US outnumbered 14 to 1 as it vetoes UN vote on status of Jerusalem - Polidicks

[video=youtube;JL-Jf1pciok]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JL-Jf1pciok[/video] [QUOTE=The Guardian]A UN security council resolution calling for the withdrawal of Donald Trump’s recognition of Jerusalem as Israel’s capital has been backed by every council member except the US, which used its veto. The unanimity of the rest of the council was a stark rebuke to the Trump administration over its unilateral move earlier this month, which upended decades of international consensus. The Egyptian-drafted resolution did not specifically mention the US or Trump but expressed “deep regret at recent decisions concerning the status of Jerusalem”. A spokesman for the Palestinian president, Mahmoud Abbas, responded to the veto by saying it was “unacceptable and threatens the stability of the international community because it disrespects it”. The UK and France had indicated in advance that they would would back the text, which demanded that all countries comply with pre-existing UNSC resolutions on Jerusalem, dating back to 1967, including requirements that the city’s final status be decided in direct negotiations between Israel and the Palestinians. The resolution was denounced in furious language by the US ambassador to the UN, Nikki Haley, who described it as “an insult” that would not be forgotten. “The United States will not be told by any country where we can put our embassy,” she said. “It’s scandalous to say we are putting back peace efforts,” she added. “The fact that this veto is being done in defence of American sovereignty and in defence of America’s role in the Middle East peace process is not a source of embarrassment for us; it should be an embarrassment to the remainder of the security council.” The Israeli prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, tweeted: “Thank you, Ambassador Haley. On Hanukkah, you spoke like a Maccabi. You lit a candle of truth. You dispel the darkness. One defeated the many. Truth defeated lies. Thank you, President Trump.”[/QUOTE] [URL="https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/dec/18/us-outnumbered-14-to-1-as-it-vetoes-un-vote-on-status-of-jerusalem"]Source[/URL].

What a joke

The US ambassador speaks about the UN insulting the US, but the only insulting that happened was when the US decided to undo decades of diplomatic policy in the Middle East.

God, everyday is just another reminder that I'm fucking embarrassed to be in the U.S

When the next ISIS-like group comes out of the area, remember who to blame.

[QUOTE=Intoxicated Spy;52988279]When the next ISIS-like group comes out of the area, remember who to blame.[/QUOTE] They'll find a way to blame the Democrats.

Why the fuck does the veto power exist.

[QUOTE=The Rifleman;52988345]Why the fuck does the veto power exist.[/QUOTE] Um because if the UN were forcing nuclear powers to do something then they would just leave and defeat the whole purpose of having an organization that is dedicated to being a forum to negotiate. Pretty much every UN vote on israel is vetoed by us anyways but this one certainly states where our allies stand as well as our enemies

Fucking childish

The united states is an embarrassment

No surprises there and I'm sure it was expected, it was a symbolic vote.

So what will the consequences of this be? Why does Jerusalem being named a capital have so much impact on the region?

This was our chance to go "whoops we fucked up, sorry about that", but Donald's ego is too fragile.

[QUOTE=AlbertWesker;52988489]So what will the consequences of this be? Why does Jerusalem being named a capital have so much impact on the region?[/QUOTE] Because Jerusalem is still disputed territory and the international community at large doesn't recognize a legitimate claim over it yet from either side. This move by the US is basically just fondling Israel's balls some more while making negotiations even harder than they already were.

[QUOTE=Intoxicated Spy;52988279]When the next ISIS-like group comes out of the area, remember who to blame.[/QUOTE] Don't we have the US to blame for ISIS already

[QUOTE=Jeezy;52988340]They'll find a way to blame the Democrats.[/QUOTE] "Obama personally and directly did it singlehandedly and also put all of Europe under Sharia law"

[QUOTE=Jim Morrison;52988562]Because Jerusalem is still disputed territory and the international community at large doesn't recognize a legitimate claim over it yet from either side. This move by the US is basically just fondling Israel's balls some more while making negotiations even harder than they already were.[/QUOTE] I find that reasoning to be pretty mediocre. Jerusalem is Israeli territory. They gained it after winning two separate defensive wars. It isn't disputed territory no matter how much people bitch and moan. They have the military power to hold it, therefore it isn't in dispute. The more decent reason is that they are shitbags to the non Israeli citizens in Jerusalem.

