• NATO: We won't be dragged into arms race with Russia *gets dragged into arms race with Russia*
    22 replies, posted
[url]http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/06/24/us-ukraine-crisis-nato-idUSKBN0P41RT20150624[/url] [quote]The head of NATO said on Wednesday the alliance would not be forced into a new arms race with Russia but said what he called Moscow's aggression in Ukraine had compelled it to strengthen its defenses. The United States announced plans this week to station tanks and heavy weapons in NATO member states on Russia's border, shortly after President Vladimir Putin said Moscow would add 40 missiles to its nuclear arsenal. "We will not be dragged into an arms race, but we must keep our countries safe," NATO Secretary-General Jens Stoltenberg told reporters at a meeting of alliance defense ministers. A Russian official last week accused NATO of pushing Russia into an arms race by stepping up its military activity around its borders, not least in the formerly Soviet Baltic states. Stoltenberg said the U.S. decision to store equipment in eastern Europe was a prudent response to Russia's actions.[/quote]
[QUOTE]would not be forced into a new arms race[/QUOTE] I don't think this will last.
hence we join the arms race
Welp, time to commence the dick waving competition once more...
Invent more tech for China to steal.
It's not entirely wrong. An arms race is when you are trying to leap ahead of your opponent. What they propose is merely keeping pace.
I wasn't aware that in a point in time NATO nations stopped developing better and more advanced weapon systems.
Wasn't Europe busy winding down military spending, EU citizens voicing concern at said winding down, when suddenly Euromaidan aftermath and bang!, EU ramps up defenses in response to perceived Russian threat. And lo and behold, Putin is crying about EU feeling threatened?
[QUOTE=Passing;48044111]I don't think this will last.[/QUOTE] Of course it won't. Russia can't afford both a strong, modern army with lots of fancy equipment and buy the support of the population. Many of their social programs are underfunded or collapsing, a lot of the big corporations that dominate their economy are mired in debt, and their economy is moribund. Not to mention that everything is shakily held together in a hypercentralized country filled with regions that loathe Moscow and either try to break away or claw back power from the Kremlin.
Their country is going to collapse a second time just like the Soviet Union did from overspending if they continue down this road. They're doing nothing but digging their own grave.
[QUOTE=StrawberryClock;48044467]I wasn't aware that in a point in time NATO nations stopped developing better and more advanced weapon systems.[/QUOTE] [b]Seriously[/b] Our computer systems are the easiest place to start in regards to how outpaced Russia is in regards to military technology. Hell, even just our drone technology is leagues and bounds better than anyone else out there, and our anti-missile technology is excellent.
[QUOTE=StrawberryClock;48044467]I wasn't aware that in a point in time NATO nations stopped developing better and more advanced weapon systems.[/QUOTE] It didn't. The point, I believe, is that NATO military tech development/spending isn't going to increase just because of Russia's threat, it's gonna stay as constant as it was before.
Still can't believe in this day and age a relative superpower is waving nukes around and threatening countries with them, like they don't know what they are playing with, no line in the sand is worth that amount of unbiased destruction. We all need to just out them the fuck down, starting with NATO.
That's not an arms race, those vehicles are just being moved around, an arms race is a massive buildup of new weapons and vehicles, not repositioning of existing fleets NATO does need to build up their arms to the treaty stipulated levels though
I'm going to say something, but I need to preface it with the statement that to all of those in Russia, I love you guys and mean no disrespect. If the Russian government ever decided to do something that warranted immediate American retaliation, delusions of parity would be gone within five hours. I never want to see it have to come to that. Seriously. Everyone needs to chill the fuck out.
