Visegrad Group (Poland, Slovakia, Czech Republic, Hungary): any proposal leading to introduction of - Polidicks

[url]http://www.visegradgroup.eu/calendar/2015/joint-statement-of-the-150904[/url] [QUOTE]Hungary belongs among those most exposed to migratory pressures and affected by their impacts. The Prime Ministers of the CzechRepublic, Poland and the Slovak Republic therefore reiterate their full support to Hungary in tackling this challenge. As an expression of their solidarity, the Prime Ministers stand ready to provide Hungary with further assistance. The countries of the Visegrad Group declare that they will continue to fulfil their obligations under the EU acquis, including the responsibility to protect the EU and Schengen Area external borders. The countries of the Visegrad Group stress that under the current circumstances of highest urgency the EU must focus on a constructive dialogue leading to effective common action and avoid any mutual accusations. Preserving the voluntary nature of EU solidarity measures – so that each Member State may build on its experience, best practices and available resources; principles agreed at the highest political level, including in European Council conclusions must be respected; any proposal leading to introduction of mandatory and permanent quota for solidarity measures would be unacceptable. The countries of the Visegrad Group have continuously pointed out that an effective management of the root causes of migration flows is the key element. The EU action plan stated in the June European Council conclusions provides an adequate basis in this respect. However, the progress so far on the ground has not been sufficient. The countries of the Visegrad Group therefore call for its rapid implementation. The countries of the Visegrad Group invite the European Commission to take stock of actions already undertaken at the extraordinary meeting of EU Ministers of Interior of 14 September and to present viable measures in order to effectively decrease and eventually cease the pull factors. The countries of the Visegrad Group reiterate that the debate at the EU level on these elements should continue in a complex and balanced manner, based on the full implementation of the April and June European Council conclusions. The countries of the Visegrad Group call upon the European Commission to mobilize the relevant resources, to coordinate actively all relevant EU policies and instruments so that these can be fully used, strengthened, improved and aligned with national policies and instruments.[/QUOTE]

Honestly I am feel very ashamed about this bullshit but I would blame it on our very lively populist movement and rather "fuck you, get your own" attitude of the populace that is made largely of either right wing liberals who are extremely worried about these BENEFIT LEECHES, and then the left wing conservatives who might not be that worried about the whole helping hand thing but are VERY CONCERNED ABOUT THESE MUSLIM TERRIRIST TENDENCIES. Pretty much all our self respecting sociologists are trying to calm people down, and solid part of the populace is at the very least indifferent about the immigrants, but at political level as well as when it comes to the loud far right minorities, the immigrants are a scrapegoat for everything. I find this doubly shameful if one considers how important role immigration played in Czech history on multiple occasions.

I'm not a European and I don't really follow this issue, but I'm curious if this is correct: 1. Neoliberalism and post-war economic growth create both a labor shortage as well as demand for non-unionized labor (inherently drawing on non-European countries without exposure to the left or any sort of labor tradition) 2. Yankee imperialists destabilize the MENA region, creating refugees their gulf monarchy allies don't even accept 3. Unskilled third world laborers, because they're exactly that, become a ghettoized underclass and when faced with half-naked women insecurely retreat into an illiberal, reactionary identity based on backwards Abrahamic morals from a region where the Enlightenment never spread. 4. Meanwhile, destabilized Arab nation-states give way to Salafi crazies which link their cause with above demographic, offering them a way out from the 'materialism' and plutocracy of capitalism (incidentally a historic ally of Arab nationalists and responsible for Sykes-Picot) with Islamic charity and other bullshit 5. Nobody knows what to do because everything seems mired in race. Liberalism/social progressivism is thus far in history a 'white' thing, while Islam and other culturally-inspired reactionary crap is a 'brown' thing (which would explain why some African-Americans embraced Islam). A European state insisting on acceptance of the former could be seen as 'racist' or at least just using it as an indirect means to preserve racial homogeneity.

nope

[QUOTE=Awesomecaek;48616184]Honestly I am feel very ashamed about this bullshit but I would blame it on our very lively populist movement and rather "fuck you, get your own" attitude of the populace that is made largely of either right wing liberals who are extremely worried about these BENEFIT LEECHES, and then the left wing conservatives who might not be that worried about the whole helping hand thing but are VERY CONCERNED ABOUT THESE MUSLIM TERRIRIST TENDENCIES. Pretty much all our self respecting sociologists are trying to calm people down, and solid part of the populace is at the very least indifferent about the immigrants, but at political level as well as when it comes to the loud far right minorities, the immigrants are a scrapegoat for everything. I find this doubly shameful if one considers how important role immigration played in Czech history on multiple occasions.[/QUOTE] Except they are a burden, in such large numbers, they are quite a hefty burden too. Regardless of what your personal opinion is, they will be required to use "benefits" as they have no choice. And a lot won't be able to land jobs in the near future because landing a job for people who speak the native language and are already skilled is already hard enough. It's perfectly normal for people being disgruntled that their taxes are being siphoned to these people's expenses rather than their own interests. It's just a sad reality of the situation

