What it means to be theist / deist / atheist / religious - General

So in the Atheists in politics thread I seem to have dragged it off to a "what x means" direction. So usually things have a very clear and defined idea as to what they are. Sometime things don't. I generally tend to notice that when it comes to theism, deism, and atheism people tend to argue over the meaning of the terms. What do they mean to you facepunch? I believe my views were expressed pretty well in the other thread but for those that haven't read it: Atheism - You don't believe in a god, deity, higher power, or any multiple of those. You can still be spiritual but you do not believe that any being created the universe or performs miracles. I myself am atheist Theist - You believe in a god, deity, or higher power (or any multiple). You believe the being(s) created the universe / Earth and believe that It / They interfere in our lives and perform miracles. Theists can include people in organized religions and those that aren't. Deist - You believe in a god, deity, or higher power (or any multiple). You believe the being(s) created the universe / Earth, but do not believe that It / They still interfere in our lives. They created the universe and left it to itself I also believe that all of these can be considered a religious view. So facepunch, what are your views? EDIT: Also agnostics (can we change the title?). I think that a true agnostic is someone that questions their faith at any point and time and has nothing to do with theism (as I think you believe or you don't). I think that everyone is agnostic, unless mentally ill (and you KNOW there is / isn't a god). I think many self identified agnostics confuse agnostic with theism / deism.

Deist, actually. If there is a god, who has the power to create and destroy [I]universes[/I], you think that he gives a single damn what we think?

I assume for your description of an Atheist being allowed to still be spiritual you mean like, they don't believe in God(s), but they could still believe in luck/karma/something along those lines. I wouldn't disagree with that, but I would usually find it weird that someone would reject religion but still believe in "hocus pocus". I would also usually say that Atheism is a lack of religious views, rather than another religious view that is the complete opposite of all other religious views (as in, all other religions believe in at least some form of deity/creator, whereas atheists don't).

[QUOTE=thrawn2787;32446755]Atheism - You don't believe in a god, deity, higher power, or any multiple of those. You can still be spiritual but you do not believe that any being created the universe or performs miracles. I myself am atheist[/QUOTE] You can be an atheist yet still believe in a higher power.

There's also agnostic which is saying you don't know if there's a god/gods or not, and apatheist which is someone who thinks it's irrelevant and/or doesn't care if there is or not.

[QUOTE=thrawn2787;32446755] Also agnostics (can we change the title?). I think that a true agnostic is someone that questions their faith at any point and time and has nothing to do with theism (as I think you believe or you don't). I think that everyone is agnostic, unless mentally ill (and you KNOW there is / isn't a god). I think many self identified agnostics confuse agnostic with theism / deism.[/QUOTE] I do agree with some of this. I think of myself as an Atheist, but I want to be logical and the logical part of me says that being an Agnostic is the real way to go, since we really can never know. But then when I think about it like that, I think "If we can really never know whether a deity really exists, then why give time believing in a deity or contemplating whether they are real or not". An Agnostic as far as I know is someone who accepts that whether there is a God(s) or not, we can never truly know.

[QUOTE=DainBramageStudios;32446862]You can be an atheist yet still believe in a higher power.[/QUOTE] May I ask, how? and where the fuck did my automerge go?

[QUOTE=The DooD;32446900]I do agree with some of this. I think of myself as an Atheist, but I want to be logical and the logical part of me says that being an Agnostic is the real way to go, since we really can never know. But then when I think about it like that, I think "If we can really never know whether a deity really exists, then why give time believing in a deity or contemplating whether they are real or not". An Agnostic as far as I know is someone who accepts that whether there is a God(s) or not, we can never truly know.[/QUOTE] I guess I should clarify a little on my agnostic views. Being agnostic to me is asking about knowing, where as the debate of theism is about believing. Hence why I think when asked about believing in a higher power you say "I'm agnostic" it doesn't make much sense. So I'm an agnostic atheist and I guess you are too. Again I feel that everyone is agnostic (if you've ever questioned your belief in a higher power ever)

theism/atheism/deism have to do with [B]belief[/B] and gnosticism/agnosticism have to do with [B]knowledge[/B]

[QUOTE=The DooD;32446914]May I ask, how? and where the fuck did my automerge go?[/QUOTE] "A higher power" is a vague idea that may not necessarily be a deity. For example, an Atheist might believe that "good and evil" are actual things that exist.

