Tom Scott Discusses the Problem With Renewable Energy - General

[video]https://youtu.be/5uz6xOFWi4A[/video]

I always thought it'd be a good idea if the goverment funded homes to have their own solar panels, then took 25% or any power that can't be stored and pumped it back into the grid, allowing people to buy cheap electricity when they needed it and slowly feeding money back into the system. I mean there's probably hundreds of reasons why this wouldn't work, but it'd basically turn cities and towns into solar farms.

Nuclear is the solution for the stability side really, considering it's safer than wind and solar in terms of deaths per KW/hr due to manufacturing pollution and labor costs.

[QUOTE=vladnag;50910433]I always thought it'd be a good idea if the goverment funded homes to have their own solar panels, then took 25% or any power that can't be stored and pumped it back into the grid, allowing people to buy cheap electricity when they needed it and slowly feeding money back into the system. I mean there's probably hundreds of reasons why this wouldn't work, but it'd basically turn cities and towns into solar farms.[/QUOTE] We do this in Australia. Government made incentives for people to get solar panels installed on their roofs. Any power generated by your solar panels that you don't use gets fed back into the grid, and subsidizes your energy bill.

I've always known about the problems with wind and solar not providing enough baseline energy, but this is such an interesting solution that I hadn't considered. Before, we'd adjust the supply to meet the demand. If all our electronics, heating systems, refrigeration systems, vehicles, and everything are "smart," then you can make wind and solar far more sustainable by adjusting demand instead of supply. You flip the variables. I like it. Of course, like he said, we'll always need hydroelectric/nuclear/big spinning chunks of steel in the supply side, but using smart technology and internet connectivity to adjust electrical demand just ever so slightly is a genius way to make wind and solar go so much further.

62 tubines, 150 MW? A coal power plant that produces 150MW is a pretty small coal power plant. Most of them produce at least few hundred if not thousands MW. Add that to your list of problems.

why not just produce an overall excess with all the uneeded power going to special data centers for scientific research and when theres a dip just shut down servers to meet demand.

[QUOTE=yodaman888;50913110]why not just produce an overall excess with all the uneeded power going to special data centers for scientific research and when theres a dip just shut down servers to meet demand.[/QUOTE] Or just use the excess power from half the wind turbines as the source of brake power in the other half

[QUOTE=yodaman888;50913110]why not just produce an overall excess with all the uneeded power going to special data centers for scientific research and when theres a dip just shut down servers to meet demand.[/QUOTE] Its no where near as simple as that, the grid is a very sensitive system, you can't just route power anywhere you'd like (Unless your facility is right nextdoor to a plant), and keeping all the plants in synch guarantees no brown-outs from out of phase turbines.

[QUOTE=LoneWolf_Recon;50913238]Its no where near as simple as that, the grid is a very sensitive system, you can't just route power anywhere you'd like (Unless your facility is right nextdoor to a plant), and keeping all the plants in synch guarantees no brown-outs from out of phase turbines.[/QUOTE] sure why not put the centers near the powerplants? its definatly more feasible than having to engineer all new cars with all new tires on all new roads to try and sell back power especially for countries like america that have issues maintaining ordinary road systems

[QUOTE=Wunce;50912708]We do this in Australia. Government made incentives for people to get solar panels installed on their roofs. Any power generated by your solar panels that you don't use gets fed back into the grid, and subsidizes your energy bill.[/QUOTE] Meanwhile, here in Spain, you have to pay extra taxes to produce your own solar power, give for free any surplus to the system, and on top of that you got to pay a "toll" for the privilege of being connected to the grid as a backup, in case your supply doesn't match your demand. After the last law they passed, an association estimated that it will take the average person around 31 years of operation to recoup their investment, and by then obsolescence and depreciation probably would have forced you to renew most of your equipment, turning this option into a money sink. Also, if you fail to notice the authorities of your installation, you face sanctions of up to 60 million euros, [U][I]twice as much as you would get for a leaking nuclear plant[/I][/U], making jury-rigged, fallout-style, DIY fission power a much more viable option in case you're planning to set up shop without telling the government.

[QUOTE=Tidusete;50913387]Meanwhile, here in Spain, you have to pay extra taxes to produce your own solar power, give for free any surplus to the system, and on top of that you got to pay a "toll" for the privilege of being connected to the grid as a backup, in case your supply doesn't match your demand. After the last law they passed, an association estimated that it will take the average person around 31 years of operation to recoup their investment, and by then obsolescence and depreciation probably would have forced you to renew most of your equipment, turning this option into a money sink. Also, if you fail to notice the authorities of your installation, you face sanctions of up to 60 million euros, [U][I]twice as much as you would get for a leaking nuclear plant[/I][/U], making jury-rigged, fallout-style, DIY fission power a much more viable option in case you're planning to set up shop without telling the government.[/QUOTE] Yeah, our laws are so much bullshit it's not even funny.