[QUOTE=Conscript;48616538]I'm not a European and I don't really follow this issue, but I'm curious if this is correct: 1. Neoliberalism and post-war economic growth create both a labor shortage as well as demand for non-unionized labor (inherently drawing on non-European countries without exposure to the left or any sort of labor tradition) 2. Yankee imperialists destabilize the MENA region, creating refugees their gulf monarchy allies don't even accept 3. Unskilled third world laborers, because they're exactly that, become a ghettoized underclass and when faced with half-naked women insecurely retreat into an illiberal, reactionary identity based on backwards Abrahamic morals from a region where the Enlightenment never spread. 4. Meanwhile, destabilized Arab nation-states give way to Salafi crazies which link their cause with above demographic, offering them a way out from the 'materialism' and plutocracy of capitalism (incidentally a historic ally of Arab nationalists and responsible for Sykes-Picot) with Islamic charity and other bullshit 5. Nobody knows what to do because everything seems mired in race. Liberalism/social progressivism is thus far in history a 'white' thing, while Islam and other culturally-inspired reactionary crap is a 'brown' thing (which would explain why some African-Americans embraced Islam). A European state insisting on acceptance of the former could be seen as 'racist' or at least just using it as an indirect means to preserve racial homogeneity.[/QUOTE] It's a very bizarre and distorted view of things, made worse by the self-admitted fact that you don't really follow the issue. There's a degree of racism in your viewpoint too which clouds things.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;48617862]It's a very bizarre and distorted view of things, made worse by the self-admitted fact that you don't really follow the issue. There's a degree of racism in your viewpoint too which clouds things.[/QUOTE] It's funny you say that because I took it from a European salafist.

[QUOTE=Big Johnson;48617789]Except they are a burden, in such large numbers, they are quite a hefty burden too. Regardless of what your personal opinion is, they will be required to use "benefits" as they have no choice. And a lot won't be able to land jobs in the near future because landing a job for people who speak the native language and are already skilled is already hard enough. It's perfectly normal for people being disgruntled that their taxes are being siphoned to these people's expenses rather than their own interests. It's just a sad reality of the situation[/QUOTE] Except it's well known they won't be a burden. [I]Some[/I] might need benefits, for [I]some[/I] amount of time but there's enough statistical evidence that the immigration from these areas to west Europe is a net economical benefit. Czech Republic's population in particular is growing older and would be shrinking if it weren't for emigration. The analysis of our demographics led to openly stated conclusion that Czech Republic does rely on emigration for sustaining positive economical growth and the current social standard of living. There's a figure of the Czech "fair share" of the current mass of emigrants being sanctioned by EU to be at around 5000. Czech republic isn't big, but that's a spit in the ocean as far as the job market goes, and vast majority of these people are very willing to work for their living. No real economist will agree with you that these people are an economical burden for any of the countries they come to. The argument that we can't sustain them is based on lack of economical understanding and xenophobia.

[QUOTE=Awesomecaek][/QUOTE] Civilized idividuals looking for work in another country with same culture and traditions ≠ hundreds of thousands of people literally running across the continent expecting to get free shit when they reach their destination, making numerous riots on the way and leaving trash everywhere.

[video]https://youtu.be/TDMdtbfMnVE[/video] I really can't see those war refugees, trying to run away from certain death. Actual refugees would stay at the camp and be happy they received ANY sort of help. You people seriously aren't against that? You're delusional. And no, just because video belongs to Russia Today doesn't make it any less significant.

When people *refuse* to drink water so that their elders and sick people can look even worse, and then be used as political leverage to gain access to 1st world countries, you really start to think twice about these people's true intentions. Why would someone do something like this? [hd]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7L3eSbpETf8&sns=fb[/hd] After re-reading my previous paragraph, I notice that it can be taken as pretty xenophobic, I know. I try my best not to cherrypick my argument, and I know a majority of them just want a better place for themselves and their family... but moving to a 1st world country and just live off of social benefits, as many intend to do, is not a permanent solution, and they need to understand that.