I'm a mixture of a deist and theist. I believe in aliens, so I don't see why the hell they'd care so much about Earth when there's a whole universe to tend to.

[QUOTE=DainBramageStudios;32447082]"A higher power" is a vague idea that may not necessarily be a deity. For example, an Atheist might believe that "good and evil" are actual things that exist.[/QUOTE] I don't think that really qualifies as a higher power, unless you mean some people actually think good and evil are actual things (even if outside the universe, as opposed to thinking of them as... personalities I guess?) controlling people to do good / bad things. [quote]theism/atheism/deism have to do with belief and gnosticism/agnosticism have to do with knowledge[/quote] [quote]Being agnostic to me is asking about [B]knowing[/B], where as the debate of theism is about [B]believing[/B].[/quote] Not sure if you were just repeating what I said or thought that that isn't what I said [quote] I'm a mixture of a deist and theist. I believe in aliens, so I don't see why the hell they'd care so much about Earth when there's a whole universe to tend to. [/quote] Do you believe that aliens just exist somehwere or that aliens created us / the universe? I'd probably qualify the latter as deist and the former as potentially atheist (but again that's just what I'd group you as)

[QUOTE=Jad Hinto;32447158]I'm a mixture of a deist and theist. I believe in aliens, so I don't see why the hell they'd care so much about Earth when there's a whole universe to tend to.[/QUOTE] well earth is pretty and most planets are fuck-ugly and dead [editline]23rd September 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=thrawn2787;32447161]Not sure if you were just repeating what I said or thought that that isn't what I said[/QUOTE] I didn't read your post before replying but yes you're correct

[QUOTE=thrawn2787;32447161]I don't think that really qualifies as a higher power, unless you mean some people actually think good and evil are actual things (even if outside the universe, as opposed to thinking of them as... personalities I guess?) controlling people to do good / bad things.[/QUOTE] Yeah. Some people believe that morality is an actual thing embedded in the fabric of the Universe, like a physical constant. You might disagree, but it's not incompatible with a lack of belief in Gods.

[QUOTE=DainBramageStudios;32447194]Yeah. Some people believe that morality is an actual thing embedded in the fabric of the Universe, like a physical constant. You might disagree, but it's not incompatible with a lack of belief in Gods.[/QUOTE] Eh I think that's more of a spiritual thing Again this thread is about what [B]you [/B]think and how you define these groups as they don't seem to be terribly well defined. So it's fine to disagree and that's actually the point!

Theist for me. I don't feel like getting into an argument right now so I'll just leave it at that.

[QUOTE=DainBramageStudios;32447082]"A higher power" is a vague idea that may not necessarily be a deity. For example, an Atheist might believe that "good and evil" are actual things that exist.[/QUOTE]Related to this, religions don't have to be theist. See Buddhism, some forms of Christianity, some Neopaganism, and so on. [editline]23rd September 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=The DooD;32446900]I do agree with some of this. I think of myself as an Atheist, but I want to be logical and the logical part of me says that being an Agnostic is the real way to go, since we really can never know. But then when I think about it like that, I think "If we can really never know whether a deity really exists, then why give time believing in a deity or contemplating whether they are real or not". An Agnostic as far as I know is someone who accepts that whether there is a God(s) or not, we can never truly know.[/QUOTE]You're more of an [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignosticism]Ignostic[/url] then.

[QUOTE=ECrownofFire;32447366]Related to this, religions don't have to be theist. See Buddhism, some forms of Christianity, some Neopaganism, and so on.[/QUOTE]How exactly do you have a sect of christianity that doesn't believe in the Abrahamic god or Jesus? That really does not make any sense to me.

I myself am a aptheist. I have no personal religious/non-religious beliefs I am willing to defend, and simply get on with life as in either case religion or god has little relevance in my day to day life. For example if I had to convert to a certain religion for an incentive, I would do it and engage myself with it as little as possible with the best outcome created for me.

