Figured this game's garnered enough controversy here that I'd give it it's own thread instead of just putting it in the TB thread.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/glJo3lH.jpg[/img]
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYLpomTvDcQ[/media]
Mind you he is a bit bias, he has been hired by the company in the past to cast some of their games at least one event.
Not saying it makes his argument any less legitimate, just throwing that out there for additional consideration.
[editline]16th February 2015[/editline]
Personally, I think this games business model is absolute garbage. Not even talking about the day 1 DLC (which is a slap in the face to PC gamers more than anyone, even if it IS all cosmetic), rather I'm talking about the sheer upfront cost of the game. With all the content that comes with the game, it is not worth $60, not by a long shot. I would pay maybe $30 for this game, and that's generous considering I payed only $20 for Natural Selection a long time ago and that game has modding support.
And then the $15 monsters. Seriously. It's like Turtle Rock doesn't even know that they used to work with Valve. What were TF2 updates? What were L4D updates (which they actually made)?
[QUOTE=ForgottenKane;47152179]Mind you he is a bit bias, he has been hired by the company in the past to cast some of their games at least one event.
Not saying it makes his argument any less legitimate, just throwing that out there for additional consideration.[/QUOTE]
Which games? I thought their last game was Left4Dead (1)?
The gameplay looks way to shallow, I think the game's gonna just die out in a few months.
E: I'm dumb.
[QUOTE={TFS} Rock Su;47152218]It was CS:GO?[/QUOTE]
Turtle Rock isn't associated with Valve anymore.
So there's this [i]thing[/i] with games that give you options to purchase additonal gameplay elements that don't give you a direct competitive advantage, but that will give you more tactical options and, through learning-by-doing, also lets you figure out the overall game more easily than players that don't purchase this stuff. Sometimes, but not necessarily, puts that content behind a grindwall.
I mean stuff like League of Legends champions, Hearthstone cards or these Evolve hunters and would contrast them to games like Valve's multiplayer titles that, for the most part, put players on an even gameplay-level and only sell cosmetics as additional content.
Is there a good term for that business model that doesn't just put it beneath a Pay2Win umbrella, which suggests a more direct power advantage like "+10%dmg if you pay 10 bucks"?
[QUOTE={TFS} Rock Su;47152218]It was CS:GO?[/QUOTE]
CS GO was developed by Valve in cooperation with Hidden Path (Defense Grid devs)
[QUOTE=RichyZ;47152350]id really like to see cosmetics integrated into 60 dollar games again instead of always being dlc
i remember playing through games again to get all the cool costumes and shit and now thats a thing of the past and its bullshit[/QUOTE]
Modern gaming in a nutshell. Insert credit card code for cheats(skins in this case).
[QUOTE=itisjuly;47152373]Modern gaming in a nutshell. Insert credit card code for cheats(skins in this case).[/QUOTE]
Real cheat codes aren't even a thing in most games nowadays, which is totally stupid. I know if I were a programmer on a game it would be trivially easy to code in an "infinite ammo" cheat or stupid little shit like that.
Hell, if I want to do infinite ammo, I gotta use Cheat Engine, and a lot of games have cheat protection these days!
[QUOTE=RichyZ;47152350]id really like to see cosmetics integrated into 60 dollar games again instead of always being dlc
i remember playing through games again to get all the cool costumes and shit and now thats a thing of the past and its bullshit[/QUOTE]
There [I]are [/I]free cosmetics built into the game.
[QUOTE=Protocol7;47152546]Real cheat codes aren't even a thing in most games nowadays, which is totally stupid. I know if I were a programmer on a game it would be trivially easy to code in an "infinite ammo" cheat or stupid little shit like that.
Hell, if I want to do infinite ammo, I gotta use Cheat Engine, and a lot of games have cheat protection these days![/QUOTE]
There are always trainers. Whoever, there's a risk for trojans. Nothing Security Essentials can't handle.
[QUOTE=0x0000000C;47152822]There are always trainers. Whoever, there's a risk for trojans. Nothing Security Essentials can't handle.[/QUOTE]
Problem with trainers is that due to how some of them work they are very prone to false positives.
The thing with the 60€ worth of day-one DLC is that for it to be justifiable, the base game has to be worth its price tag. If people don't feel they got their money worth by spending 50€ on the game (which of course is a matter of opinion to some extent), being offered additional paid DLC on day-one only adds insult to injury (yeah it's cosmetic but that's still content).
Then there's also the fact that these skins are overpriced as fuck from what I can see. 7€ for a monster skin? I mean I'm sure people would react a bit more positively to this pile of DLCs if at least they were priced fairly.
Looks pretty boring to be honest, if that's all there's to do in the game?
Certainly not worth the asking price, plus the DLC price.
