So their main argument is "It's against the rules, so it's bad." I see no reason why we cannot change the rules to give people in this situation the ability to be on the right side of the law. Just because something is the law now, does not mean we have to stick to that law.
Its either loykey racism or fox news misinformation that causes people to be anti DACA.
What's rather sad is that these people that are against it likely have [I]no[/I] idea how broken their immigration system is, seeing as how many of them talk about "legalizing their immigration status" like it's no biggie. They're being forcefed these lies by politicians looking to capitalize on their latent fear of "the other" and are parroting it for themselves without checking it at all. Some of these people ought to have their legal status stripped and then use legal channels to do the "legalizing" they harp about and they'll quickly change their fucking tune.
The US immigration system is phenomenally broken - kicking out the DACA recipients doesn't fix the fact that processing times have gone into [I]years[/I] for some categories of visas and obtaining green cards is a long, arduous process.
I like how the starting argument is "it's illegal" but when the woman explains she's living and working under a legal framework (DACA! that's what it fucking is!) the argument shifts to "it's unconstitutional!"
You can't teach someone that they should care more about their fellow man than about a hundred-year-old scrap of paper, unfortunately
[QUOTE=latin_geek;53098081]You can't teach someone that they should care more about their fellow man than about a hundred-year-old scrap of paper, unfortunately[/QUOTE]
Some parts of the american population have a bizarre obssesion, bordering on flat out worship, of anything related to the Founding Fathers
[QUOTE=latin_geek;53098081]I like how the starting argument is "it's illegal" but when the woman explains she's living and working under a legal framework (DACA! that's what it fucking is!) the argument shifts to "it's unconstitutional!"
You can't teach someone that they should care more about their fellow man than about a hundred-year-old scrap of paper, unfortunately[/QUOTE]
You can't change the constitution!
[QUOTE=T553412;53098095]Some parts of the american population have a bizarre obssesion, bordering on flat out worship, of anything related to the Founding Fathers[/QUOTE]
the founding fathers themselves said that we should change the rules every now and again and that we shouldn't blindly worship old outdated paper, this included everything they wrote. Updating it to modern standards is basically a huge part of it.
another example of something outdated that still massively held up as if it works with todays standards: The Bible
[QUOTE=Alxnotorious;53097848]So their main argument is "It's against the rules, so it's bad." I see no reason why we cannot change the rules to give people in this situation the ability to be on the right side of the law. Just because something is the law now, does not mean we have to stick to that law.[/QUOTE]
Because conservative/republican ideology has nothing to do with making the world better, or helping people. From what I can tell, it's all about structure, appealing to existing hierarchies, and maintaining the status quo. In their minds, order and predictability are more important than the "difficult" work of having ideological principles centered around well-being of sentience, because that requires thinking about policy and perhaps even ignoring their deeply ingrained religious/philosophical beliefs.
[editline]31st January 2018[/editline]
Only conservatives can be so immoral, pig-fucking disgusting to raise their hands and happily advocate deporting someone brought here as a child just because they're from somewhere else or have brown skin or something?
[editline]31st January 2018[/editline]
Holy shit those men in the room seem to believe they are some sorts of principled intellectuals because they favor the written law over the kind of world we all know would be much better, one where people put other humans ethical value above the "value" of law or intrinsic "value" of power and control (the whole "if he's got it he earned it" or "if you want it go get it")
*Pays taxes, lived here since she was 2, speaks with a fluent American accent, has a family.*
[b]"DEPORT HER AND MAKE HER WORK FOR THE HONOR OF BEING AN 'MERICAN CITIZEN, SEPERATE HER FROM HER FAMILY IN A COUNTRY WE LITERALLY DESTROYED THROUGH NEOCOLONIALISM AND THE WAR ON DRUGS."[/b]
Fucking rigid plebian-prole labor robots manipulated at every level by the Republican party's brutality racist propaganda campaign that has been going on for decades about immigrantion. It's so fucking stupid, theres literally vast amounts of data proving immigrantion is a great thing for the economy.
[b]EDIT:[/b] Whats so fucking "funny and random (lol)" is that the fucking people who donate to and run the Republican party are completely responsible for the globalization of US labor jobs to minimize production costs and the destruction of the middle class.
LIKE WHAT THE FUCK, DON'T BLAME THE FUCKING BROWN PEOPLE.
[QUOTE=latin_geek;53098081]I like how the starting argument is "it's illegal" but when the woman explains she's living and working under a legal framework (DACA! that's what it fucking is!) the argument shifts to "it's unconstitutional!"