[QUOTE=Faunze;48045315]Still can't believe in this day and age a relative superpower is waving nukes around and threatening countries with them, like they don't know what they are playing with, no line in the sand is worth that amount of unbiased destruction. We all need to just out them the fuck down, starting with NATO.[/QUOTE] I agree with you, but I think Russia needs to calm the fuck down first, considering that they're the ones who invaded and annexed another nation like it's the eighteenth century.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;48044548]Of course it won't. Russia can't afford both a strong, modern army with lots of fancy equipment and buy the support of the population. Many of their social programs are underfunded or collapsing, a lot of the big corporations that dominate their economy are mired in debt, and their economy is moribund. Not to mention that everything is shakily held together in a hypercentralized country filled with regions that loathe Moscow and either try to break away or claw back power from the Kremlin.[/QUOTE] Ooooh you don't understand a thing about Russia. No, really. Some things you said are on spot. But regions that want to break away? Russia cant sustain a modern army? Read less Tom Clancy.
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;48047086]Ooooh you don't understand a thing about Russia. No, really. Some things you said are on spot. But regions that want to break away? Russia cant sustain a modern army? Read less Tom Clancy.[/QUOTE] By breakway regions I'm referring to places like Chechnya, the Circassians, Sunnis, etc. As for other places, pretty much everywhere in Russia that isn't Moscow wants a good bit more autonomy. Also Russia really can't develop such an army anytime soon. The Russian armed forces still have problems that leave it well behind quite a few other countries. These involve poor living facilities for soldiers, corruption (army budgets tend to vanish), outdated equipment, a lack of able-bodied men for conscription, etc. By a modern army, I mean one that is on par with NATO. I reckon the Russian armed forces are not at that point, and the existence of major structural problems in the military, government, and economy prevent them from reaching such a position of strength.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;48047164]By breakway regions I'm referring to places like Chechnya, the Circassians, Sunnis, etc. As for other places, pretty much everywhere in Russia that isn't Moscow wants a good bit more autonomy. Also Russia really can't develop such an army anytime soon. The Russian armed forces still have problems that leave it well behind quite a few other countries. These involve poor living facilities for soldiers, corruption (army budgets tend to vanish), outdated equipment, a lack of able-bodied men for conscription, etc. By a modern army, I mean one that is on par with NATO. I reckon the Russian armed forces are not at that point, and the existence of major structural problems in the military, government, and economy prevent them from reaching such a position of strength.[/QUOTE] I agree Russian army is not on par with NATO, but its still more modern and capable than most armies out there. In a conventional hypothetical war against US (only US) Russia would loose, but the casualties US would take would be extremely horrible. Enough to never try that stunt. Russian army has all the fun modern jazz: drones and such. Not US scale, but fighting Russia would be nothing like fighting terrorist groups. I dont think there is a single army on par with NATO simply because NATO has dem aircraft carriers. And dem attack drones. Chechnya isnt gonna break away since it's entirely dependant on Russia (and vise versa because without chechen gas Russian gas would cost jack shit) economically, plus the current ruler wouldn't survive a day without his army of russian guards (Ramzan Kadyrov only hires Russian bodyguards). Other regions don't really want autonomy because the rulers all come from Kremlin. The corruption - yeah. But dont underestimate how much the common folk are willing to fight dem evil capitalism. If Russia declared war on US today most people would happily support that. It's fucked, wicked and horrible, but that system is awfully stable and has been so for over 15 years. Tldr russia isn't falling apart and can give a good fight
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;48050114]I agree Russian army is not on par with NATO, but its still more modern and capable than most armies out there. In a conventional hypothetical war against US (only US) Russia would loose, but the casualties US would take would be extremely horrible. Enough to never try that stunt. Russian army has all the fun modern jazz: drones and such. Not US scale, but fighting Russia would be nothing like fighting terrorist groups. I dont think there is a single army on par with NATO simply because NATO has dem aircraft carriers. And dem attack drones. Chechnya isnt gonna break away since it's entirely dependant on Russia (and vise versa because without chechen gas Russian gas would cost jack shit) economically, plus the current ruler wouldn't survive