I found some fun in the beta, but until this goes on sale or gets a Complete Edition I'm still holding off. And if there's no-one playing at that point, I guess I just won't, which is a shame because asymmetrical multiplayer is the dog's bollocks.
[QUOTE=Protocol7;47152546]Real cheat codes aren't even a thing in most games nowadays, which is totally stupid. I know if I were a programmer on a game it would be trivially easy to code in an "infinite ammo" cheat or stupid little shit like that.
[/QUOTE]
And they do, cheat codes are present in early stages of alpha testing, balancing etc. They just started cutting it out, for reasons I can't even begin to understand.
[QUOTE=RichyZ;47153240]not as many as there should be, clearly[/QUOTE]
The game is 60 fucking dollars, all the cosmetics should be free
True that, OR the game itself should be around $30, $50 tops.
Frankly I think no vanilla version of a game should be $60, save the 60+ prices for fuckin' special editions with a physical item. And yes, I blame brick-and-mortar stores for the inflation on digital titles, since if it's cheaper to download rather than buy a physical disc, GameStop would throw its toys out of the pram.
Speaking of discs, it boggles the mind now that they don't have them built like floppy discs, with a protective plastic shell to keep them safe from scratches caused by laggards and fools. Sure it would cost a bit more to manufacture, but it would mean that it would last longer before you'd need to have it replaced.
A game should be judged on whether the content in it warrants its sale for the asking price, not whether or not there's extra crap that you can buy. If a game is worth $60, it makes fuck-all difference whether there's extra cosmetics behind a pay-wall. Now in this case, it's a very fair point to say that this game probably isn't worth $60. But that's because of sparse gameplay content, not because your soldiers don't have enough hats. The flaws wouldn't be remedied at all by including skins.
I get that it can be a bit discouraging to not have access to 100% of the content the game has to offer for the asking price, but ffs it's cosmetic skins. That's really, really minor stuff. Why is this as controversial as it is?
I'm actually disappointed TB didn't take a stand against the DLC. "The gamechanging content isn't out yet" isn't a valid counterargument. This is probably the first time I've ever disagreed with him on something.
I feel like the way other games are trying to use the dlc system is a failed version of what MOBAS are successfully doing.
Evolve when you think about it is mainly PvP. Yes you can play against bots but we know that they aren't perfect and can get boring quick. Basically what you have here is a multiplayer only game. Now other games like LoL, Smite, and Dota are all multiplayer only games as well but are much better priced. What is great about being free to play is that you create a flow of fresh players. Some of these new players will invest nothing, just wanna check out the game, maybe play with their friends once or twice and move on. Sure you made no money from them, but you were able to both spread the word and give your existing player base someone new to play with. Then you have the players who invest a little, whether it be buying a $20-30 starter pack or just a few characters, which add to the player base. These people will play anywhere from a month to a lifetime, allowing for a healthy rotation of new players. People will continue to join the game because hey 20 bucks to get into it isn't that bad. It is a small investment that can essentially go a long way. Also by having a cheap introductory price you allow for a [B]steady[/B] flow of players, something absolutely needed if you want to stick around as a multiplayer only game.
Evolve fucked up in the beginning with the high price point. They are selling an effectively multiplayer only game at full price. We can argue about how other games starting at 60 bucks have more content, story, unlockables, etc but that's not the worst part. By having such a high investment wall you effectively cut out new players. Not only that but at 60 bucks, you only get access to multiplayer, the base characters and monsters. You still need to play to get new characters, weapons, and monsters, so it makes you wonder, where did your 60 dollars go? Of course unlockables give incentive to keep playing but explain that to someone new to Evolve who just wants to try it out. They aren't going to want to shell out that kind of money just to get a feel for the game that they might not like. And if they aren't all that invested to play now, what would make them come back way down the line when there is a price cut? Without a steady flow of players this game will surely die way sooner that it should. Which is really a shame cause of the neat concept but horrible horrible execution. It's sad when a game doesn't do well not because of its mechanics or inherent game qualities, but rather the sticker price put on the cover.
[QUOTE=Cpn Crunch21;47153548]...And if they aren't all that invested to play now, what would make them come back way down the line when there is a price cut? Without a steady flow of players this game will surely die way sooner that it should. Which is really a shame cause of the neat concept but horrible horrible execution. It's sad when a game doesn't do well not because of its mechanics or inherent game qualities, but rather the sticker price put on the cover.[/QUOTE]
I don't think they care much about longevity of Evolve. The design does not look like it was meant to last. They probably want to get as many sales of the game and dlc as they can, then discount it for second wave of cash grab and then make a sequel or something for more cashgrab.
[QUOTE=itisjuly;47153620]I don't think they care much about longevity of Evolve. The design does not look like it was meant to last. They probably want to get as many sales of the game and dlc as they can, then discount it for second wave of cash grab and then make a sequel or something for more cashgrab.[/QUOTE]
Alternatively, it could lead to players turned off by the high starting price point waiting for a sale and forgetting about the game during the waiting time, and post-launch content not selling well because the player base has died off quickly.
