• Ukraine: rebels win east
    41 replies, posted
[t]http://static01.nyt.com/images/2014/05/01/world/JP-UKRAINE-2/JP-UKRAINE-2-superJumbo.jpg[/t] [QUOTE]Ukraine Says That Militants Won the East KIEV, Ukraine — It is by now a well-established pattern. Armed, masked men in their 20s to 40s storm a public building of high symbolic value in a city somewhere in eastern Ukraine, evict anyone still there, seize weapons and ammunition, throw up barricades and proclaim themselves the rulers of a “people’s republic.” It is not clear who is in charge or how the militias are organized. Through such tactics, a few thousand pro-Russian militants have seized buildings in about a dozen cities, effectively establishing control over much of an industrial region of about 6.5 million nestled against the Russian border. Day by day, in the areas surrounding the cities of Donetsk and Luhansk, pro-Russian forces have defied all efforts by the central government to re-establish its authority, and on Wednesday, Ukraine’s acting president conceded what had long been obvious: The government’s police and security officials had lost control. “Inactivity, helplessness and even criminal betrayal” plague the security forces, the acting leader, Oleksandr V. Turchynov, told a meeting of regional governors in Kiev. “It is hard to accept but it’s the truth. The majority of law enforcers in the east are incapable of performing their duties.” With Mr. Turchynov’s acknowledgment that a significant chunk of the country had slipped from the government’s grasp, the long-simmering conflict in Ukraine seemed to enter a new and more dangerous phase. Whether that amounts to the lasting dismemberment of Ukraine or hands control of the east to Russia and its president, Vladimir V. Putin, were among the many questions left unanswered after Mr. Turchynov delivered his stark assessment. Whatever the long-term effects, the militants’ seizure of symbolic buildings in cities throughout the country’s southeast is serving what analysts in Russia and the West say is Mr. Putin’s short-term goal of so disrupting normal life there that the pro-Russian separatists’ plans for a May 11 vote on autonomy from Kiev could trump Ukraine’s plans to hold a presidential election two weeks later. While Russia denies any role in stirring the unrest, Secretary of State John Kerry and others have flatly accused the Kremlin of sending operatives to the region to organize, equip and direct the Ukrainians who make up the pro-Russian militias. The presence of 40,000 Russian troops just over the border is also contributing to the instability, particularly as Russia has warned repeatedly that it will intervene in Ukraine if the safety of the ethnic Russians there is threatened, a sweeping claim that could justify an incursion at almost any time. But so far that has not been necessary. Through stealth and misdirection, and in defiance of Western sanctions, Russia has managed to achieve its immediate goal of what Western and Ukrainian officials believe is rendering Ukraine so chaotic that it cannot guarantee order, mend its teetering economy or elect new leaders to replace Mr. Turchynov and the acting government installed after the pro-Russian president, Victor F. Yanukovych, fled in February.[/QUOTE] [url]http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/01/world/europe/ukraine.html[/url]
The shit-storm thickens.
weeks later putin admits "it was us"
This must be the new age of Russian imperialism. Who needs armies when you can just throw weapons and funding at pro-Russian militants? [editline]1st May 2014[/editline] Bonus points for hiding behind civilian shields, making them virtually untouchable.
It's frustrating to see how inept the security forces are, unable to see that it is obviously a Russian invasion under the cover of 'increased autonomy'. EDIT: Damn autocorrect.
[QUOTE=Reshy;44691940]It's frustrating to see how inept the security forces are, unable to see that it is obviously a Russian invasion under the cover of [B]'increased anatomy'[/B].[/QUOTE]Russia confirmed for invading Ukraine with fat people.
[QUOTE=Reshy;44691940]It's frustrating to see how inept the security forces are, unable to see that it is obviously a Russian invasion under the cover of 'increased anatomy'.[/QUOTE] Doesn't have to be ineptitude, but unless you're 100% sure with hard, traceable evidence that it is what it is, you're in for a shitstorm if you do much about it. Hell, they're in for a shitstorm if it [I]is[/I] a Russian invasion and they do anything, too.
Tha fucks wrong with the people rating this winner?
[QUOTE=Mr. Someguy;44691907]This must be the new age of Russian imperialism. Who needs armies when you can just throw weapons and funding at pro-Russian militants? [editline]1st May 2014[/editline] Bonus points for hiding behind civilian shields, making them virtually untouchable.[/QUOTE] i don't see why people are condemning russia so badly, crimeans don't want to be a part of ukraine and anyone with eyes can see why, the only reason people are against it is because they're scared of the big bad russian bogeyman. whether or not russia is actually behind this shouldn't really matter if crimeans legitimately want to get out of ukraine, it's really no different from america ensuring the independence of israel it's like people have forgotten what the streets of kiev looked like not even a month ago
[QUOTE=Ashes;44691969]Tha fucks wrong with the people rating this winner?[/QUOTE] Eh, they won?
Tell that to the U.S.
