Republicans Win Again - Organs Taken Away From the Poors - Polidicks

[url=http://www.npr.org/2010/11/11/131215308/arizona-budget-cuts-put-organ-transplants-at-risk]Source[/url] [quote=NPR] In Arizona, 98 low-income patients approved for organ transplants have been told they are no longer getting them because of state budget cuts. The patients receive medical coverage through the Arizona Health Care Cost Containment System (AHCCCS), the state's version of Medicaid. While it may be common for private insurance companies or government agencies to change eligibility requirements for medical procedures ahead of time, medical ethicists say authorizing a procedure and then reversing that decision is unheard of. A Matter Of Heart Randy Shepherd is 36 and 6-foot-3, but he has to toss baseballs to his 3-year-old son, Nathan, while sitting in a lawn chair. Shepherd has cardiomyopathy; his heart muscle is deteriorating. The condition is the result of rheumatic fever he had as a child. As a teenager, he had his heart valves replaced, but that was 20 years ago. "The muscle's gotten tired and distended," Shepherd says. "It's just worn out." You can hear the weakness in his voice, even though doctors implanted a pacemaker in 2008. They've told Shepherd that he needs a heart transplant to survive. AHCCCS (pronounced like "access") was the only health insurance Shepherd could get because he had a pre-existing condition and, since he was forced to stop working in his plumbing business, little money. The agency authorized his transplant more than a year ago. "The nurse who's the transplant coordinator did tell me about two months ago that I'm the next one of my body size and blood type, so the next [heart] that's available is mine," Shepherd says. A Question Of Ethics But as of Oct. 1, AHCCCS said it is unable to pay for Shepherd's transplant. In fact, facing a $1.5 billion budget deficit, Arizona has cut out all state-funded lung transplants, some bone-marrow transplants and some heart transplants — including transplants for the condition Shepherd has. "To basically renege on what you promised was [going to] be a chance at life is a very, very bitter indictment of the ethics of the Legislature," says Arthur Caplan, head of the Center for Bioethics at the University of Pennsylvania. Caplan calls the reversal "awful" behavior because Arizona is going back on a covenant it made with its patients, and because these are patients for whom time is critical — patients who spent months, some years, thinking they were covered. "They then stop trying to raise money, stop trying to see what Uncle Fred might be willing to give them," Caplan says. "They don't have the bake sale. They don't make the appeal in church." Saving Money? Arizona says the cuts will save about $4.5 million this year. No one from AHCCCS would agree to an interview with NPR. But the state agency provided data it also gave to legislators to make their decision. It says only 15 percent of those waiting actually ever find transplant matches. The problem is, however, that no one knows ahead of time which 15 percent that will be. The state's data also show the procedures have poor outcomes and that most patients die after the transplants. But critics say the data was cherry-picked, as it included only patients enrolled in AHCCCS and only for a two-year period. A coalition of Arizona transplant centers, including well-known programs at the University of Arizona and the Mayo Clinic, recently gave the state data for a broader patient group and a longer time period. It showed much better outcomes. Waiting Until January State Rep. John Kavanagh, a member of the House Appropriations Committee in the Arizona Legislature, has looked at the new information. "It's a terrible situation," Kavanagh says, "but we don't want anybody to die because of a faulty data set. So if we made a mistake, we're [going to] reinstate those that require it." Kavanagh is promising a hearing when the Arizona Legislature convenes in January. He says the state can cut the money somewhere else. Meanwhile, one patient has found a private bone-marrow donor. Shepherd says he and his wife were bitter when they first learned his approval for a new heart was taken away, but they have learned to appreciate the time and the medical procedures he has already had. "If I were to die because they didn't give me the transplant, I've had the last 18 months with my kids that I wouldn't have had otherwise because AHCCCS paid for my pacemaker," Shepherd says. Now on federal disability, he will become eligible for Medicare next year. That gives him some hope whatever the Arizona Legislature does. Meanwhile, 96 other patients in Arizona wait. [/quote] Fucking disgusting.

[quote]Randy Shepherd is 36 and 6-foot-3, but he has to toss baseballs to his 3-year-old son, Nathan, while sitting in a lawn chair.[/quote] that's gotta be up there with the most depressing things i've ever read

holy christ that's sad

way to go Republicans. Hey, didn't they threaten that the Democrats were going to do this with their "socialist" health care?.

The majority of republicans are a complete waste of space on this earth.