You can't teach someone that they should care more about their fellow man than about a hundred-year-old scrap of paper, unfortunately[/QUOTE]
I'm learning about the constitution in school right now and I'm pretty sure DACA is constitutional.
Unconstitutional is just a buzzword for people who've never read it.
Also they're so dumb that they don't think that the constitution translates to law. It [I]is[/I] the literal law of the land.
[QUOTE=Firetornado;53097869]Its either loykey racism or fox news misinformation that causes people to be anti DACA.[/QUOTE]
I refuse to believe that someone can look at a family that is from all appearances the embodiment of the American dream and point-blank say they need to be deported because DACA is unconstitutional. There has to be some underlying bile or hate that is fueling their reaction, and the excuse of legality is one they tell themselves as much as they tell everyone else.
[QUOTE=J!NX;53098148]the founding fathers themselves said that we should change the rules every now and again and that we shouldn't blindly worship old outdated paper, this included everything they wrote. Updating it to modern standards is basically a huge part of it.
another example of something outdated that still massively held up as if it works with todays standards: The Bible[/QUOTE]
funny enough, [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Trent"]even the bible was updated back in the 1600's[/URL]. still as much this was lowkey racism, it was also lowkey emotional extortion ("how could you deport this lovely baby").
dark times indeed.
[QUOTE=Raidyr;53098260]I refuse to believe that someone can look at a family that is from all appearances the embodiment of the American dream and point-blank say they need to be deported because DACA is unconstitutional. There has to be some underlying bile or hate that is fueling their reaction, and the excuse of legality is one they tell themselves as much as they tell everyone else.[/QUOTE]
What's particularly amusing to me is that some of those anti-Daca people are clearly not local, likely first generation immigrants themselves because they don't have entirely perfect North American accents. I'd love to see them shit bricks if someone played a prank on them, pretended to be ICE officers and showed up at their door, saying their citizenship has been rescinded (make up some bullshit about falsified paperwork) and they're going to be sent back to their home countries, but their children, being born Americans, can stay and will be go into the foster care system. They'd change their tune from "Tough shit, but 'dem's the rules" pretty fucking quick when it's their own families, I reckon.
As a new immigrant myself and talking with other immigrants, one thing I find very disturbing is how strong the anti-immigrant sentiment is from fucking immigrants themselves. "I've got mine, everyone else can fuck off, they're ruining it", indeed. :frown:
[QUOTE=snookypookums;53098279]What's particularly amusing to me is that some of those anti-Daca people are clearly not local, likely first generation immigrants themselves because they don't have entirely perfect North American accents. I'd love to see them shit bricks if someone played a prank on them, pretended to be ICE officers and showed up at their door, saying their citizenship has been rescinded (make up some bullshit about falsified paperwork) and they're going to be sent back to their home countries, but their children, being born Americans, can stay and will be go into the foster care system. They'd change their tune from "Tough shit, but 'dem's the rules" pretty fucking quick when it's their own families, I reckon.
As a new immigrant myself and talking with other immigrants, one thing I find very disturbing is how strong the anti-immigrant sentiment is from fucking immigrants themselves. "I've got mine, everyone else can fuck off, they're ruining it", indeed. :frown:[/QUOTE]
I can understand shitting on immigrants from a detached "I don't personally no anyone who has immigrated or benefitted from DACA" point of view. I'm not saying it's right, it's obviously still wrong, but I can see why someones ignorance would lead them down that path.
What I can't fathom is the utter hatred some of the people in this video have for this family. The old boomer fuck in the back is the worst, when he said she should be deported while her fiance was deployed then responded to Kimmel saying it might take 10 years to come back with "If thats what it takes". He didn't even hear the number. It could have been 10 months or 10,000 years for all it mattered to him. The important thing is that she needs to be gone immediately despite knowing no other country except America after being brought here at the age of two.
Watching actual, dyed in the wool Nazis march through a college campus is one sort of hate, and it's a hate that is immediately identifiable and genuinely scary. This is a whole nother level of hate. There is a deep sickness in the political right of this country that goes well beyond any questions about legality or constitutional basis or policy.