a day without his army of russian guards (Ramzan Kadyrov only hires Russian bodyguards). Other regions don't really want autonomy because the rulers all come from Kremlin. The corruption - yeah. But dont underestimate how much the common folk are willing to fight dem evil capitalism. If Russia declared war on US today most people would happily support that. It's fucked, wicked and horrible, but that system is awfully stable and has been so for over 15 years. Tldr russia isn't falling apart and can give a good fight[/QUOTE] Well Stratfor has a prediction. [QUOTE]"There will not be an uprising against Moscow, but Moscow's withering ability to support and control the Russian Federation will leave a vacuum," Stratfor warns. "What will exist in this vacuum will be the individual fragments of the Russian Federation." Sanctions, declining oil prices, a plunging ruble, rising military expenses, and increasing internal discord will weaken the hold of Russia's central government over the world's largest country. Russia won't officially split into multiple countries, but Moscow's power may loosen to the point that Russia will effectively become a string of semi-autonomous regions that might not even get along with one another. "We expect Moscow's authority to weaken substantially, leading to the formal and informal fragmentation of Russia" the report states, adding that " It is unlikely that the Russian Federation will survive in its current form."[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Deathtrooper2;48050146]Well Stratfor has a prediction.[/QUOTE] With the current centralisation where no region save for Chechnya can survive a day without Kremlin and when all the governors of regions come from Kremlin and leave to Kremlin (meaning they dont originate from the regions they govern) it seems very unlikely. As stupid as it is, extreme centralisation is benefitial in times of crisis. My prediction is that Russia will survive just as it is now at least until Putin resigns (which will most likely cause changes among the elite so unexpected things can happen) and I might live long enough to see it become something better. Seriously though reading news about Russia makes you feel as if nothing good ever happens here and everyone in power is insane. Not just talking about english sources, it's in Russian news too. But it has been going on for many years. Every year someone predicts that Russia will dissolve but it never happens because the population is united. United by fear, ignorance and conservatism, but united as it has never been since USSR I believe.
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;48050114]I agree Russian army is not on par with NATO, but its still more modern and capable than most armies out there. In a conventional hypothetical war against US (only US) Russia would loose, but the casualties US would take would be extremely horrible. Enough to never try that stunt. Russian army has all the fun modern jazz: drones and such. Not US scale, but fighting Russia would be nothing like fighting terrorist groups. I dont think there is a single army on par with NATO simply because NATO has dem aircraft carriers. And dem attack drones.[/quote] While Russia does have a functioning army, the point is that it won't be able to compete with the west on any level. Russia is also largely incapable of building an army that can actually pose the threat that the USSR once did. In terms of military force and projection Russia can't (and won't) do much more than intervene in small conflicts on their borders or within the federation. [quote]Chechnya isnt gonna break away since it's entirely dependant on Russia (and vise versa because without chechen gas Russian gas would cost jack shit) economically, plus the current ruler wouldn't survive a day without his army of russian guards (Ramzan Kadyrov only hires Russian bodyguards). Other regions don't really want autonomy because the rulers all come from Kremlin. The corruption - yeah. But dont underestimate how much the common folk are willing to fight dem evil capitalism. If Russia declared war on US today most people would happily support that. It's fucked, wicked and horrible, but that system is awfully stable and has been so for over 15 years. Tldr russia isn't falling apart and can give a good fight[/QUOTE] If I could give my outsiders perspective, it seems much more that Russia is actually rather precarious. The country was horribly unstable during the 90s, and although recently Putin has been able to restore a modicum of stability to the country, this should not be mistaken with the view that he has actually ensured the long-term stability of the federation, because most of the economic, social, and political problems that cropped up over the past 25 years are still largely unsolved and continue to fester. Were Russia to go to war with the west, it would be a great disaster and cause untold social, economic, and cultural damage to the nation that it would struggle to recover from. This would be a depressing thing to happen to one of the great peoples of Europe and tarnish the image of Russia for a century more.
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