[b]"It's a terrible situation," Kavanagh says, "but we don't want anybody to die because of a faulty data set. So if we made a mistake, we're [going to] reinstate those that require it."[/b] Way to read the whole article.

[QUOTE=zombieslaya;26197658][b]"It's a terrible situation," Kavanagh says, "but we don't want anybody to die because of a faulty data set. So if we made a mistake, we're [going to] reinstate those that require it."[/b] Way to read the whole article.[/QUOTE] [u]"Kavanagh is promising a hearing when the Arizona Legislature convenes in January. He says the state can cut the money somewhere else."[/u] Way to not read the article further. They'll have a hearing in two months and maybe (doubtfully) get something done. Two months is a long time when you need a new organ.

[QUOTE=Kagrenak;26197667][u]"Kavanagh is promising a hearing when the Arizona Legislature convenes in January. He says the state can cut the money somewhere else."[/u] Way to not read the article further. They'll have a hearing in two months and maybe (doubtfully) get something done. Two months is a long time when you need a new organ.[/QUOTE] Two months is plenty time to get the money you need for it. If someone else has the money, why shouldn't they get priority? Just because you got a shitty situation in life doesn't mean you should get a boost up. e: I'm arguing the other side for the hell of it, I don't believe most that follows. Please stop quoting me and disagreeing :colbert:

Freedom to be poor. Freedom to be sick. Freedom to die. Fucking disgusting.

[QUOTE=Xen Tricks;26197682]Two months is plenty time to get the money you need for it. If someone else has the money, why shouldn't they get priority? Just because you got a shitty situation in life doesn't mean you should get a boost up.[/QUOTE] According to [url]http://www.chfpatients.com/tx/transplant.htm[/url], a heart transplant averages at $148,000. Find that much in two months when you don't already have amazing connections.

[QUOTE=Thy Reaper;26197749]According to [url]http://www.chfpatients.com/tx/transplant.htm[/url], a heart transplant averages at $148,000. Find that much in two months when you don't already have amazing connections.[/QUOTE] Well maybe they should have planned ahead for such things. Often you don't need an organ transplant immediately, it's a long term prospect.

[QUOTE=Kagrenak;26197667]Two months is a long time when you need a new organ.[/QUOTE] Well considering average wait times already take a few months to a year in some cases to get a match depending on numerous factors it isn't that long of a time to wait. Your statement is implying that these people will die any day if they don't get a transplant now.

That's horrible :O Send him to britain. free healthcare for all

[QUOTE=Xen Tricks;26197792]Well maybe they should have planned ahead for such things. Often you don't need an organ transplant immediately, it's a long term prospect.[/QUOTE] How much money do you think people on Medicare and Medicaid make? My family has just a few thousand to save per year after living expenses, meaning it's basically impossible to afford anything like this if the insurance doesn't pay for it. Besides, the point of having insurance (such as Medicaid) is that they will pay for it if you need it. Then Arizona decides to change the rules, even for people for which the decision has already been made.

[QUOTE=zombieslaya;26197797]Well considering average wait times already take a few months to a year in some cases to get a match depending on numerous factors it isn't that long of a time to wait. Your statement is implying that these people will die any day if they don't get a transplant now.[/QUOTE] And they're placed on the list at the time at which having an organ in the projected amount of time would be only a minimal risk. Delaying that by a substantial amount of time poses major risks to the patients. (2 months is still 16.7% of a year, and increasing procedure times by that large of a percent is unacceptable). Your statements are directly saying that they're placed on the list because they only "may need" an organ at "some point". People are placed on the list when they need an organ as soon as possible.

Glad to see the republicans are putting those fucking freeloaders in their place. Maybe if you want to live you'll get a job you stupid poor people or inherit an oil fortune like the rest of us

[QUOTE=Thy Reaper;26197833]How much money do you think people on Medicare and Medicaid make? My family has just a few thousand to save per year after living expenses, meaning it's basically impossible to afford anything like this if the insurance doesn't pay for it. Besides, the point of having insurance (such as Medicaid) is that they will pay for it if you need it. Then Arizona decides to change the rules, even for people for which the decision has already been made.[/QUOTE] Well that's exactly why these sort of programs are socially crippling. If you get people inculcated to relying on these sort of things to help when they need it, they don't plan for the future and work out their own problems well and this happens.

