• German court bans sections of poem mocking Turkish president Erdogan
    73 replies, posted
[URL]http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/17/german-court-bans-sections-of-poem-mocking-turkish-president-erd/[/URL] [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/BkZTGUg.jpg[/IMG] [quote][B]German comedian Jan Boehmermann is accused of insulting the Turkish president[/B][/quote] [quote] A Hamburg court issued a preliminary injunction on Tuesday banning re-publication of sections of a satirical poem by a German comedian mocking the Turkish president, saying they amounted to abuse and libel. Comedian Jan Boehmermann recited a poem on television in March suggesting Recep Tayyip Erdogan engaged in bestiality and watched child pornography, prompting the Turkish leader to file a complaint with [URL="http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/15/merkel-approves-turkey-request-for-comedian-prosecution/"]prosecutors that he had been insulted[/URL]. In a separate complaint, lawyers for Mr Erdogan also asked a court in Hamburg to ban re-publication of the poem. In its injunction, which applies to the whole of Germany, the Hamburg court marked in red 18 of the poem's 24 verses, which it said were "abusive and defaming. [/quote] [quote]Mr Erdogan, a crucial partner for Angela Merkel in tackling Europe's migrant crisis, had demanded Germany press charges against Boehmermann. The [URL="http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/07/turkeys-president-erdogan-is-not-a-nice-man-we-should-resist-him/"]German chancellor has drawn criticism[/URL] for allowing prosecutors to pursue the case against Boehmermann. [/quote] [quote]The affair, which has turned into a diplomatic spat, has opened Mrs Merkel to accusations she has become too accommodating towards Mr Erdogan in pursuing a controversial European Union deal with Turkey to stem the flow of refugees into Europe. Critics had already accused her of ignoring human rights violations and actions against journalists in Turkey, a candidate for EU membership.[/quote]
"free speech"
No surprise considering Germany hasn't had free speech at all in the modern era, I'm not sure why anyone would expect der fuhrer to let some comedian practice a basic human right if it got in the way of her plans. [editline]19th May 2016[/editline] Yeah, I am implying that there's political bullshit going on here. Nobody would give a fuck if this was about Putin, but Erdogan? Merkel needs him to cut off the flow of refugees (Germany is apparently incapable of saying "no" themselves for some odd reason) and so she has to keep the sultan happy.
[QUOTE=Trebgarta;50349387]This should be prosecuted. Under defamation laws. Possible sentence should be a fine. That is my only disagreement. It should be as if he had read a poem about any other person fucking sheep and watching child porn on live television. Like about a regular German citizen. Erdogan shouldn't get a special treatment but Boehmerman shouldnt get a free pass to defame without a case either. Should be prosecuted and be seen if against the law or not. This is Germany, not Turkey. Court will look at evidence and come to a just decision, if not then the appeal will be just. As far as I know at least, German justice system hasn't got major issues.[/QUOTE] It's really interesting how you defend both this and the attempted cover up of important details regarding Cologne. If you had read the article you would have seen that this was brought up specifically due to a law regarding it being illegal to insult foreign leaders. But go ahead, argue that jokes and comedians should be chained and leashed to protect those poor defenseless world leaders.
[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;50349450]No surprise considering Germany hasn't had free speech at all in the modern era, I'm not sure why anyone would expect der fuhrer to let some comedian practice a basic human right if it got in the way of her plans. [editline]19th May 2016[/editline] Yeah, I am implying that there's political bullshit going on here. Nobody would give a fuck if this was about Putin, but Erdogan? Merkel needs him to cut off the flow of refugees (Germany is apparently incapable of saying "no" themselves for some odd reason) and so she has to keep the sultan happy.[/QUOTE] Considering there's a separation of powers in Germany it doesn't matter to the court what Angela Merkel wants.
Well it's just the Böhmermann poem, let's just make a new poem then.
