, nice strawman.
[QUOTE=Dr_Funk;27748668]Herp derp maybe if we ignore the Jews they'll disappear.[/QUOTE]
herp derp jews are more important than arabs herp.
I realize the jews have faced oppression throughout the ages, but the second they get their own nation they start the behavior that they tried so hard to get away from.
If anything, they're less human than anyone else, because they know the results of such persecution.
Note; I'm not talking about jews in general, I'm talking about jews that condone israel's actions.
Let's go back to just after World War 2. We've got many Jews - they need to go somewhere. However, you guys aren't actually making suggestions, but just dismissing one you don't like. Unfortunately, you don't have that luxury - you have to do something. You're ignoring the Jews. Currently, my idea is better than yours, because yours doesn't exist.
Also, gents. The current situation in the Middle East is NOT like the Nazi regime's treatment of the Jews. As far as I'm aware, there is no secret Jewish conspiracy for the ultimate destruction of all... Arabs?
Here's a crazy fucking idea.
Let them live where they used to live instead of carving up a map for them.
Wow fuck look at that suddenly no problems holy tits ain't that a ridiculous idea.
[QUOTE=Dr_Funk;27748748]Let's go back to just after World War 2. We've got many Jews - they need to go somewhere. However, you guys aren't actually making suggestions, but just dismissing one you don't like. Unfortunately, you don't have that luxury - you have to do something. You're ignoring the Jews. Currently, my idea is better than yours, because yours doesn't exist.
Also, gents. The current situation in the Middle East is NOT like the Nazi regime's treatment of the Jews. As far as I'm aware, there is no secret Jewish conspiracy for the ultimate destruction of all... Arabs?[/QUOTE]
We've got many jews, yes, but does that mean that another group of people needs to be kicked out of their homeland, oppressed and treated like subhumans (Omg, I see a connection here)?
The jews went through a lot of shit, I admit, but this does not make them some-how more deserving than any other human being, Just send them back where they came from.
[QUOTE=bravehat;27748708]Just because the jews got a lot of flak in the second world war is no fucking reason to carve out their biblical homeland for them, that cause all the fucking problems in the first place.
And no one said ignore the jews asshole, nice strawman.[/QUOTE]
They have gotten a lot of flak for centuries. They have always been a minority since the original Israel and as was standard in past times, minorities were treated horribly. WW2 wasn't the only part, just a large influencing factor. Something had to happen, just because it happened where it happened doesn't make any incriminating factor.[QUOTE=Miskav;27748711]herp derp jews are more important than arabs herp.
I realize the jews have faced oppression throughout the ages, but the second they get their own nation they start the behavior that they tried so hard to get away from.
If anything, they're less human than anyone else, because they know the results of such persecution.
Note; I'm not talking about jews in general, I'm talking about jews that condone israel's actions.[/QUOTE]
You are a fucking retard. Anywhere they would of gone they would of displaced someone and just because it was the Arabs, now everyone acts like the Jews think they are the master race. The Arabs were not picked deliberately, they are just another one of the numerous races who treated the Jews poorly.
Yeah, stealth Godwin, good one. Look at Egypt torturing detainees, they at least treated Palestinian detainees better than that. I could go on but you wouldn't listen to any of it, just whinge about how because everything they do is put under a fucking microscope, it's the worlds biggest tragedy. Not allowing refugees is also completely different to hunting down and slaughtering them, don't kid yourself.
Then you follow it off with a classic "I'm not racist, if you agree with me then you're ok". You are disgusting.
[editline]30th January 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=bravehat;27748772]Here's a crazy fucking idea.
Let them live where they used to live instead of carving up a map for them.
Wow fuck look at that suddenly no problems holy tits ain't that a ridiculous idea.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, let's go back to when everyone persecuted them and when they tried to flee from persecution, no-one would take them. Brilliant idea.
There would be no problems for the Arabs, that's not to say there wouldn't be problems for everyone else.