[QUOTE=ZekeTwo;26197862]Glad to see the republicans are putting those fucking freeloaders in their place. Maybe if you want to live you'll get a job you stupid poor people or inherit an oil fortune like the rest of us[/QUOTE] Or show some back bone and take lobbying money from big corporations, You lazy bums.

[QUOTE=Xen Tricks;26197875]Well that's exactly why these sort of programs are socially crippling. If you get people inculcated to relying on these sort of things to help when they need it, they don't plan for the future and work out their own problems well and this happens.[/QUOTE] So is that why countries like Norway are in a crippling recessi- oh wait

[QUOTE=Xen Tricks;26197875]Well that's exactly why these sort of programs are socially crippling. If you get people inculcated to relying on these sort of things to help when they need it, they don't plan for the future and work out their own problems well and this happens.[/QUOTE] Because everyone can afford to save enough up to impulse buy a new home.

[QUOTE=Xen Tricks;26197875]Well that's exactly why these sort of programs are socially crippling. If you get people inculcated to relying on these sort of things to help when they need it, they don't plan for the future and work out their own problems well and this happens.[/QUOTE] People with this type of insurance are low-end income earners who spend 80-100% of their yearly income (which is already very low) on living expenses. There's no saving here, no preparing for the future. When a procedure could cost from 5-14 years of income, you will be devastated, no matter who you are.

[QUOTE=goon165;26197879]Or show some back bone and take lobbying money from big corporations, You lazy bums.[/QUOTE] Damn straight. Pull yourself up by your bootstraps and invest millions of dollars in Microsoft stock in the early 80s

[QUOTE=Kagrenak;26197845]Your statements are directly saying that they're placed on the list because they only "may need" an organ at "some point". People are placed on the list when they need an organ as soon as possible.[/QUOTE] Not really, since I never either said or implied that they "might need it" as you put it.

[IMG]http://imgur.com/2byq3.jpg[/IMG]

[QUOTE=ZekeTwo;26197884]So is that why countries like Norway are in a crippling recessi- oh wait[/QUOTE] Pff, those countries are sailing along on influx cash, not doing anything of their own. You saw how Iceland crashed, the Scandinavian countries will follow [QUOTE=Thy Reaper;26197896]People with this type of insurance are low-end income earners who spend 80-100% of their yearly income (which is already very low) on living expenses. There's no saving here, no preparing for the future. When a procedure could cost from 5-14 years of income, you will be devastated, no matter who you are.[/QUOTE] Exactly my point, they don't work to get themselves above that because they know the government safety net is there. Also oops, rated late [QUOTE=Kagrenak;26197885]Because everyone can afford to save enough up to impulse buy a new home.[/QUOTE] Maybe if they planned properly

[QUOTE=zombieslaya;26197900]Not really, since I never either said or implied that they "might need it" as you put it.[/QUOTE] You said that doubling their wait or increasing it by a large fraction isn't "that much longer to wait". They're placed on these lists at calculated times based on how long they have before they [i]absolutely need[/i] the organ.

[QUOTE=Xen Tricks;26197875]Well that's exactly why these sort of programs are socially crippling. If you get people inculcated to relying on these sort of things to help when they need it, they don't plan for the future and work out their own problems well and this happens.[/QUOTE] Where exactly would someone find support other than these programs who isn't already rolling in money or has upsurd connections?.

[QUOTE=Kagrenak;26197920]You said that doubling their wait or increasing it by a large fraction isn't "that much longer to wait". They're placed on these lists at calculated times based on how long they have before they [i]absolutely need[/i] the organ.[/QUOTE] Again implying that they are on their deathbeds and don't have a year or more to wait and not like they weren't already on a waiting list.

[QUOTE=Xen Tricks;26197916] Exactly my point, they don't work to get themselves above that because they know the government safety net is there. Also oops, rated late[/quote] Um, may I ask what fantasy land you inhabit?. They don't get them selves above that because they can't, The old standby "If you work hard, you'll be rewarded" doesn't work anymore. It's more like " whiddle you life away hoping that one day you'll be able to live marginally comfortable, get layed off, die in a gutter."

[QUOTE=zombieslaya;26198040]Again implying that they are on their deathbeds and don't have a year or more to wait and not like they weren't already on a waiting list.[/QUOTE] They were on a waiting list because [i]they will die soon after their predicted time of receiving an organ[/i]. People who have 15 months to live are placed on it expecting to get their organ in 14 months, it's run this way because it's the most efficient way of running the list.