[QUOTE=Metaru;53098272]funny enough, [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Trent"]even the bible was updated back in the 1600's[/URL]. still as much this was lowkey racism, it was also lowkey emotional extortion ("how could you deport this lovely baby").
dark times indeed.[/QUOTE]
I dunno, seems less like emotional extortion/manipulation and more like the physical embodiment of the very ideology that guides people to protect DACA and other people suffering: empathy.
even the women who kimmel forcefully sit next to them was more or less not ok with daca. I mean its obvious it was all set up to trigger an emotional response from these people but even when you realise the woman in the back telling her "she lost her eye".... its a lost cause. these people aren't going to feel sympathy because for them sympathy is to merely say they should get deported and do the process like everyone else. lack of sympathy would be to shoot them on sight or get them arrested yippie kayiee
[QUOTE=Raidyr;53098299]I can understand shitting on immigrants from a detached "I don't personally no anyone who has immigrated or benefitted from DACA" point of view. I'm not saying it's right, it's obviously still wrong, but I can see why someones ignorance would lead them down that path.
What I can't fathom is the utter hatred some of the people in this video have for this family. The old boomer fuck in the back is the worst, when he said she should be deported while her fiance was deployed then responded to Kimmel saying it might take 10 years to come back with "If thats what it takes". He didn't even hear the number. It could have been 10 months or 10,000 years for all it mattered to him. The important thing is that she needs to be gone immediately despite knowing no other country except America after being brought here at the age of two.
Watching actual, dyed in the wool Nazis march through a college campus is one sort of hate, and it's a hate that is immediately identifiable and genuinely scary. This is a whole nother level of hate. There is a deep sickness in the political right of this country that goes well beyond any questions about legality or constitutional basis or policy.[/QUOTE]
That's exactly it - this level of insulation between different strata of society and enabling them to live like this, in isolation, to keep blaming it on "the other" is what's led to this point. A nation that's divided on religious, racial, income, god knows how many other lines. Where doing something for the betterment of everyone at a little cost to everyone is being a socialist, that get hyperbolized to being 'A stinking Commie'. It's like people think that they're going to be violated the moment they compromise or empathize. Healthcare for everyone? "The fuck should I pay for someone else's healthcare? Fuck you." It's selfishness, xenophobia and racism, masquerading under the fabric of "upholding the individual rights and freedoms of our founding fathers" ultra-nationalist bullshit that the republicans lather up their bullshit with.
That old coot doesn't give a shit about plenty of things. This problem isn't going to be fixed in his lifetime, that's for sure. It was created in it for certain, but the fuck does he care - he got his, fuck everyone else. None of those old farts there in that panel care - they'll be dead soon anyway, leaving those of us alive with multiple messes. They got theirs too.
There is only one thing stopping me from orchestrating a massive Internet hoax claiming the existence of a treaty between the US government and Indian tribes with a suicide pill clause that reverts control to the native peoples, which means that the rabid anti-immigration policies pushed by white racists burns them in the ass when I can then misleadingly tell them they're going to be deported back to Europe.
That one thing is the fact that I don't want to be responsible for a sudden explosion of hate crimes against natives, which would more or less [I]automatically[/I] happen if the hoax took off. And that's so fucked.
[QUOTE=elixwhitetail;53098402]There is only one thing stopping me from orchestrating a massive Internet hoax claiming the existence of a treaty between the US government and Indian tribes with a suicide pill clause that reverts control to the native peoples, which means that the rabid anti-immigration policies pushed by white racists burns them in the ass when I can then misleadingly tell them they're going to be deported back to Europe.
That one thing is the fact that I don't want to be responsible for a sudden explosion of hate crimes against natives, which would more or less [I]automatically[/I] happen if the hoax took off. And that's so fucked.[/QUOTE]
You do that and bet you dollars to dimes that militias everywhere will target and attack Native Americans to keep "America under the control of a white god" or some such bullshit. Bullshit is a powerful tool for everyone, which is what makes it dangerous. Not to mention these people don't really care much for the anti-immigrant argument at all. If they could declare what they'd prefer under anonymity who they'd be fine with immigrating to the country, I wouldn't be surprised if the majority came back as "None, we don't want anyone coming in" or "People from WASP countries". I mean, the head of state pretty much let that slip not too long ago. I'd love to see figures on whether there are any DACA's (if it's even possible) who are from the Western World at all. Odds are there aren't, which is why it's A-Okay to send them back, they don't see their lives as having any value so it's easily returned to the, ahem, "shitholes" they came from.
The republican Cycle:
Create Economic Hardship---->Blame Immigrants --------> Get elected promising to throw out immigrants and fix hardship------> Create Economic Hardship
They create their own problems and then use them as strawmen to get elected.
