• Ukraine says more soldiers killed in deadliest clashes in weeks
    17 replies, posted
[url]http://www.reuters.com/article/us-ukriane-crisis-casualties-idUSKBN15E0QS[/url] [QUOTE]The number of Ukrainian soldiers killed in an offensive by pro-Russian separatists over the past two days has risen to seven, Ukraine's military said on Monday, in the deadliest outbreak of fighting in the east of the country since mid-December. The clashes between Ukraine's military and the pro-Russian separatists coincide with U.S. President Donald Trump's call for better relations with Moscow that has alarmed Kiev while the conflict in its eastern region remains unresolved. The rebels began attacking government positions in the eastern frontline town of Avdiyivka on Sunday, Ukrainian officials said. Five soldiers were killed and nine wounded on Sunday and two more were killed on Monday, they said. Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko was due to discuss the state of the conflict on Monday in Berlin with German Chancellor Angela Merkel, who helped broker the Minsk ceasefire deal. Ukraine is anxious that international resolve to hold Russia to account may waver following the election of Trump, who has spoken of possibly lifting sanctions against Moscow. Trump spoke with Russian President Vladimir Putin on Saturday and the two men agreed to try to rebuild strained ties and to cooperate in Syria.[/QUOTE] While everyone was distracted by Trump, the seperatists began another offensive.
Oh please, even Germans finally starting to see that Poroshenko got his fair share of blame for current escalation. [url]http://www.sueddeutsche.de/politik/ostukraine-kiews-kalkuel-1.3356319[/url] His theater of victimisation will be soon over.
I'm surprise the EU hasn't stepped in and learn from their mistakes from Yugoslavia, I wonder if the US will step in?
[QUOTE=karimatrix;51759946]Oh please, even Germans finally starting to see that Poroshenko got his fair share of blame for current escalation. [url]http://www.sueddeutsche.de/politik/ostukraine-kiews-kalkuel-1.3356319[/url] His theater of victimisation will be soon over.[/QUOTE] [quote=google translate]According to Berlin, which is based, among other things, on reports from the OSCE mission in the Eastern Ukraine, Ukrainian military forces are currently trying to shift the front line in their favor. Apparently, they also accept the fact that tensions are increasing, according to the Berlin government. Behind them, according to some in the German administration, it might also be a question of tightening the situation so that plans by US President Donald Trump could be stopped to relax the sanctions. According to Berlin's interpretation, Poroshenko wants to do just about anything to prevent an end to the sanctions against Russia.[/quote] For anyone interested. Much as I dislike Poroshenko and the sanctions against Russia I do fear what Putin and Trump/Bannon might have planned for Europe. [editline]1st February 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Sims_doc;51759957]I'm surprise the EU hasn't stepped in and learn from their mistakes from Yugoslavia, I wonder if the US will step in?[/QUOTE] US troops are there atm but I wonder how long for. And its more of a token thing to "show support" IMO EU and Russia peacekeepers need to be deployed alongside each other - Russians won't fire on their own people and the presence of Europeans would hopefully stop the violence spreading. (European forces alone risks escalation to European troops vs Russia and Russians alone risks an occupation)
[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;51759967]IMO EU and Russia peacekeepers need to be deployed alongside each other[/QUOTE] Agreed, This is the only solution but it's unlikely given the current state of the EU and the RU wouldn't extend the hand without being asked first.
[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;51759967]For anyone interested. Much as I dislike Poroshenko and the sanctions against Russia I do fear what Putin and Trump/Bannon might have planned for Europe. [editline]1st February 2017[/editline] US troops are there atm but I wonder how long for. And its more of a token thing to "show support" IMO EU and Russia peacekeepers need to be deployed alongside each other - Russians won't fire on their own people and the presence of Europeans would hopefully stop the violence spreading. (European forces alone risks escalation to European troops vs Russia and Russians alone risks an occupation)[/QUOTE] Somehow you believe Putin is rational
[QUOTE=Shadow801;51759995]Somehow you believe Putin is rational[/QUOTE] I believe he's calculating but not necessarily rational. Rational would be for Russia and Europe to put aside their differences in the interest of trade, research and safety. It would be rational to get over some petty slight or I don't think many people are 100% rational and those who are would seem inhuman.