[QUOTE=Devodiere;27748820]They have gotten a lot of flak for centuries. They have always been a minority since the original Israel and as was standard in past times, minorities were treated horribly. WW2 wasn't the only part, just a large influencing factor. Something had to happen, just because it happened where it happened doesn't make any incriminating factor.
You are a fucking retard. Anywhere they would of gone they would of displaced someone and just because it was the Arabs, now everyone acts like the Jews think they are the master race. The Arabs were not picked deliberately, they are just another one of the numerous races who treated the Jews poorly.
Yeah, stealth Godwin, good one. Look at Egypt torturing detainees, they at least treated Palestinian detainees better than that. I could go on but you wouldn't listen to any of it, just whinge about how because everything they do is put under a fucking microscope, it's the worlds biggest tragedy. Not allowing refugees is also completely different to hunting down and slaughtering them, don't kid yourself.
Then you follow it off with a classic "I'm not racist, if you agree with me then you're ok". You are disgusting.
[editline]30th January 2011[/editline]
Yeah, let's go back to when everyone persecuted them and when they tried to flee from persecution, no-one would take them. Brilliant idea.
There would be no problems for the Arabs, that's not to say there wouldn't be problems for everyone else.[/QUOTE]
You people go on and on about how the jews needed their own state.
Now here's a crazy notion; Why aren't all jews in that state then? What about the other jews? They must be getting horribly abused on a daily basis and chained to the floor, because they're unable to go to their dreamland that they so rightly desire and deserve.
Answer? No-one gives a flying fuck, jews are normal people, not special in any way, shape or form.
You people are the problem, you differentiate between races on a fundamental level instead of seeing them as a whole.
You can try to act high and mighty, saying you have good intentions for the Jews, but that doesn't change the fact that you're basically a textbook case of racism.
Also nice personal attacks there, really helps bring out your point.
[QUOTE=Dr_Funk;27748668]Herp derp maybe if we ignore the Jews they'll disappear.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Dr_Funk;27748586]The above is true. What better alternatives for the hundreds of thousands of isolated, displaced Jews, who had lost everything they had, were there?[/QUOTE]
Oh, it that’s “well the Jews had to endure the holocaust” argument. To be frank, I’m getting sick of it. It is unfortunate they did have to endure it, but it’s hard to feel sympathy when the holocaust keeps getting exploited. The Palestinians were not responsible for the holocaust so maybe a better solution would not to follow a biblical myth and kick out the inhabitants.
[QUOTE=Devodiere;27748820]They have gotten a lot of flak for centuries. They have always been a minority since the original Israel and as was standard in past times, minorities were treated horribly. WW2 wasn't the only part, just a large influencing factor. Something had to happen, just because it happened where it happened doesn't make any incriminating factor.[/QUOTE]
Oh, it that’s “well the Jews had to endure the holocaust” argument. To be frank, I’m getting sick of it. It is unfortunate they did have to endure it, but it’s hard to feel sympathy when the holocaust keeps getting exploited. The Palestinians were not responsible for the holocaust so maybe a better solution would not to follow a biblical myth and kick out the inhabitants.
[quote]You are a fucking retard. Anywhere they would of gone they would of displaced someone and just because it was the Arabs, now everyone acts like the Jews think they are the master race. The Arabs were not picked deliberately, they are just another one of the numerous races who treated the Jews poorly.
Yeah, stealth Godwin, good one. Look at Egypt torturing detainees, they at least treated Palestinian detainees better than that. I could go on but you wouldn't listen to any of it, just whinge about how because everything they do is put under a fucking microscope, it's the worlds biggest tragedy. Not allowing refugees is also completely different to hunting down and slaughtering them, don't kid yourself.
Then you follow it off with a classic "I'm not racist, if you agree with me then you're ok". You are disgusting.[/quote]
Class-A personal attacks rather then refuting, keep it up.
[quote]
Yeah, let's go back to when everyone persecuted them and when they tried to flee from persecution, no-one would take them. Brilliant idea.