[QUOTE=uber.;50349511]Considering there's a separation of powers in Germany it doesn't matter to the court what Angela Merkel wants.[/QUOTE]So Germany is immune to corruption? Interesting! [editline]19th May 2016[/editline] I stand behind my assertion, nobody would be raising a fuss if it was Putin, or hell, if it was George Bush being insulted. I'm pretty sure Germans have widely insulted our former president plenty of times.
[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;50349600]So Germany is immune to corruption? Interesting! [editline]19th May 2016[/editline] I stand behind my assertion, nobody would be raising a fuss if it was Putin, or hell, if it was George Bush being insulted. I'm pretty sure Germans have widely insulted our former president plenty of times.[/QUOTE] No country is immune to corruption, but Germany is quite low on the international index of corruption. Just saying. As for raising a fuss, well, Putin generally doesn't give a damn (and I think he'd lose a lot of his image/tough guy appearance if he started doing it). Erdogan however is a thin-skinned wannabe dictator/sultan and he is going nuts over crap like this. Only recently they called in the German diplomat for making a joke on Germans and Turkish (it was a light-hearted figure of speech on both German and Turkish stereotypes that I can't really translate). Needless to say Erdogan is a whiny bitch who's trying to big himself up because the EU wants him for something. All that said, Boehmermann did go too far imho and if any other head of state (or any person) felt hurt over these offenses then they should have the right to tell the dude off.
[QUOTE=Thlis;50349466]It's really interesting how you defend both this and the attempted cover up of important details regarding Cologne. If you had read the article you would have seen that this was brought up specifically due to a law regarding it being illegal to insult foreign leaders. But go ahead, argue that jokes and comedians should be chained and leashed to protect those poor defenseless world leaders.[/QUOTE] This isn't satire. It's defamation and therefore illegal. Böhmermann knew this and did it anyways in hopes of starting controversy, as he just couldn't have it that a rivaling comedy show called Extra3 made an actually funny parody on Erdogan that was completely within the bounds of satire. Defending Böhmermann makes you look like a fool to be honest.
[QUOTE=Doom64hunter;50349648]This isn't satire. It's defamation and therefore illegal. Böhmermann knew this and did it anyways in hopes of starting controversy, as he just couldn't have it that a rivaling comedy show called Extra3 made an actually funny parody on Erdogan that was completely within the bounds of satire. Defending Böhmermann makes you look like a fool to be honest.[/QUOTE] Yes, many people tend to forget he even pre-emptively said that his poem was defamation and beyond satire. Announcing that you're about to insult somebody doesn't make it any less insulting in the eyes of the law. Same thing as if you announce you're about to steal something. What blows my mind that Böhmermann is now complaining about this despite fully knowing and apparently accepting the consequences of his defamation with the aforementioned announcement before his poem.
[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;50349600]So Germany is immune to corruption? Interesting! [editline]19th May 2016[/editline] I stand behind my assertion, nobody would be raising a fuss if it was Putin, or hell, if it was George Bush being insulted. I'm pretty sure Germans have widely insulted our former president plenty of times.[/QUOTE] I'm sorry, mate. Are you writing for Fox News? But you do realise that in this case it is Erdogan who is making a fuss, right?