[QUOTE=Awesomecaek;48618907]Except it's well known they won't be a burden. [I]Some[/I] might need benefits, for [I]some[/I] amount of time but there's enough statistical evidence that the immigration from these areas to west Europe is a net economical benefit.[/QUOTE]What fucking part of "they fled their country with only the shirts on their backs" do you not understand? These aren't high caliber, successful individuals immigrating to a country with a job waiting, they're desperate people who fled all the way to Europe escaping war in the Middle East. They're going to be on government and international charity handouts. [QUOTE=Awesomecaek;48618907]No real economist will agree with you that these people are an economical burden for any of the countries they come to. The argument that we can't sustain them is based on lack of economical understanding and xenophobia.[/QUOTE]Thousands and thousands of people arriving with nothing at all and being fed and cared for by the local population wouldn't be an economic burden? [editline]5th September 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Pretiacruento;48619150]After re-reading my previous paragraph, I notice that it can be taken as pretty xenophobic, I know. I try my best not to cherrypick my argument, and I know a majority of them just want a better place for themselves and their family... but moving to a 1st world country and just live off of social benefits, as many intend to do, is not a permanent solution, and they need to understand that.[/QUOTE]I wouldn't be concerned about xenophobia if I were you, if people can't handle the truth then fuck them. That video legitimately makes me mad, I'd be so goddamn pissed if I was being ordered to drop off stuff and watch these fuckers toss it on the tracks the moment I set it down.

Ask Germany if imigrants are good for their society. Heard first hand not from one person about Drezden being unbearable due to imigrants everywhere. Also I love that story about how some imigrants came to Poland, saw the benefits Poland offers and literally proclaimed "We would rather die in Syria". Needless to say, Poland has no imigration problem.

[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;48619163]Thousands and thousands of people arriving with nothing at all and being fed and cared for by the local population wouldn't be an economic burden?[/QUOTE] Its not xenophobic to not want an arbitrary immigrant quota/limit. How many migrants a country accepts should be decided by the country accepting them and based on the current economic situation of the country.

[QUOTE=Rangergxi;48619217]Its not xenophobic to not want an arbitrary immigrant quota/limit. How many migrants a country accepts should be decided by the country accepting them and based on the current economic situation of the country.[/QUOTE]I don't disagree with that, I'm not sure why you quoted that particular part of my post though.

[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;48619173]Ask Germany if imigrants are good for their society. Heard first hand not from one person about Drezden being unbearable due to imigrants everywhere. Also I love that story about how some imigrants came to Poland, saw the benefits Poland offers and literally proclaimed "We would rather die in Syria". Needless to say, Poland has no imigration problem.[/QUOTE] Neither does Estonia due to really subpar social benefits.

[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;48619163]I wouldn't be concerned about xenophobia if I were you, if people can't handle the truth then fuck them. That video legitimately makes me mad, I'd be so goddamn pissed if I was being ordered to drop off stuff and watch these fuckers toss it on the tracks the moment I set it down.[/QUOTE] True, I guess I was just trying to say things for what they [I]really[/I] look like, without clashing with other people's political correctness on the matter. Hell, I'm not even Swedish and I honestly don't like it to see it labeled as [URL="http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/5195/sweden-rape"]the rape capital of the west[/URL]. It's no wonder people support the SD party over there. [editline]5th September 2015[/editline] Another thing I don't like, is that on videos like the ones I've posted above, the males tend to be violent and reactionary, while the women are behind, doing nothing, but the second they feel cornered, they put the women and children as human shields, and that *really* pisses me off. Whether they like it or not, women are treated [I]far[/I] better in the west (don't let SRS and Tumblr tell you otherwise), and these people don't seem to even show basic human respect towards women.

[QUOTE=Conscript;48618244]It's funny you say that because I took it from a European [b]salafist[/b].[/QUOTE] And that's where you already started to fail. [editline]5th September 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=MuffinZerg;48619173]Ask Germany if imigrants are good for their society. Heard first hand not from one person about Drezden being unbearable due to imigrants everywhere. Also I love that story about how some imigrants came to Poland, saw the benefits Poland offers and literally proclaimed "We would rather die in Syria". Needless to say, Poland has no imigration problem.[/QUOTE] My town also received refugees. Nobody complained. Of Course there are some who voice their concern as well as some who show outright hate. But it's currently a rather positive mindset that prolongs here. The police in Munich even urged people to stop bringing goods to the Train Station as a lot of people wanted to help the refugees and thousands of people spend their free time to help those who come here and seek Asylum.