There would be no problems for the Arabs, that's not to say there wouldn't be problems for everyone else.[/quote]
Nazi Germany no longer existed at the end of WW II, thus anti-Semitism came to a halt. And if there were to be a Jewish nation in Europe, you’d have to be retarded to think there’d be enough anti-Semitism in that Jewish State to cause the Jews to flee.
[QUOTE=Miskav;27748867]You people go on and on about how the jews needed their own state.
Now here's a crazy notion; Why aren't all jews in that state then? What about the other jews? They must be getting horribly abused on a daily basis and chained to the floor, because they're unable to go to their dreamland that they so rightly desire and deserve.
Answer? No-one gives a flying fuck, jews are normal people, not special in any way, shape or form.
You people are the problem, you differentiate between races on a fundamental level instead of seeing them as a whole. [/quote]
Here's an idea, if Arabs have plenty of states of their own why do they go to other countries? Or anyone for that matter, why do Africans travel to other countries when Africa should do fine?
People differentiate on all kinds of stupid things and if they want to persecute a minority, Jews are a nice target. Even the KKK focused on Jews for whatever reason. They can live in other countries, but why shouldn't they be allowed to rule themselves? The right for Israel to exist is not contested, you just take issue with them existing where you don't want and doing things you don't like.
Everyone is a whole, there are no races, we can all live in peace and harmony! Unfortunately no-one else thinks about that. Even the Arabs hate Jews and always have. Before Israel they were another minority to oppress, now they are related to Israel and reason enough to hate for that. No-one will put aside their differences for the utopia you suggest so why am I racist to take that into account?
[quote]You can try to act high and mighty, saying you have good intentions for the Jews, but that doesn't change the fact that you're basically a textbook case of racism.
Also nice personal attacks there, really helps bring out your point.[/QUOTE]
Criticising me for calling you stupid but calling me racist. Classy. Also I called you stupid because you have retarded arguments. You need something to back up calling me racist.
[editline]30th January 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=Starpluck;27748947]Oh, it that’s “well the Jews had to endure the holocaust” argument. To be frank, I’m getting sick of it. It is unfortunate they did have to endure it, but it’s hard to feel sympathy when the holocaust keeps getting exploited. The Palestinians were not responsible for the holocaust so maybe a better solution would not to follow a biblical myth and kick out the inhabitants.[/quote]
They were persecuted throughout history, not just the fucking holocaust. Read it instead of skimming for keywords. No-one says the Palestinians have to pay and we have reiterated that throughout the entire thread, but someone had to bear the brunt of it. It happened to be Palestine, it's a shame but it's not their fault for it.
Also lol at you, trying to feign sympathy for holocaust victims. You're growing up to be just like Normal Finkelstein.
[quote]Class-A personal attacks rather then refuting, keep it up.[/quote]
You insulted me, therefore your argument is invalid. What is that, some reverse ad hominem where you take protest with being called names? Grow some balls, argue the things you can and try to prove it wrong.
[quote]Nazi Germany no longer existed at the end of WW II, thus anti-Semitism came to a halt. And if there were to be a Jewish nation in Europe, you’d have to be retarded to think there’d be enough anti-Semitism in that Jewish State to cause the Jews to flee.[/QUOTE]
HAHAHAHAHAH, OH WOW.
Someone try telling the Jews anti-Semitism's dead and they have nothing to worry about. They'll totally go for it.
I love how none of you even consider the fact that the jews persecution complex is the problem.
[QUOTE=Devodiere;27748961]They were persecuted throughout history, not just the fucking holocaust. Read it instead of skimming for keywords.[/QUOTE] My argument still stands. Whether it was throughout history or not, that doesn’t change jackshit. “Oh well, it might be more justifiable since they were treated harshly before the holocaust as well.”
[quote]You insulted me, therefore your argument is invalid. What is that, some reverse ad hominem where you take protest with being called names? Grow some balls, argue the things you can and try to prove it wrong.[/quote] Nah, you never actually brought upon an argument. All it consisted of was mindless childish names, no ones going to bother and say, “No I’m not!” and if there was an argument hidden beneath your flaming, it was already refuted.
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