[QUOTE=Trebgarta;50349638]I'm sure nobody called Bush a goatfucker on live TV in Germany.[/QUOTE]Maybe not in Germany, but people have flat-out called him mentally retarded and there were never any shortage of jokes at his expense while he was president. [QUOTE=Selek;50349646]No country is immune to corruption, but Germany is quite low on the international index of corruption. Just saying.[/QUOTE]Fair enough, but I'd consider the double standard here and the timing of all of this to be absurd. Don't Germans even care that their government has passed laws that allow this bullshit to even happen? People would be absolutely fucking livid if it happened here, and honestly just reading this story makes me uncomfortable. [QUOTE=uber.;50349673]I'm sorry, mate. Are you writing for Fox News?[/QUOTE]Are you just saying "Fox News" for the hell of it? Pointing out a double-standard isn't something Fox News normally cries foul about, which is exactly what I'm doing here. Or are you equating "pro-liberty" with "Fox News" or something? [QUOTE]But you do realise that in this case it is Erdogan who is making a fuss, right?[/QUOTE]Of course, but he has friends in high places in Germany; the highest of places actually. Are you honestly telling me that there is [I]absolutely no connection whatsoever there?[/I]
[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;50349717]Fair enough, but I'd consider the double standard here and the timing of all of this to be absurd. Don't Germans even care that their government has passed laws that allow this bullshit to even happen? People would be absolutely fucking livid if it happened here, and honestly just reading this story makes me uncomfortable.[/QUOTE] You mean the law of it being punishable to insult monarchs? That's an old law ranging back to the German Empire. A 'leftover law' that's in the process of being repealed by Merkel's government who are getting so much unnecessary flack for this. I disagree with the law and am glad that they are currently repealing it, but I don't disagree with the notion that people can fight back against being slandered. Free speech to me doesn't include being disrespectful and slanderous to everybody around you without consequences.
[QUOTE=Trebgarta;50349767]Can you send me a Youtube video of people on Live TV calling him mentally retarded without any satire connection, pure defamatory style?[/QUOTE]No. I'm not going to search through countless hours to prove that somebody, somewhere, said something mean about George Bush, especially considering how you just handwave literally anything I could say. You want defamatory? Try Kanye West's famous "George Bush doesn't care about black people" line, that fits your definition pretty nicely considering how loaded of a statement that was given the context. [QUOTE]This is an archaic law that wasn't applied and probably wont be applied, so a fuss isnt really require. But fear not, German people are making a fuss about it.[/QUOTE]So what about all the other censorship laws? "A fuss" over something that's just relevant because of current events doesn't help the other instances of legalized censorship. [QUOTE=Selek;50349823]You mean the law of it being punishable to insult monarchs? That's an old law ranging back to the German Empire.[/QUOTE]Why in the fuck does that even exist? They've gone through three separate governments (four if you split East and West Germany) since then, surely during one of several overhauls of the legal system somebody would have noticed that. [QUOTE]I disagree with the law and am glad that they are currently repealing it, but I don't disagree with the notion that people can fight back against being slandered. Free speech to me doesn't include being disrespectful and slanderous to everybody around you without consequences.[/QUOTE]Slander is on our books too, but it's quite limited in scope and in this case it would absolutely be protected under the 1st Amendment; it's clearly a protest against Erdogan and is arguably art. Frankly he deserves it anyway, he's a public figure that has opened himself up for vitriolic criticism given his repeated abuses of power. Actual abuse of power by the way, even if my assertions regarding Merkel were true they wouldn't come close to Erdogan's bullshit. Tyrants like him are easily offended and because of that they're extremely dangerous people if left unchecked, if Turkey's worth was measured by it's leader then you would do well to keep him out of the European Union. That aside I cannot stand anyone who thinks insults need to be regulated, that's the fastest fucking way to establishing thought police and other similar bullshit. That's how the Erdogans of the world pad their egos and keep their power, that's precisely why our 1st Amendment is so goddamn strong; to keep fuckers like him out on the street with the rest of the trash.
[QUOTE=Selek;50349823]You mean the law of it being punishable to insult monarchs? That's an old law ranging back to the German Empire. A 'leftover law' that's in the process of being repealed by Merkel's government who are getting so much unnecessary flack for this. I disagree with the law and am glad that they are currently repealing it, but I don't disagree with the notion that people can fight back against being slandered. Free speech to me doesn't include being disrespectful and slanderous to everybody around you without consequences.[/QUOTE] Yes because free speech is only free speech until someone's feelings are hurt
[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;50349717]Are you just saying "Fox News" for the hell of it? Pointing out a double-standard isn't something Fox News normally cries foul about, which is exactly what I'm doing here. Or are you equating "pro-liberty" with "Fox News" or something? Of course, but he has friends in high places in Germany; the highest of places actually. Are you honestly telling me that there is [I]absolutely no connection whatsoever there?[/I][/QUOTE] No, I'm saying Fox News cause you make weird connections. Why should Merkel be able to influence what the Hamburger court decides? There was a decision by Merkel herself a few weeks ago, if that's what you mean that I would actually agree. But I find the idea that Merkel can influence a local court to be ridiculous.[QUOTE=Native Hunter;50349879]Yes because free speech is only free speech until someone's feelings are hurt[/QUOTE] Do you think that holocaust denial also falls under free speech?
