Can telling a lie be justified if it brings greater good? - General

In my political philosophy class today we were discussing the beliefs of Plato and Confucius, in this discussion we were debating Plato's idea that if there is a philosopher king telling a lie to push him up the ranks to world leader can be justified if it brings greater good. The opposition of this argument was that Confucius believed that if the basis of your deed was bad then no good can come of it. In my opinion Plato has a point, the public don't often know what's best for them (and often it's just majority wins) so if you have level headed people that believe that they are making a decision that will benefit the country then it should be acceptable to slightly deceive the public for the greater good. thoughts?

It would do more good than bad, so yes, it is justified.

Of course it can be justified. If you purposely act contrarily to the greater good, you're doing wrong. Deontological ethics is just impossibly flawed and a terrible reflection of why humans act. We act with respect to consequences (unless we're acting irrationally) so it only makes sense to be consequentialist.

No, I don't think politicians should lie. They are elected because the public has confidence in them, and if politicians lie they are abusing this trust towards them, and that only leads to mistrust of not only the lying politician, but all politicians. Lying does more bad than good in the long run, in my opinion.

[QUOTE=Robbobin;32841984]Of course it can be justified. If you purposely act contrarily to the greater good, you're doing wrong. Deontological ethics is just impossibly flawed and a terrible reflection of why humans act. We act with respect to consequences (unless we're acting irrationally) so it only makes sense to be consequentialist.[/QUOTE] but what happens when the public finds out that they've been lied to (and this is what Confucius is saying about no good can come out of a bad deed)

[QUOTE=Goodthief;32842032]but what happens when the public finds out that they've been lied to (and this is what Confucius is saying about no good can come out of a bad deed)[/QUOTE] Risk assessment is a huge part of ethics. I guess it's similar to the notion of human rights (I'm bringing this up because I'm more comfortable talking about human rights than truth-telling) - human rights are in general a very, very good thing for the human race. Violation of human rights would have (and has had) profound consequences, and the notion of human rights is only really valuable to a society if one's state adheres to it. However there are conceivable circumstances where it would be in the interests of the greater good to violate human rights - purely in virtue of the fact that human rights (and truth-telling) are not in themselves intrinsically valuable. Intrinsic value (in politics, I believe the only intrinsic value is in net happiness) always trumps absolutely everything else. Of course, more often than not the state has very conclusive reason to not lie or violate human rights - however this is not an absolute rule.

Lying is ok as long as you don't get caught.

If you are lying to bring together something, that will lead to a greater cause. Like when Themistocles lied to the people of Athens and convinced them to build a navy of over 100 triremes and held back the Persian navy and saving the Athenians from being Persian slaves.

No because it is predicated on certainty of the future. It's a similar fallacy to asking "is murder one innocent moral if it saves 1000 innocent". This idea is well understood and it is why it is a common cliche plot line on TV and in real life. You tell a lie thinking you can get away with it, and you don't and things end up worse.

[QUOTE=Pepin;32858031]No because it is predicated on certainty of the future. It's a similar fallacy to asking "is murder one innocent moral if it saves 1000 innocent". This idea is well understood and it is why it is a common cliche plot line on TV and in real life. You tell a lie thinking you can get away with it, and you don't and things end up worse.[/QUOTE] There are millions of situations where telling a lie is better than telling the truth. Say a father and his son were in a car accident. The son died immediately, the father is in the ICU, about to die any minute now. He asks the nurse how his son is. Should the nurse tell the truth and say his son is dead, or should she lie and say he'll be completely fine, knowing the father isn't going to make it out of that bed?

You should first discuss whether telling a lie is inherently bad, which it isn't.

[QUOTE=Zeke129;32858269]There are millions of situations where telling a lie is better than telling the truth. Say a father and his son were in a car accident. The son died immediately, the father is in the ICU, about to die any minute now. He asks the nurse how his son is. Should the nurse tell the truth and say his son is dead, or should she lie and say he'll be completely fine, knowing the father isn't going to make it out of that bed?[/QUOTE] While I agree that it could leader to a greater good, that is not a situation were it would be a definite good thing, as that situation is more down to perspective as I personally think it would be far better for him to die knowing the truth than to die having an untrue hope.

[QUOTE=carcarcargo;32858929]While I agree that it could leader to a greater good, that is not a situation were it would be a definite good thing, as that situation is more down to perspective as I personally think it would be far better for him to die knowing the truth than to die having an untrue hope.[/QUOTE] Well once he's dead it won't matter so why not let him feel a bit of joy first? It's pretty heartless to say that truth is always better, even when the only outcome will be misery

[QUOTE=Zeke129;32858981]Well once he's dead it won't matter so why not let him feel a bit of joy first? It's pretty heartless to say that truth is always better, even when the only outcome will be misery[/QUOTE] I personally would rather die at least knowing the truth, even if a lie would make me feel happier as I generally hate false hope.

Better example.. might be a bit gimmicky but if a virus spreads in a town you wouldn't want to tell the whole population "Hey, there's a deadly virus but DON'T PANIC!". You'd want to try to isolate the town and rid the problem without anyone knowing to rid the chance of mass panic.