[QUOTE=Pretiacruento;48619150]When people *refuse* to drink water so that their elders and sick people can look even worse, and then be used as political leverage to gain access to 1st world countries, you really start to think twice about these people's true intentions. Why would someone do something like this? [hd]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7L3eSbpETf8&sns=fb[/hd] After re-reading my previous paragraph, I notice that it can be taken as pretty xenophobic, I know. I try my best not to cherrypick my argument, and I know a majority of them just want a better place for themselves and their family... but moving to a 1st world country and just live off of social benefits, as many intend to do, is not a permanent solution, and they need to understand that.[/QUOTE] Time to clean the rust off the train tracks to Auschwitz, yet? [highlight](User was banned for this post ("Awful post" - Craptasket))[/highlight] [highlight](User was banned for this post ("ban evasion" - Orkel))[/highlight]

What's extremely worrying about this refugee crisis is that there's [i]absolutely no way[/i] that some of the refugees pouring in from the wartorn Middle-Eastern shitholes are [b]not[/b] ISIS sleeper agents trying to infect the civilized world with their fucking cancerous "caliphate".

[QUOTE=DudesonFan;48619353]What's extremely worrying about this refugee crisis is that there's [i]absolutely no way[/i] that some of the refugees pouring in from the wartorn Middle-Eastern shitholes are [b]not[/b] ISIS sleeper agents trying to infect the civilized world with their fucking cancerous "caliphate".[/QUOTE] I was thinking the same thing, funny how 85% of these "refugees" are men in their early 20s, in their peak physical condition. Why the fuck aren't they fighting ISIS as hard as they are trying to get into Germany.

[QUOTE=PrusseLusken;48619493]when people start to throw away water given because it's from BIG BAD MAGYAR! and scream and throw things at red cross aid workers because of the little red cross, i have absolutely zero sympathy for them and they should be sent back right away, with the actually suffering people needing the help being the ones who should get to stay in those videos, the most vocal ones are the ones who need it the least the families, the sick, elderly are all in the background not getting forwards the thousands of single young men causing scenes aren't the ones who need help so why are we letting them in?[/QUOTE] I hear ya. Too proud to take infidel water and food, but not too proud to take infidel money and welfare benefits. :/

[QUOTE=Buck.;48619482]I was thinking the same thing, funny how 85% of these "refugees" are men in their early 20s, in their peak physical condition. Why the fuck aren't they fighting ISIS as hard as they are trying to get into Germany.[/QUOTE] usually (at least here) the man comes to sweden as a refugee and gets asylum, then he can request for his family to come here too, which in most cases are granted. that way only one person has to "make the hard trip" here.

[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;48619163]What fucking part of "they fled their country with only the shirts on their backs" do you not understand? These aren't high caliber, successful individuals immigrating to a country with a job waiting, they're desperate people who fled all the way to Europe escaping war in the Middle East. They're going to be on government and international charity handouts. Thousands and thousands of people arriving with nothing at all and being fed and cared for by the local population wouldn't be an economic burden? [editline]5th September 2015[/editline] I wouldn't be concerned about xenophobia if I were you, if people can't handle the truth then fuck them. That video legitimately makes me mad, I'd be so goddamn pissed if I was being ordered to drop off stuff and watch these fuckers toss it on the tracks the moment I set it down.[/QUOTE] There's no point arguing with delusional people. Some people can't seem to put two and two together, it's actually hilarious how stupid it is. Flood of unskilled workers into countries with minimal unskilled work available- Well I'll be damned! That's gotta be good for the economy! While it's terrible that these people were forced out of their homeland, they are a burden on anywhere they go until they get helped onto their feet and pick up a skill. Sure some are skilled, but do they have western standard qualifications? Nope. The vast majority do not.

[QUOTE=Conscript;48618244]It's funny you say that because I took it from a European salafist.[/QUOTE] The salafist movement is a fringe group of weirdoes who don't represent the vast majority of muslims and seek to advocate that islam is somehow incompatible with modernity.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;48620002]The salafist movement is a fringe group of weirdoes who don't represent the vast majority of muslims and seek to advocate that islam is somehow incompatible with modernity.[/QUOTE] Besides they also have some rather shady members and rumor goes that they actually support ISIS.