[QUOTE=uber.;50349978]No, I'm saying Fox News cause you make weird connections. Why should Merkel be able to influence what the Hamburger court decides? There was a decision by Merkel herself a few weeks ago, if that's what you mean that I would actually agree.[/QUOTE]I mean this: "hey, Erdogan is complaining, can you please, please look at this? I know we're not supposed to be talking, but it would be nice if this was handled so he doesn't get upset." [QUOTE]Do you think that holocaust denial also falls under free speech?[/QUOTE]lmao what a ridiculous question. Of course it falls under free speech, why the fuck wouldn't it? What, are we going to round up every conspiracy theorist and crackpot and then have them all shot because people's feelings are hurt? Fuck that.
[QUOTE=uber.;50349978] Do you think that holocaust denial also falls under free speech?[/QUOTE] Yes. It does. Its ignorant, but it falls under free spech.
[QUOTE=EdvardSchnitz;50350006]Yes. It does. Its ignorant, but it falls under free spech.[/QUOTE] Considering that anti-semitism is still going strong in multiple European countries that's pretty sad. [QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;50349999]I mean this: "hey, Erdogan is complaining, can you please, please look at this? I know we're not supposed to be talking, but it would be nice if this was handled so he doesn't get upset." lmao what a ridiculous question. Of course it falls under free speech, why the fuck wouldn't it? What, are we going to round up every conspiracy theorist and crackpot and then have them all shot because people's feelings are hurt? Fuck that.[/QUOTE] Do you actually have any knowledge of the German jurisdiction? Because honestly this is tin foil hat levels of conspiracy. I'm sorry to tell you, but shooting people without proper trial is currently more of an American thing. I'd actually be motivated to properly answer you if you'd stop behaving like a cunt and overexaggerate all the time.
[QUOTE=uber.;50349978]Do you think that holocaust denial also falls under free speech?[/QUOTE] Yes. You probably thought that was a gotcha question but nope. I don't know why so many Europeans think this should be illegal, or that Nazi paraphernalia should be banned, etc. Laws like that are 100% against free speech. There is no logical argument for keeping them on the books, unless you admit that you're sacrificing free speech. This and "hate speech" laws are areas where America is leaps and bounds ahead of Europe (and Canada for that matter, they have "hate speech" laws too). You should have no right [I]not[/I] to be offended. You should have every right to offend. [editline]19th May 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=uber.;50350142]Considering that anti-semitism is still going strong in multiple European countries that's pretty sad.[/QUOTE] So banning ideas is the right way to combat it?
Shit I guess now Böhmi has to call him a kebap reeking goatfucker without rhyming, this is an assault on poetry!
disgusting that they're actually going ahead with this.
[QUOTE=Pantz Master;50350184]Yes. You probably thought that was a gotcha question but nope. I don't know why so many Europeans think this should be illegal, or that Nazi paraphernalia should be banned, etc. Laws like that are 100% against free speech. There is no logical argument for keeping them on the books, unless you admit that you're sacrificing free speech. This and "hate speech" laws are areas where America is leaps and bounds ahead of Europe (and Canada for that matter, they have "hate speech" laws too). You should have no right [I]not[/I] to be offended. You should have every right to offend.[/QUOTE] Right. Because hate crimes are at an all time low in the US. You know what I hate about the freedom of speech discussions on facepunch? It's that everytime when this is brought up we get people giving the same stupid, false examples why "Freedom of Speech > all". "If we had these laws someone could sue me if they get offended by me wearing short pants!" Some of you always completely disregard the fact that we have judges. Libel is illegal. Slander is illegal. Even in the US. Not everything that comes out of your mouth is legal. [QUOTE=Pantz Master;50350184]So banning ideas is the right way to combat it?[/QUOTE] You're not banning ideas, you're not banning thoughts, you're banning public statements. If you're sick in the head and think that the holocaust is a hoax then please by all means knock yourself out. But the moment you open your mouth and state those as facts or opinions they become public statements. We have speed limits because we have idiots who drive too fast. We have gun control because we have idiots who don't know how to handle them. And while laws do not fix everything or completely eradicate the issues they do help.