[QUOTE=GunFox;52988622]I find that reasoning to be pretty mediocre. Jerusalem is Israeli territory. They gained it after winning two separate defensive wars. It isn't disputed territory no matter how much people bitch and moan. [B]They have the military power to hold it, therefore it isn't in dispute. [/B] The more decent reason is that they are shitbags to the non Israeli citizens in Jerusalem.[/QUOTE] This isn't fully how international relations are conducted however. Crimea, for example, is still recognized as Ukrainian. And not doing this can be dangerous as hell, such as when dealing with the question of whether Taiwan is an independent country.

[QUOTE=GunFox;52988622]I find that reasoning to be pretty mediocre. Jerusalem is Israeli territory. They gained it after winning two separate defensive wars. It isn't disputed territory no matter how much people bitch and moan. They have the military power to hold it, therefore it isn't in dispute. The more decent reason is that they are shitbags to the non Israeli citizens in Jerusalem.[/QUOTE] As thelurker brought up: is Crimea not disputed territory solely because Russia has the military power to enforce the annexation? You can find it mediocre all you like, but specifically in the case of East Jerusalem the international community near-unanimously considers it to be an illegal Israeli occupation of Palestinian territory.

On the one hand, it's basically impossible to refute Jerusalem's status as Israel's capital. Pragmatically speaking, the State of Israel grew around its ownership of East-Jerusalem and cemented its claim in 1967, as it annexed West-Jerusalem and proclaimed the newly-unified city its capital. Trump's move was merely an official reiteration of this fact, whether as a heartfelt but short-sighted move to support Israel or a ham-fisted screech, essentially a "lol, arab countries and muslims, get triggered" way to state geopolitical ambitions in the area and his desire to stir up the shitpot in the region. On the other however, Trump's declaration could also be seen as an intentional inappropriate clusterfuck-initiator that rubs salt into the reeling region's sandy wounds, an especially dangerous move given the fact that the area may only have [I]seemingly[/I] calmed somewhat following Daesh's re-containment to the Syrian warzone and the ensuing general media silence on the group's actions compared to what you'd see a year or two ago, but it may very well remain a geopolitical shatterpoint. The US, realizing the shocking enormity of the blood-orgy it has inadvertently caused after having to kill the consequences of its Iraqi adventure a generation or two earlier, is re-focusing its priorities as seen by the growing presence of US, Euro, and even Canadian special forces in Saharan Africa, as well as the strengthening of Poland and the Baltic states' defences through NATO mandates, manoeuvres, and personnel/equipment deployments. Israel, mostly surrounded by enemies, must find strong geopolitical teammates in order to counteract Iran's regional ambitions, as it always has since its creation. Now that the US is not necessarily retreating but simply reassessing its commitments in the region, Israel is in dire need of friends it can count on if it doesn't want to potentially get screwed by a US-Exit and subsequently get curbstomped by Iran and its sphere of influence if that were to happen. As such, in recent years, Israel has been improving relations with its neighbours, regardless of popular faith/ideology, in order to form a sort of loose anti-Persian league to serve as a deterrent or shield in case of outright war. Jordan is a nice little sort-of progressive friend to have, but Turkey, with a strong military, is a far more helpful candidate. The Saudi Kingdom, already at odds with Iran (unlike fairly ambiguous Turkey), is even more-so, but now that this declaration was made by Trump & his Administration, the already tough-sell of a positive alignment with Israel will be a pill even harder to swallow by the populations of Turkey and Saudi Arabia, as well as Jordan and a previously sort-of indifferent Egypt (with whom Israel actually signed a peace treaty). Trump's meme mouth potentially ruined Israel's chance at hopefully reconciling with neighbours in order to fall into anti-Iran strategic alignment, a steep price for a one-country on-paper recognition of a troubled city's capital status at the heart of an already troubled relationship between long-repressed Palestine and precariously-poised Israel. The worst part about all of this is that the possibility of a US-Exit in the distance still looms over Israel, and IIRC Rex Tillerson or the USA's State Department said something along the lines of "it could take years to move an embassy" which means that this reignition of regional social tensions might very well have been literally for nothing, even if earlier promised by Trump on campaign. -Apologies for length and potential issues related to clarity, open to discussion especially if due to problems related to the latter-