[QUOTE=Kondor;44691970]i don't see why people are condemning russia so badly, crimeans don't want to be a part of ukraine and anyone with eyes can see why, the only reason people are against it is because they're scared of the big bad russian bogeyman. whether or not russia is actually behind this shouldn't really matter if crimeans legitimately want to get out of ukraine, it's really no different from america ensuring the independence of israel it's like people have forgotten what the streets of kiev looked like not even a month ago[/QUOTE] We're condemning them because they invaded Crimea, set up pro-Russian militias to help enforce their rule, then set up a show-referendum with 2 options ([I]Become Russian[/I] vs [I]Become Russian Later[/I]), in which Option 1 "won" by a massive landslide. And all the while, Ukrainian radio and television stationed were shut down and replaced by Russian stations, pro-Ukrainian activists were silenced, and voting papers were not sent to certain pro-Ukrainian communities. We condemn it because it wasn't "fair", it was a Russian take-over, we don't know what Crimea actually wanted because Russia was speaking for them the entire time. I also don't see how this relates to Israel in any way. The US never annexed Israel, in fact it's more the other way around if anything, Israel treats us like garbage and has betrayed us multiple times, but we still treat them with expensive new technologies for free whilst giving them monetary aid they don't need. As for Kiev, you could make that argument if you had proof that the EU was sending weapons and money to Euromaiden, but there's no evidence we did any such thing, only a handful of Right Sector guys that had old pistols and rifles. Now go look at the pro-Russian militants who are armed with AK rifles and Anti-Tank rockets, you don't just find that shit laying around.
[QUOTE=hippowombat;44692042]Tell that to the U.S.[/QUOTE] And EU. This effect the EU more than the US. [QUOTE=Mr. Someguy;44692050]Now go look at the pro-Russian militants who are armed with AK rifles and Anti-Tank rockets, you don't just find that shit laying around.[/QUOTE] Let us not forget all the vehicles they had acquired.
It's apparent that they want to be Russian, but are too lazy to move there, so they just occupy a building down the street and declare that Russia.
[QUOTE=Ashes;44691969]Tha fucks wrong with the people rating this winner?[/QUOTE] They're trolling or are plain dumb.
[QUOTE=Ashes;44691969]Tha fucks wrong with the people rating this winner?[/QUOTE] Some people support Russia. These people are obviously wrong, but an opinion is an opinion, even if you're an idiot.
This is pretty bullshit, sanctioning Russia isn't working and if they keep this up it'll only get worse
Today East Ukraine, tommorrow the World! Every country shall dread the day their russian minority suddenly starts wearing camo pattern.
[QUOTE=Kondor;44691970]i don't see why people are condemning russia so badly, crimeans don't want to be a part of ukraine and anyone with eyes can see why, the only reason people are against it is because they're scared of the big bad russian bogeyman. whether or not russia is actually behind this shouldn't really matter if crimeans legitimately want to get out of ukraine, it's really no different from america ensuring the independence of israel it's like people have forgotten what the streets of kiev looked like not even a month ago[/QUOTE] I don't really see people mentioned in these "People's Republic of x" incidents, though. Would be far more accurate to call it the "Few Dozen Anonymous Gunmen's Republic of x".
[QUOTE=MegaJohnny;44692541]I don't really see people mentioned in these "People's Republic of x" incidents, though. Would be far more accurate to call it the "Few Dozen Anonymous Gunmen's Republic of x".[/QUOTE] In general People's Republics don't get established through democratic process, so the name's consistent if anything.
[QUOTE=Kondor;44691970]it's really no different from america ensuring the independence of israel[/QUOTE] You sure that's something you want to use as a comparison for how this isn't fucked up?
[QUOTE=Vlevs;44692578]In general People's Republics don't get established through democratic process, so the name's consistent if anything.[/QUOTE] Pretty much. If you feel you have to put People's Republic or Democratic Republic in the name of your 'country', that probably means it's not actually true.
"Rebeles"? I guess you meant Russian army.
[QUOTE=Fire Kracker;44691824]weeks later putin admits "it was us"[/QUOTE] world gasps in shock over it for the next two days nothing happens after that
[QUOTE=Ivars;44693003]"Rebeles"? I guess you meant Russian army.[/QUOTE] Rebels backed by the Russian Army and reporting to the Russian Army.
[QUOTE=Riller;44692159]Some people support Russia. These people are obviously wrong, but an opinion is an opinion, even if you're an idiot.[/QUOTE] I don't support Russia but I support Russians (as much as any other people). If they don't want to be part of Ukraine then they should have the right to secede. Now the question that remains is: are those rebels actually supported by the local population?
[QUOTE=Kljunas;44693234]If they don't want to be part of Ukraine then they should have the right to secede.[/QUOTE] So now you think we should give land to the minorities, just because they don't like the country they live in? No, they should move where they want to, not give them land for free.
[QUOTE=Fire Kracker;44691824]weeks later putin admits "it was us"[/QUOTE] [video=youtube;kujo7V9m0gk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kujo7V9m0gk[/video] IT'S ME TURCHYNOV YOU BOUGHT IT EVEN MY TOP ADVISERS BOUGHT IT EVERY DAMN ONE OF YOU EASTERN EUROPEANERS WERE MADE FOOLS OF
[QUOTE=uzikus;44693432]So now you think we should give land to the minorities, just because they don't like the country they live in? No, they should move where they want to, not give them land for free.[/QUOTE] They were happy there until the government they voted for got violently ousted and replaced with a government no one voted for which started passing laws against the minority in question. It is a government they did not vote for, which is taking the country in a direction they don't want to go and is passing laws giving them a hard time. Hardly democratic. The East certainly shouldn't go to Russia but I believe the people there certainly have the right to choose their government. Measures should have been taken to ensure the people had fair representation before laws were passed and they felt alienated.
[QUOTE=Kljunas;44693234]I don't support Russia but I support Russians (as much as any other people). [B]If they don't want to be part of Ukraine then they should have the right to secede.[/B] Now the question that remains is: are those rebels actually supported by the local population?[/QUOTE] That's an incredibly dumb way of thinking, if so then we could might as well split up [B]every country in the world[/B] to smaller ones for each minority that exists. They live literally next to the border, if they love Russia they can go back. Yes, it would take time and money but if you want it so dearly that wouldn't be a problem.
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