[QUOTE=uber.;50350242][B]Right. Because hate crimes are at an all time low in the US.[/B] You know what I hate about the freedom of speech discussions on facepunch? It's that everytime when this is brought up we get people giving the same stupid, false examples why "Freedom of Speech > all". "If we had these laws someone could sue me if they get offended by me wearing short pants!" Some of you always completely disregard the fact that we have judges. Libel is illegal. Slander is illegal. Even in the US. Not everything that comes out of your mouth is legal.[/quote] When did I claim hate crimes were at an all time low? Are you suggesting we adopt some of these laws or something? I don't even really know what you're saying. The rest of this post was a strawman though. [QUOTE=uber.;50350242]You're not banning ideas, you're not banning thoughts, you're banning public statements. If you're sick in the head and think that the holocaust is a hoax then please by all means knock yourself out. But the moment you open your mouth and state those as facts or opinions they become public statements. We have speed limits because we have idiots who drive too fast. We have gun control because we have idiots who don't know how to handle them. And while laws do not fix everything or completely eradicate the issues they do help.[/QUOTE] Cars and guns can physically hurt/kill people. What can false statements about the Holocaust do?
[QUOTE=Pantz Master;50350312] Cars and guns can physically hurt/kill people. What can false statements about the Holocaust do?[/QUOTE] In what kind of super simplistic kid world are you living? Car go ouchie ouchie when not looky looky? Gun go ouchie ouchie when bang bomm bang?
[QUOTE=Killuah;50350324]In what kind of super simplistic kid world are you living? Car go ouchie ouchie when not looky looky? Gun go ouchie ouchie when bang bomm bang?[/QUOTE] I'm saying that there are reasons why we set laws establishing speed limits, because people driving too fast can crash and injure other people or damage property. We have laws limiting the ability of people to purchase guns because dangerous criminals could get ahold of them without proper oversight. There is no such danger to saying "the Holocaust is a myth". The only thing you're protecting by banning statements like that is people's feelings.
Freedom of Speech exists (not just in the US mind you) to protect minority opinions, even if they are disgusting.
Are the confirmed lies about the WMDs in Iraq by Rumsfeld protected under free speech?
[QUOTE=Killuah;50350431]Are the confirmed lies about the WMDs in Iraq by Rumsfeld protected under free speech?[/QUOTE] A Government official lying to go to war =/= a comedian saying dumb shit about a foreign countries president.
[QUOTE=Pantz Master;50350312]When did I claim hate crimes were at an all time low? Are you suggesting we adopt some of these laws or something? I don't even really know what you're saying. The rest of this post was a strawman though.[/QUOTE] Because it happens every. fucking. time. If someone even brings up the idea that "freedom of speech" doesn't cover everything that comes out of your mouth and maybe should have its limits the same stupid overexaggerated examples get brought up, for example that anyone can call anything offensive and therefore we can't have a nuanced discussion on whether it might even be a good idea if someone should pay a fine for, say, publicly calling someone a nigger. And people absolutely love to use this slippery slope to such a degree that it just makes me wonder how much faith you have in your government. [QUOTE=Pantz Master;50350312] Cars and guns can physically hurt/kill people. What can false statements about the Holocaust do?[/QUOTE] Are you honestly comparing a car crash to the genocidal and systematic murder of 6 million jews? Jesus fucking Christ.
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