[QUOTE=Lambeth;52988587]Don't we have the US to blame for ISIS already[/QUOTE] No, you can blame Russia and China for that. Russia and China vetoed all attempted interventions in Syria, while doing nothing themselves, and allowed a civil war to stagnate. Because of that, groups like the Taliban went from being near extinct, to having tens of thousands new fighters. Groups like the Hamas got good combat experience to use against Israel during the next Gaza conflict, and groups like ISIS popped up. The US is partly to blame for Iraq being a huge vacuum, but Russia and China are responsible for creating the group to fill that vacuum. Those two forced the rest of the world to sit on their hands while mass murder was committed.

[QUOTE=Cyke Lon bee;52988757]No, you can blame Russia and China for that. Russia and China vetoed all attempted interventions in Syria, while doing nothing themselves, and allowed a civil war to stagnate. Because of that, groups like the Taliban went from being near extinct, to having tens of thousands new fighters. Groups like the Hamas got good combat experience to use against Israel during the next Gaza conflict, and groups like ISIS popped up. The US is partly to blame for Iraq being a huge vacuum, but Russia and China are responsible for creating the group to fill that vacuum. Those two forced the rest of the world to sit on their hands while mass murder was committed.[/QUOTE] No see its obamas fault, because there is no larger geopolitical situation

[QUOTE=Jim Morrison;52988737]As thelurker brought up: is Crimea not disputed territory solely because Russia has the military power to enforce the annexation? You can find it mediocre all you like, but specifically in the case of East Jerusalem the international community near-unanimously considers it to be an illegal Israeli occupation of Palestinian territory.[/QUOTE] Yes. Crimea is currently Russian. That doesn't mean that it can't switch hands or that attempts should not be made to assist them, but Crimea is currently in Russian hands and denying that is ridiculous. If they want to relocate their capital to Crimea then whatever. It changes nothing and hollow condemnations are meaningless. Nobody is rolling up to go toe to toe with the Russian military. They have the power and the will to hold Crimea. It is theirs. IT DOESN'T MAKE IT RIGHT. Should we return Jerusalem to another nation? Meh. They were attacked and took territory as spoils. Hardly illegal.

[QUOTE=Cyke Lon bee;52988757]No, you can blame Russia and China for that. Russia and China vetoed all attempted interventions in Syria, while doing nothing themselves, and allowed a civil war to stagnate. Because of that, groups like the Taliban went from being near extinct, to having tens of thousands new fighters. Groups like the Hamas got good combat experience to use against Israel during the next Gaza conflict, and groups like ISIS popped up. The US is partly to blame for Iraq being a huge vacuum, but Russia and China are responsible for creating the group to fill that vacuum. Those two forced the rest of the world to sit on their hands while mass murder was committed.[/QUOTE] I remember reading a fascinating story about an ISIS prisoner of war who wasn't even all that invested in Islam but whose region was economically devastated after the Iraq war, which pushed him towards ISIS when he grew up. Which when you consider that the Iraq war was a made up phoney baloney war anyway, doesn't make the US look too hot.