Like seriously, how many GOP senators are rich and or related to a large company in some way? The same companies that export our jobs overseas.
It's really crazy that these people don't even have the decency to shrink a bit in person. The fact that they're willing to look somebody in the face who was raised here their whole life and say "you should be deported" is just fucking nuts
[editline]1st February 2018[/editline]
[QUOTE=Raidyr;53098299]I can understand shitting on immigrants from a detached "I don't personally no anyone who has immigrated or benefitted from DACA" point of view. I'm not saying it's right, it's obviously still wrong, but I can see why someones ignorance would lead them down that path.
What I can't fathom is the utter hatred some of the people in this video have for this family. The old boomer fuck in the back is the worst, when he said she should be deported while her fiance was deployed then responded to Kimmel saying it might take 10 years to come back with "If thats what it takes". He didn't even hear the number. It could have been 10 months or 10,000 years for all it mattered to him. The important thing is that she needs to be gone immediately despite knowing no other country except America after being brought here at the age of two.
Watching actual, dyed in the wool Nazis march through a college campus is one sort of hate, and it's a hate that is immediately identifiable and genuinely scary. This is a whole nother level of hate. There is a deep sickness in the political right of this country that goes well beyond any questions about legality or constitutional basis or policy.[/QUOTE]
I also noticed how angry the black lady in the back row got when she was talking about healthcare. She was shaking when she said "I didn't have healthcare too and [I]I lost my eye![/I]", as if it was somehow the DACA girl's fault that America's healthcare system fucked her over and caused her to lose her eye? It was like, "my life sucked, so yours should too!"
[QUOTE=srobins;53098717]It's really crazy that these people don't even have the decency to shrink a bit in person. The fact that they're willing to look somebody in the face who was raised here their whole life and say "you should be deported" is just fucking nuts
[/QUOTE]
its because its ILLEGAL.
[QUOTE=skatehawk11;53098818]I believe this should be taken by an individual basis that is contingent on your value to the country. If you are contributing to the country; you can stay and earn your citizenship. Those who are not contributing anything should be deported.[/QUOTE]
This is extremely subjective and could easily be abused
[QUOTE=ThatSwordGuy;53098946]This is extremely subjective and could easily be abused[/QUOTE]
I mean, that is sort of how DACA works. It requires recipients to either be employed, in school, or in the military and protections must be revoked after one felony or three misdemeanor convictions. The only thing is they aren't entitled to full citizenship, simply not being summarily deported.
[QUOTE=skatehawk11;53098982]While dreamers (just a nice word for illegal immigrants)[/QUOTE]
What am I reading
[QUOTE=skatehawk11;53098982]Merit based immigration systems have been effective in many countries around the world. I don't think this will be an issue. What do you propose the solution to be? I find this better than blanket deporting all of them or keeping all of them.
[editline]31st January 2018[/editline]
Yes, because it is a right given to you at birth to be a citizen. While dreamers (just a nice word for illegal immigrants) are not entitled to the right whether they chose to or not. It's really that simple.
It is a privilege that we give them an opportunity at all. Legally, we could deport them any moment if DACA is not renewed.[/QUOTE]
Dreamers are those that were born in this country to illegal immigrants or were otherwise brought here as children and have thusly lived their entire lives here. They've either attended or graduated from an institution of higher learning and haven't violated any other immigration laws. It's not the same thing.
If people like that are getting deported, they're being sent to a country they've never lived in, in many cases they don't speak Spanish themselves, and would likely have their lives ruined as a result. It's simply an act of malice for something they had no responsibility for.
Would you not agree that's a terrible thing to do to those that have otherwise lived their entire lives as Americans -- punishing them for something their parents were responsible for, even after proving themselves as upstanding citizens?
[QUOTE=RenegadeCop;53099027]Is your moral compass entirely dictated by laws, regardless of how arbitrary they are?[/QUOTE]
Of course not, "it's the law so it must be right" is just his logical fallacy of choice because he doesn't want to admit his true reasoning.
[QUOTE=skatehawk11;53098818]It was not your country to begin with, even if it was not your choice to come.[/QUOTE]
You heard him, the Algonquians and Iroquois can stay, everybody else back to Europe.
[QUOTE=T553412;53098095]Some parts of the american population have a bizarre obssesion, bordering on flat out worship, of anything related to the Founding Fathers[/QUOTE]
The interesting thing is they know nothing about the founding fathers.
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