[QUOTE=Keychain;47153543]I'm actually disappointed TB didn't take a stand against the DLC. "The gamechanging content isn't out yet" isn't a valid counterargument. This is probably the time I've ever disagreed with him on something.[/QUOTE]
I think his point is that he can't really talk about the significance of the DLC when the DLC isn't out yet and thus we don't know what impact its contents will have.
I like how he was pointing out the non-DLC badness in it.
[QUOTE=General J;47153888]I like how he was pointing out the non-DLC badness in it.[/QUOTE]
Too many people focus on the DLC, which while incredibly silly is purely cosmetic so far. The game itself has plenty of issues that need to be addressed (and in this case were addressed, although personally I think progression that slowly gives you permanent buffs, even if small, can be somewhat unfair in a game like this), and it's often overlooked for the price and in-game store.
[QUOTE=itisjuly;47153620]I don't think they care much about longevity of Evolve. The design does not look like it was meant to last. They probably want to get as many sales of the game and dlc as they can, then discount it for second wave of cash grab and then make a sequel or something for more cashgrab.[/QUOTE]
TRS did not work [B]four years[/B] on a throwaway game, and to suggest so is completely fucking obtuse. Completely retarded.
It's clearly a huge investment on their part.
2k is another story entirely; their shitty practices are pretty plain to see. The game is overpriced, and the tiered pricing and the fact that Monster Race is a literal ripoff is incontrovertible.
However.
However.
The direct comparison to l4d is both bullshit (l4d is a fucking tech demo that l4d2 didn't even fully address, and frankly turtle rock's original vision was better than what valve finally delivered), and the complaint of "look at all this content l4d2 has" is utterly meritless. L4d/2 was fucking the same price point when it launched, and "all that content" is fucking provided by the community, not the home team. They still haven't fixed the fucked hit registration, they haven't fixed the fucked sound issues, they haven't fixed the packet issues, and the broken horde leashes. None of it. Now remember, this stuff was present from day one.
Secondly the "single player" and "multiplayer" in l4d is literally. the same thing. The versus aspect in l4d2 isn't remotely balanced, and is pretty troll-lols for the not serious, and Valve has done nothing to compensate in YEARS, so that argument is pretty much bs.
The complaints you CAN level easily are the game is overpriced for the amount 2K wants to charge; and there's a definite dearth of things to do in the missions themselves, TRS relied far far too much on "well everyone will be a player in a full game, even the bad guys, so it'll be interesting and fun"; there's simply not enough stuff for each side to while the monster is faffing around to try and get enough numnums to be a credible threat.
If 2K actually gave as much of a shit about this game as they do Borderlands; they would have charged 30 for what we have now, and another 30 for a literal doubling of what we have now in 9 months or so, and that includes double the modes and double the maps.
But they don't, and it's pretty clear from the mlgproyolo420 advertising that they expected some kind of social-based smokescreen to cover that up, and people are simply tired of all that noise.
The fact remains it's still a decent game when you have decent players, and it is rather ludicrously overpriced.
The only thing I have a problem with is the price. If it's still alive when it drops to $30 I'll probably pick it up.
[QUOTE=27X;47154097]The fact remains it's still a decent game when you have decent players, and it is rather ludicrously overpriced.[/QUOTE]
As somebody who was skeptical having played the Beta and watched gameplay videos of the different monsters during/after the beta, I've had a lot of fun with the game. Playing as the monster is so much more tense and enjoyable than watching gameplay footage, and playing with even dumb hunters can be fun given that they're at least somewhat familiar with the gameplay (considering there's ranked matchmaking, that's likely to be the case after a certain rank).
I'm also someone who feels that the DLC shitstorm is way overblown, considering peoples reactions to [B]skins[/B] of all things-preaching that skins should be unlockable ingame when in fact there are skins unlockable ingame-being one annoyance. I'm against locking game affecting content behind a paywall, but the unreleased, unfinished monsters and hunters you can purchase now are not going to be released for some time. I don't expect a small studio to make additional game content for free weeks/months past the delivery of their product. It would be nice, don't get me wrong, but it's not realistic to expect every company-not to mention a smaller company like Turtle Rock-to do so. However, I do think that the total package right now is entirely overpriced. I've seen people claim that 30usd for the game is overpriced, which I disagree with as that'd mean I'd be paying like £20 which is an incredible deal compared to a shitload of other games, but $120 for all of the dlc right now is a bad move on their half.
I've seen comparisons to L4D gameplay wise, and I just want to state that they're completely different. The only similarity is that you can have a team of four players killing shit. That's it. In terms of enjoyment, I've gotten three times as many hours out of Evolve in the past week as I ever did in the entirety of L4D2, having preordered L4D2.
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.