[QUOTE=thrawn2787;32447161] Not sure if you were just repeating what I said or thought that that isn't what I said Do you believe that aliens just exist somehwere or that aliens created us / the universe? I'd probably qualify the latter as deist and the former as potentially atheist (but again that's just what I'd group you as)[/QUOTE]Nah, they just exist. As far as I'm concerned we just hitched a ride on a meteor and was a one in a billion chance. Up there with my crazy beliefs is the fact I don't think gods are benevolent or malevolent, they just take and give to keep the balance of the universe. Karmic balance basically. I can also admit that I may be wrong in my beliefs. Who knows, maybe the Mormons are right, maybe Islam is right, and maybe atheists are right. It's why I respect all creeds. [sp]Basically I'm a Hellenistic Neo-Pagan with some slight differences from the common belief system of it.[/sp]

[QUOTE=Nerts;32447408]How exactly do you have a sect of christianity that doesn't believe in the Abrahamic god or Jesus? That really does not make any sense to me.[/QUOTE] Base it off the teachings of Jesus I'm guessing. Don't make him out to be god's son but just live your life by what he taught? I could be wrong. I know Thomas Jefferson wrote a book on it. [quote]Related to this, religions don't have to be theist. See Buddhism, some forms of Christianity, some Neopaganism, and so on.[/quote] Which is why some classify it as a philosophy and not a religion. Some people do classify it as a religion though. Also found an interesting read on a Buddhist site that covers this (and they really never come to a clear answer) [url]http://www.buddhistchannel.tv/index.php?id=8,2859,0,0,1,0[/url] [quote]I myself am a aptheist. I have no personal religious/non-religious beliefs I am willing to defend, and simply get on with life as in either case religion or god has little relevance in my day to day life.[/quote] Again see my thoughts on agnostics (kind of). Either you believe or you don't. Answering "I don't care" to a yes or no question ("do you believe in a deity or deities") isn't really an answer Anyways feeling I should stop posting in this thread for awhile [sp]so I will[/sp]

I believe everyone is secretly agnostic, that is being either a theist or atheist yet doubting your beliefs at least once. I myself have had phases where I was theist, and phases where I was atheist but I'll never know for sure, so I prefer to sit on the fence and label myself as Agnostic.

[QUOTE=The DooD;32446819]I would also usually say that Atheism is a lack of religious views, rather than another religious view that is the complete opposite of all other religious views (as in, all other religions believe in at least some form of deity/creator, whereas atheists don't).[/QUOTE] Most dictionaries use OP's definition first. [url]http://www.onelook.com/?w=atheist&ls=a[/url]

I am a Deist, though I have thought about everyone's potential to be a deity. What does that make me?

[QUOTE=thrawn2787;32447547] Again see my thoughts on agnostics (kind of). Either you believe or you don't. Answering "I don't care" to a yes or no question ("do you believe in a deity or deities") isn't really an answer Anyways feeling I should stop posting in this thread for awhile [sp]so I will[/sp][/QUOTE] The thing I am saying however, is that I will value money/power/health/land/etc pretty much everything over my personal religious beliefs. It however does not make me an atheist because I am very willing to quickly swap sides and denounce atheism as long as I get something out of it/get forced to.

[QUOTE=demoniclemon;32447649]I am a Deist, though I have thought about everyone's potential to be a deity. What does that make me?[/QUOTE]Most likely an Agnostic-Deist. 'S what I go for as well.

I don't know what I am. I'm pretty much apathetic to all religion. Unless a god comes to me personally and talks to me, all religion is irrelevant to me. I want to spend my time alive doing things worthwhile, not having endless debates over religion.

[QUOTE=Kalibos;32447057]theism/atheism/deism have to do with [B]belief[/B] and gnosticism/agnosticism have to do with [B]knowledge[/B][/QUOTE] No they don't. In fact they have to do with a lack of knowledge but are based on a belief in god.

[QUOTE=imasillypiggy;32447779]No they don't. In fact they have to do with a lack of knowledge but are based on a belief in god.[/QUOTE] He means they're a scale of belief/knowledge.

If I were to pick a label I think agnostic scepticism would fit me best, there's no solid evidence on either side and some beliefs even explicitly state you can't prove their god exists which is a completely useless concept since it's impossible to know if you are correct or not. A fair few people I've spoken to seem to think you have to get moral values from some sort of holy rulebook though, and that those who don't are inherently not good people. That's a belief that really pisses me off, if anything being "selfless" for the reward of heaven or for fear of hell is less moral than doing the same thing out of compassion for your fellow man. There's two main concepts that I use for "righteous" and "evil"; striving for truth and education, as well as spreading it, and on the other side, wilful ignorance and wilfully spreading ignorance or something you know to not be true.