[QUOTE=Ond kaja;32842031]No, I don't think politicians should lie. They are elected because the public has confidence in them.[/QUOTE] Everyone knows politicians lie to get in power and that's about it. Even if they are little things that you don't notice.

[QUOTE=Maximo13;32859485]Everyone knows politicians lie to get in power and that's about it. Even if they are little things that you don't notice.[/QUOTE]Some politicians lie, true, but definitely not all of them.

[I]Can telling a lie be justified if it brings greater good?[/I] [IMG]http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-_YIL18n74xs/Tc3m1vAM-rI/AAAAAAAAATo/Iq_7CVwNyac/s1600/two-face-raturns_490.jpg[/IMG] Sometimes.

If it's for the greater good then of course. Everything must be done in order to bring about the greater good, you know.

[QUOTE=Zeke129;32858269]Should the nurse tell the truth and say his son is dead, or should she lie and say he'll be completely fine, knowing the father isn't going to make it out of that bed?[/QUOTE] I don't quite understand the premise of this. The issue is the question is that the reasoning is inherently applicable to all matters of death as death is always certain. The only variable that changes is perceived time by a third party. The real question you're asking is "when is it acceptable to lie within the predicted time left?" which is a pretty ridiculous question and the justification for lying does not follow within the logistics of it.

[QUOTE=AK'z;32861025]If it's for the greater good then of course. Everything must be done in order to bring about the greater good, you know.[/QUOTE] [IMG]http://www.motifake.com/image/demotivational-poster/0902/hot-fuzz-hot-fuzz-simon-skinner-great-good-the-the-greater-g-demotivational-poster-1234731350.jpg[/IMG]

[QUOTE=Soldier32;32859410]Better example.. might be a bit gimmicky but if a virus spreads in a town you wouldn't want to tell the whole population "Hey, there's a deadly virus but DON'T PANIC!". You'd want to try to isolate the town and rid the problem without anyone knowing to rid the chance of mass panic.[/QUOTE]No that is actually quite bad. People should know there's a fucking virus going rampant. If they won't, there's much higher chance of transmitting it to each other. [editline]19th October 2011[/editline] Define what greater good is. It might be good for some while it will not for others. It's all subjective.

[QUOTE=AceOfDivine;32862109]No that is actually quite bad. People should know there's a fucking virus going rampant. If they won't, there's much higher chance of transmitting it to each other. [editline]19th October 2011[/editline] Define what greater good is. It might be good for some while it will not for others. It's all subjective.[/QUOTE] I mean like a rural town you know how those scary movies set up. The government would have a good chance of containing the virus and killing it but to inform the public about WHERE it's taking place and how dangerous it is would cause a mass panic and would cause some people to travel to the infected place.

[QUOTE=Soldier32;32862858]I mean like a rural town you know how those scary movies set up. The government would have a good chance of containing the virus and killing it but to inform the public about WHERE it's taking place and how dangerous it is would cause a mass panic and would cause some people to travel to the infected place.[/QUOTE]Cause people to travel TO the infected place? What? If anything, it will cause people to move out. Sure it would be "good" but it could backfire just as easily. Uninformed people are just as scared as informed ones. If the virus starts to show it's signs, you will be in some shit.

The idea that we should all be told the truth all the time is unrealistic. People forget that most people - while having gone through compulsory education - are usually stupid and are unable to form their own opinions and extract fact from fiction. Telling the the truth is a really good way at causing mass hysteria.

[QUOTE=iPope;32864879]The idea that we should all be told the truth all the time is unrealistic. People forget that most people - while having gone through compulsory education - are usually stupid and are unable to form their own opinions and extract fact from fiction. Telling the the truth is a really good way at causing mass hysteria.[/QUOTE]It's because we are so used to lies. If we would always be told only truth we'd learn to accept it and act accordingly. Right now we are used to be told sweet lies. So when someone tells the rough truth, everyone goes apeshit because they can't take it.

[QUOTE=Wrathborne;32862092][IMG]http://www.motifake.com/image/demotivational-poster/0902/hot-fuzz-hot-fuzz-simon-skinner-great-good-the-the-greater-g-demotivational-poster-1234731350.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE] beat me to it

[QUOTE=AceOfDivine;32864919]It's because we are so used to lies. If we would always be told only truth we'd learn to accept it and act accordingly. Right now we are used to be told sweet lies. So when someone tells the rough truth, everyone goes apeshit because they can't take it.[/QUOTE] The brain disagrees with you. People are just irrational and the public don't need to hear what will make them panic.

[QUOTE=iPope;32865093]The brain disagrees with you. People are just irrational and the public don't need to hear what will make them panic.[/QUOTE] Brain does not disagree. Brain can and is being trained. If we were never lied to, we would not panic about random shit because we would be used to it. Instead we might actually do something productive. But since we're always lied to, we never expect shit to go down even when it is. And when people find out, it's too late.

"There's no Jews in the attic!" [img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/47/Anne_Frank.jpg[/img] Damn chronic liars