[QUOTE=GunFox;52988927]Yes. Crimea is currently Russian. That doesn't mean that it can't switch hands or that attempts should not be made to assist them, but Crimea is currently in Russian hands and denying that is ridiculous. If they want to relocate their capital to Crimea then whatever. It changes nothing and hollow condemnations are meaningless. Nobody is rolling up to go toe to toe with the Russian military. They have the power and the will to hold Crimea. It is theirs. IT DOESN'T MAKE IT RIGHT. Should we return Jerusalem to another nation? Meh. They were attacked and took territory as spoils. Hardly illegal.[/QUOTE] This is one of the most godawful takes on geopolitics I've seen on Facepunch. You're essentially saying "might makes right". You can wax lyrical about how it's wrong but if you're not even willing to put your foot down and say "this territory is not yours, we do not recognise it as such" then who the hell are you trying to convince?

Beating you half to death and taking your stuff isn't illegal.

[QUOTE=Headhumpy;52989091]This is one of the most godawful takes on geopolitics I've seen on Facepunch. You're essentially saying "might makes right". You can wax lyrical about how it's wrong but if you're not even willing to put your foot down and say "this territory is not yours, we do not recognise it as such" then who the hell are you trying to convince?[/QUOTE] Put your foot down? Why? He is right - might makes right in a current geopolitical situation. Because if you did not notice, only thing that remains of "international treaties" is a joke. You wanna live by outdated rules that nobody gives a damn about - you can have a medal of righteousness but everywhere else goverments will continue to break treaties, spy, intervene, support proxies and etc all without giving a damn about worldview you'd expect. This is a reality where you have to recognise each nation as a player interested in it own ambitions and if they ever bring it to moral ground or mention of "international" agreements it is only to further their own cause, NOT to uphold said agreements out of justice. Soo yeah, gunfox is right to stop this pretentios solidarity. Crimea is Russian, and those who think otherwise can only try to take it by force - anything else, is a fruitless bitching.

[QUOTE=karimatrix;52989127]Put your foot down? Why? He is right - might makes right in a current geopolitical situation. Because if you did not notice, only thing that remains of "international treaties" is a joke. You wanna live by outdated rules that nobody gives a damn about - you can have a medal of righteousness but everywhere else goverments will continue to break treaties, spy, intervene, support proxies and etc all without giving a damn about worldview you'd expect. This is a reality where you have to recognise each nation as a player interested in it own ambitions and if they ever bring it to moral ground or mention of "international" agreements it is only to further their own cause, NOT to uphold said agreements out of justice. Soo yeah, gunfox is right to stop this pretentios solidarity. Crimea is Russian, and those who think otherwise can only try to take it by force - anything else, is a fruitless bitching.[/QUOTE] International treaties are only as powerful as the signatories let them be. If you treat them as a joke, moan about how ineffective they are, and therefore conclude that countries need to step in with their own militaries to sort things out, then [B]that's the kind of world you will get[/B]. People like you and GunFox are the [I]exact[/I] reason why international laws and treaties are as impotent as you say they are. You are generating a self-fulfilling prophecy.

[QUOTE=GunFox;52988622]I find that reasoning to be pretty mediocre. Jerusalem is Israeli territory. They gained it after winning two separate defensive wars. It isn't disputed territory no matter how much people bitch and moan. They have the military power to hold it, therefore it isn't in dispute. The more decent reason is that they are shitbags to the non Israeli citizens in Jerusalem.[/QUOTE] It's less disputed territory and more symbolic territory which was supposed to be kept out of politics as all 3 major religions have deep ties to it and there is sounded fear that this will undermine presence of f one in favour of another which has already been done for a while now

[QUOTE=Headhumpy;52989137]International treaties are only as powerful as the signatories let them be. If you treat them as a joke, moan about how ineffective they are, and therefore conclude that countries need to step in with their own militaries to sort things out, then [B]that's the kind of world you will get[/B]. People like you and GunFox are the [I]exact[/I] reason why international laws and treaties are as impotent as you say they are. You are generating a self-fulfilling prophecy.[/QUOTE] How is our statements are moaning, we are not complaining about ineffectivness of international rules, we merely notice that following them is absurd.