Your electric car battery is not a solution to this problem. The amount of lithium that would be necessary to even REMOTELY compensate for grid needs would be staggering. Plus, your car battery is your property and it suffers real wear and tear from use. Molten salt batteries are the solution. Lower energy density than lithium, but for grid storage, who cares? They are robust, but can't be allowed to discharge completely. They need power input semi regularly in order to maintain their molten state, which isn't a problem for solar or wind power sources. Best of all? You can make them from sodium and sulfur. Not only are these two resources abundant to the point of being described by the USGS as having global reserves in the "near limitless" range (USGS will measure beyond trillions of tons, so when they say "near limitless" they mean it), but they are also globally distributed. Enough nations have them that you can't really have a single nation successfully monopolize them. Especially with, you know, the ocean being a major source of both. Before anyone goes "well why haven't they done it?": A number of places have already done it, or are actively working on it. The solution to grid storage was here a long time ago. Ford made this shit in the 1960's for an electric car. ...wait shit, I guess in a way your electric car IS the solution to this problem. Just, you know, not like he meant.

[QUOTE=vladnag;50910433]I always thought it'd be a good idea if the goverment funded homes to have their own solar panels, then took 25% or any power that can't be stored and pumped it back into the grid, allowing people to buy cheap electricity when they needed it and slowly feeding money back into the system. I mean there's probably hundreds of reasons why this wouldn't work, but it'd basically turn cities and towns into solar farms.[/QUOTE] This actually does work, but requires replacing the entire grid with what's typically called a smart grid, a different way of thinking about the grid which serves to decentralize power delivery and make every connection two-way. This essentially allows any node on the grid to consume or provide, based on its needs at any given time. The infrastructure for this is a bitch, but it's happening!

[QUOTE=GunFox;50913520]Your electric car battery is not a solution to this problem. The amount of lithium that would be necessary to even REMOTELY compensate for grid needs would be staggering. Plus, your car battery is your property and it suffers real wear and tear from use. Molten salt batteries are the solution. Lower energy density than lithium, but for grid storage, who cares? They are robust, but can't be allowed to discharge completely. They need power input semi regularly in order to maintain their molten state, which isn't a problem for solar or wind power sources. Best of all? You can make them from sodium and sulfur. Not only are these two resources abundant to the point of being described by the USGS as having global reserves in the "near limitless" range (USGS will measure beyond trillions of tons, so when they say "near limitless" they mean it), but they are also globally distributed. Enough nations have them that you can't really have a single nation successfully monopolize them. Especially with, you know, the ocean being a major source of both. Before anyone goes "well why haven't they done it?": A number of places have already done it, or are actively working on it. The solution to grid storage was here a long time ago. Ford made this shit in the 1960's for an electric car. ...wait [b]shit[/b], I guess in a way your electric car IS the solution to this problem. Just, you know, not like he meant.[/QUOTE] Aside from the bolded word, it sounds like you're channeling Tom Scott like he's your spirit animal.

Dang, didn't realize that the actual kinetic energy of turbines was an essential part of having an adaptive energy grid. Makes complete sense but I didn't realize that it's one of the reasons we can't yet completely rely on renewable energy.

[QUOTE=Silly Sil;50913052]62 tubines, 150 MW? A coal power plant that produces 150MW is a pretty small coal power plant. Most of them produce at least few hundred if not thousands MW. Add that to your list of problems.[/QUOTE] I believe off shore wind farms are able to be denser with more power generation so it's always dependent on location Plus, even the most advanced coal plants are still relatively dirty. [editline]19th August 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=StrawberryClock;50917433]Dang, didn't realize that the actual kinetic energy of turbines was an essential part of having an adaptive energy grid. Makes complete sense but I didn't realize that it's one of the reasons we can't yet completely rely on renewable energy.[/QUOTE] We can lean on them pretty heavily though, certainly more so than we are. The fill for that gap needs to be done by nuclear in my opinion, or molten salt batteries but there will always need to be a fill for the gap left over.

windmills are obsolete with too many negatives (no power if wind too slow, too fast, too hot (cooling the controlling systems or too cold is issue too (icing, heating the controlling systems) can't wait for vortex generators to replace most of them ... nuclear energy is the only source next to geothermal with 24/7/360 (5 days for maintenance) reliability

[QUOTE=Dwarden;50917694]windmills are obsolete with too many negatives (no power if wind too slow, too fast, too hot (cooling the controlling systems or too cold is issue too (icing, heating the controlling systems) can't wait for vortex generators to replace most of them ... nuclear energy is the only source next to geothermal with 24/7/360 (5 days for maintenance) reliability[/QUOTE] How are windmills obsolete if they aren't being replaced by something else right now?

[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;50918309]How are windmills obsolete if they aren't being replaced by something else right now?[/QUOTE]Most infrastructure across the U.S. is obsolete because its ancient and decrepit, with upgrades and improvements possible but nobody willing to fork out for them. They're not being replaced, but they're obsolete. Being replaced has no relation to something being obsolete. Its about being out of date.