[QUOTE=Awesomecaek;48618907]Except it's well known they won't be a burden. [I]Some[/I] might need benefits, for [I]some[/I] amount of time but there's enough statistical evidence that the immigration from these areas to west Europe is a net economical benefit. Czech Republic's population in particular is growing older and would be shrinking if it weren't for emigration. The analysis of our demographics led to openly stated conclusion that Czech Republic does rely on emigration for sustaining positive economical growth and the current social standard of living. [/QUOTE] Why exactly is a shrinking population a bad thing, past lower [B]total [/B]gdp wich does not really equate to lower wages? On the contrary, fewer qualified people looking for employment + same ammount of employees = higher wages, at least that's what offer and demand would dictate to happen. And if the migrations would be a net economical benefit to Czech Rep., should that be the only decisive criteria to be taken in consideration?

[QUOTE=Awesomecaek;48616184]Honestly I am feel very ashamed about this bullshit but I would blame it on our very lively populist movement and rather "fuck you, get your own" attitude of the populace that is made largely of either right wing liberals who are extremely worried about these BENEFIT LEECHES, and then the left wing conservatives who might not be that worried about the whole helping hand thing but are VERY CONCERNED ABOUT THESE MUSLIM TERRIRIST TENDENCIES. Pretty much all our self respecting sociologists are trying to calm people down, and solid part of the populace is at the very least indifferent about the immigrants, but at political level as well as when it comes to the loud far right minorities, the immigrants are a scrapegoat for everything. I find this doubly shameful if one considers how important role immigration played in Czech history on multiple occasions.[/QUOTE] There is no need to play the distraught liberal here. What you said is not true here, no one cares about their religion, or considers them potential terrorists, and they are not scapegoats for anything. Their behavior is unacceptable though, and people are tired of that. They refuse most help given to them, don't want to get registered, and require constant police attention (like yesterday a huge group started walking to Wien across the city and on a busy highway. And yes we mostly got them off and sent buses for them to get them to the border but they keep coming so we have to do this regularly and disregard Austria) The economic argument you posted below falls short on that a real economist would make a difference between employed and unemployed people and the majority would most likely fall into the second group for reasons stated in a post above, and because of the huge language barrier. The point you miss is that even if the quota system would get implemented, it would not benefit the migrants because they simply don't want to live in the Czech Republic, or Hungary, or any country other than Germany and maybe Scandinavia. There is a reason why almost every one of them denies registration (so that they won't get sent back to here) and doesn't stop even in relatively developed and safe places like the V4 countries or even Austria.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;48620002]The salafist movement is a fringe group of weirdoes who don't represent the vast majority of muslims and seek to advocate that islam is somehow incompatible with modernity.[/QUOTE] You don't think Islam is incompatible with modernity? Like all abrahamic religions, it's certainly incompatible with liberalism, democracy, and social progress. Muslims are rabidly conservative even in places like Turkey, which is the problem with them as a non-integrated voting bloc in Europe. Should they also not achieve economic success either and form a sort of poverty stricken underclass community, the likelihood of their unemployed young men fighting in some war is higher. That's what makes all the European volunteers for ISIS distressing. ISIS openly capitalizes on this too. If you read about their feuds with old guard terrorists like Maqdisi, it's apparent that they're an upstart that's purposely finding a base in disenfranchised European immigrants in order to solidify their leadership as jihadists. Unlike Al-Qaeda, ISIS works as an inversion of the euro far right, which is what makes them so much more effective and dangerous. After all, in comparison, nobody really hears about europeans joining al-nusra. This new generation of Salafists is tapping into something real, there's no use writing them off as a non-threatening fringe minority. If they were, the Pentagon wouldn't have a paper about using them to destabilize Syria. Besides, it's not like Arab experience with modernity has gone so well. Not exactly their fault, but it's just the way it is. The average Arab would probably just think of modernity as consisting of failed Arab nation-states, Israel, western-sponsored gulf monarchies, and lots of foreign intervention.

[QUOTE=godfatherk;48620148]Why exactly is a shrinking population a bad thing, past lower [B]total [/B]gdp wich does not really equate to lower wages? On the contrary, fewer qualified people looking for employment + same ammount of employees = higher wages, at least that's what offer and demand would dictate to happen. And if the migrations would be a net economical benefit to Czech Rep., should that be the only decisive criteria to be taken in consideration?[/QUOTE] Shrinking population is considered bad because as the whole population get older, fewer working-age people is there to sustain a constantly growing social security system. As for whether the migration would benefit the affected country (in economical sense), that depends on how many of the migrants can get employed (this is a bit of oversimplification but essentially true).