[QUOTE=karimatrix;51759946]Oh please, even Germans finally starting to see that Poroshenko got his fair share of blame for current escalation. [url]http://www.sueddeutsche.de/politik/ostukraine-kiews-kalkuel-1.3356319[/url] His theater of victimisation will be soon over.[/QUOTE] Please don't pretend like sharing an article 70% of the people here can't really read without google translation is a valid argument.
[QUOTE=Sims_doc;51759957]I'm surprise the EU hasn't stepped in and learn from their mistakes from Yugoslavia, I wonder if the US will step in?[/QUOTE] Trump's hell bent on getting cozy with Russia, so further intervention probably wouldn't be in favor of Ukraine. We'll see if current support is withdrawn or not.
[QUOTE=karimatrix;51759946]Oh please, even Germans finally starting to see that Poroshenko got his fair share of blame for current escalation. [URL]http://www.sueddeutsche.de/politik/ostukraine-kiews-kalkuel-1.3356319[/URL] His theater of victimisation will be soon over.[/QUOTE] [URL]https://osce.usmission.gov/emergency-situation-avdiivka-ukraine-statement-pc/[/URL] [IMG]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C3gsZatWAAAj0Fx.png:orig[/IMG] Thing is, it's not even neccessary to point out OSCE authority in this case. The Russian side has made use of an overwhelmingly large amount of MLRS Grad rockets that were (as usual) fired from the residential districts of Donetsk. They were firing the rockets until Ukraine had to shell the area where MLRS was deployed and risk civilian lives. This is why we don't like Russians, you might as well go to hell for deploying Grad among suburbs. The tactics Russians are using - lets for the sake of argument ignore who attacked first and with what motivation (if we argue about that, you won't get the main point) - these tactics of deploying units in middle of suburbs, then conducting fire until they just get shelled along with civilian infrastructure and houses around, this behavior is absolutely deplorable. This kind of behavior is one of big reasons why you're sanctioned. Some Russians seem surprised why many people in Ukraine were cheering when the military Tu-154 crashed earlier in Sochi. While any loss of life is sad, a lot of people would love to see your military defending your big cities by deploying the units in the civilian areas they are supposedly defending. It is absolutely disgusting and [i]will[/i] cause the enemy to shell the civilian buildings. [editline]1st February 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Sims_doc;51759957]I'm surprise the EU hasn't stepped in and learn from their mistakes from Yugoslavia, I wonder if the US will step in?[/QUOTE] The solution devised over past years was freezing the front line (and helping Ukraine to set up defenses and so on, rather than direct military help to retake the territory). There's this modern humanist idea that maybe you shouldn't rush straight ahead into a military conflict and try to resolve it using economic and other means first.
[QUOTE=BlackPhoenix;51760155][URL]https://osce.usmission.gov/emergency-situation-avdiivka-ukraine-statement-pc/[/URL] [IMG]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C3gsZatWAAAj0Fx.png:orig[/IMG] Thing is, it's not even neccessary to point out OSCE authority in this case. The Russian side has made use of an overwhelmingly large amount of MLRS Grad rockets that were (as usual) fired from the residential districts of Donetsk. They were firing the rockets until Ukraine had to shell the area where MLRS was deployed and risk civilian lives. This is why we don't like Russians, you might as well go to hell for deploying Grad among suburbs. The tactics Russians are using - lets for the sake of argument ignore who attacked first and with what motivation (if we argue about that, you won't get the main point) - these tactics of deploying units in middle of suburbs, then conducting fire until they just get shelled along with civilian infrastructure and houses around, this behavior is absolutely deplorable. This kind of behavior is one of big reasons why you're sanctioned. Some Russians seem surprised why many people in Ukraine were cheering when the military Tu-154 crashed earlier in Sochi. While any loss of life is sad, a lot of people would love to see your military defending your big cities by deploying the units in the civilian areas they are supposedly defending. It is absolutely disgusting and [i]will[/i] cause the enemy to shell the civilian buildings. [editline]1st February 2017[/editline] The solution devised over past years was freezing the front line (and helping Ukraine to set up defenses and so on, rather than direct military help to retake the territory). There's this modern humanist idea that maybe you shouldn't rush straight ahead into a military conflict and try to resolve it using economic and other means first.[/QUOTE] First of all. Link you provided leads to proposal from US representative based on information from "ukranian colleagues". Not the official statement of OSCE. Second, your logic is flawed, soo when there is claim of rebels attacking avdeevka you think it's just because they want to attack an innocent city. But when ukranians shell fuckload of donetsk it's somehow a justified retaliation cause obviously all rebels are forced to hide in civilian zone. Not to mention that apparently you have no idea of gray zones geography if you think all mlitias just gotta walk out into wide open. [editline]1st February 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Vodkavia;51760177]The theatre of victimization is the Kremlin believing they can waltz into Europe, bite off a chunk and believe they deserve anything less than sanctions and military retaliation.[/QUOTE] If you are calling ukranian forces attacking donbass a retaliation against Russia that means you forgot who is even living on donbass.
[QUOTE=karimatrix;51760275]But when ukranians shell fuckload of donetsk it's somehow a justified retaliation cause obviously all rebels are forced to hide in civilian zone.[/QUOTE] Whatever you say has no substance while the Russians and Russian-supported crews continue to fire away MLRS from populated cities. Any sort of attempts to baww and shift the blame to Ukraine won't work when your side is doing that kind of stuff. The fight on Avdiivka is just another battle of this war. The real problem is the scum that will fire MLRS from residential districts of Donetsk. Ukraine will have to respond by shelling those parts of the city eventually.
[QUOTE=karimatrix;51760275] Second, your logic is flawed, soo when there is claim of rebels attacking avdeevka you think it's just because they want to attack an innocent city. But when ukranians shell fuckload of donetsk it's somehow a justified retaliation cause obviously all rebels are forced to hide in civilian zone. Not to mention that apparently you have no idea of gray zones geography if you think all mlitias just gotta walk out into wide open.[/QUOTE] No his logic is perfectly fine. There's a pretty big difference between counter-battery fire against an opponent that deliberately hides behind civilians and a full on offensive with troops and artillery trying to take a city. [QUOTE=karimatrix] If you are calling ukranian forces attacking donbass a retaliation against Russia that means you forgot who is even living on donbass.[/QUOTE] The Russian army has been proven to be involved in the conflict. So yes, it's retaliation. Or does that not fit the "brave Russian patriots fighting back against the Ukrop nazis!!!" narrative the Russian media likes to nail into your head?
Karimatrix how many rubles do you get per week shilling for the kremlin
[QUOTE=Cructo;51760649]Why won't the Ukrainian government respect their right to self determination?[/QUOTE] So you suggest Ukraine should give away territory left and right to Russia? Russia already took Crimea and they're looking at Donetsk next. I mean it's kind of self-explanatory a country will defend itself from foreign agression.
[QUOTE=Ghost656;51760540]Or does that not fit the "brave Russian patriots fighting back against the Ukrop nazis!!!" narrative the Russian media likes to nail into your head?[/QUOTE] Once again this line makes me think of my question that I posted on another thread Humor me if anyone can, but what legitimatizes the Russian annexation and occupation of Ukrainian Crimea? Cause right now Russia is breaching two conditions it itself signed in 1994 via the Budapest Memorandum. No, you can't pull the "OH THAT WAS THE USSR, TOTALLY DIFFERENT" since the USSR collapsed in December 26th, 1991 1. The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America reaffirm their commitment to Ukraine, in accordance with the principles of the Final Act of the Conference on Security and Cooperation in Europe, to respect the independence and sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine. [B][I][U]COUGH[/U][/I][/B] Annexation of Crimea by the Russian Federation [B][I][U]COUGH[/U][/I][/B] 2. The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America reaffirm their obligation to refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine, and that none of their weapons will ever be used against Ukraine except in self-defence or otherwise in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations. Breached via the Mariupol incursion and various other instances (two of six of the conditions) [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances[/url] [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_weapons_and_Ukraine#Budapest_Memorandum[/url]
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