• What's wrong with current popular video game feminism, and how to fix it. [Liana K]
    27 replies, posted
There's some sort of naked imagery in the video, so maybe don't view it at work. [video=youtube;rAjHpZawQeg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAjHpZawQeg[/video]
There are a lot of good things to like about this video (although damn do they need to learn powerpoint, lol) two minor critiques: 1.) Intent isn't as relevent as OP's video makes it seem when we are talking about the political dimension of a work of art. A great deal of our cultural scripts that play out hapen unconciously, but that doesn't make them any less nefarious. 2.) There is a distinction between sex positivity and objectifying other folks as sexual objects. The line is kinda murky (granted) but this is why the minimization of women as scantily clad eye-candy is not necessarily the same as a puritanical notion of sexuality. The point that games are a product of society is TRUE, but two small points 1.) Society is a sum of its parts, so if the product is sexist its still worthy of critique, and 2.) More importantly, how many people make this arguement ingenuously? Usually it is paired with the much broader claim that society on the whole isn't sexist. I'm willing to hear this arguement, but we gotta get past premise 1 (i.e: there is a problem with gender subordination in western cultures).
[quote]Without feminism we wouldn't have GTA[/quote] Um...
Its an interesting and provocative thought concerning the way sexuality was brought out of the bedroom and into the public sphere b/c, mostly, feminist movements of the 1970's.
This video was alright, I agreed with most of the points there, but man am I sick and tired of {social issue} in gaming. I don't see this shit to this degree and aggression in any other medium. Not movies, not comic books, not music, nowhere. Why the fuck are video games being demonized and scrutinized for these massive social problems this hard? I mean I occasionally see a thing or two about a movie or something, but I see bullshit on video games every damn day. Why?
Because you concern your life and social circles with video games. I promise you that in academic circles video games are much lower on the list of 'things people scrutinize'.
[QUOTE=Katatonic717;48641198]This video was alright, I agreed with most of the points there, but man am I sick and tired of {social issue} in gaming. I don't see this shit to this degree and aggression in any other medium. Not movies, not comic books, not music, nowhere. Why the fuck are video games being demonized and scrutinized for these massive social problems this hard? I mean I occasionally see a thing or two about a movie or something, but I see bullshit on video games every damn day. Why?[/QUOTE] Presumably because those media are far older and have already undergone this kind of discussion in some fashion, or never experienced it in the same manner as video games. You can also see it in other media if you look for it, it's just that social criticism in video games is the "hot thing" that people are talking about lately, I think.
[QUOTE=ElectricSquid;48641237]Presumably because those media are far older and have already undergone this kind of discussion in some fashion, or never experienced it in the same manner as video games. You can also see it in other media if you look for it, it's just that social criticism in video games is the "hot thing" that people are talking about lately, I think.[/QUOTE] I think it's the same thing as people criticizing DnD as Devil Worship or Jazz as sinful, all forms of media have been though scrutiny because of some scruffy old fart or some high horse moral fart getting their assholes clenched over it. This time it's amplified because the internet was invented during the climbing of Video gaming.
[QUOTE=Katatonic717;48641198]This video was alright, I agreed with most of the points there, but man am I sick and tired of {social issue} in gaming. I don't see this shit to this degree and aggression in any other medium. Not movies, not comic books, not music, nowhere. Why the fuck are video games being demonized and scrutinized for these massive social problems this hard? I mean I occasionally see a thing or two about a movie or something, but I see bullshit on video games every damn day. Why?[/QUOTE] Because you aren't paying enough attention to criticism of other mediums?
[QUOTE=CapellanCitizen;48641716]Because you aren't paying enough attention to criticism of other mediums?[/QUOTE] No one blames movies for shootings
[QUOTE=Flameon;48641224]Because you concern your life and social circles with video games. I promise you that in academic circles video games are much lower on the list of 'things people scrutinize'.[/QUOTE] Aaaactually. Videogames have always been a big field of study in sociology/psychology; just not what you'd think of as sociology. Its been in mainly military circles where a lot of mental and physical studies about gamers have been conducted such as the reaction time study and problem solving skill increase. And at least at my university, which is a technical university, a large portion of the sociology, poli sci and psychology were either focused on green tech and policy making or tech and society, especially videogames.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;48642761]No one blames movies for shootings[/QUOTE] Columbine was '99, and Natural Born Killers and Marilyn Manson were blamed for the shooting just as much as Doom was, maybe even more. And anecdotally the most recent time I remember seeing someone blame videogames for causing a shooting was Brietbart (incidentally Gamergate darling Milo).
[QUOTE=CapellanCitizen;48643204]Columbine was '99, and Natural Born Killers and Marilyn Manson were blamed for the shooting just as much as Doom was, maybe even more. And anecdotally the most recent time I remember seeing someone blame videogames for causing a shooting was Brietbart (incidentally Gamergate darling Milo).[/QUOTE] Just gotta get a milo jab in even though you have no idea if I like the guy or not, right? Doom was a fairly large target at the time. Same with CS. But okay, they weren't according to you.
[QUOTE=CapellanCitizen;48643204]Columbine was '99, and Natural Born Killers and Marilyn Manson were blamed for the shooting just as much as Doom was, maybe even more. And anecdotally the most recent time I remember seeing someone blame videogames for causing a shooting was Brietbart (incidentally Gamergate darling Milo).[/QUOTE] Okay first, damn near every single shooting has videogames blamed as a cause and second, a lot of us don't like Milo for this reason. Besides, Columbine was a long time ago, shit's changed since then.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;48643307]Just gotta get a milo jab in even though you have no idea if I like the guy or not, right? [/QUOTE] I didn't mean to suggest you did, just saying that saying that feminism is blaming video games for shootings (at least, seemed like you were, given this is a thread on feminist criticism) is myopic. And I mean, saying "nobody blames movies" isn't correct, because people have blamed movies like they've blamed video games.
[QUOTE=CapellanCitizen;48643204]Columbine was '99, and Natural Born Killers and Marilyn Manson were blamed for the shooting just as much as Doom was, maybe even more. And anecdotally the most recent time I remember seeing someone blame videogames for causing a shooting was Brietbart (incidentally Gamergate darling Milo).[/QUOTE] It's always the people that are against GG that bring GG into a discussion and then wonder "Why are you talking about it?"
[QUOTE=Flameon;48641089]There are a lot of good things to like about this video (although damn do they need to learn powerpoint, lol) two minor critiques: 1.) Intent isn't as relevent as OP's video makes it seem when we are talking about the political dimension of a work of art. A great deal of our cultural scripts that play out hapen unconciously, but that doesn't make them any less nefarious.[/QUOTE] Blaming people for things they do subconsciously is like blaming falling coconuts and tree branches for killing people. Something can't really be 'nefarious' if there was no intent in doing it, 'nefarious' indicates some kind of evil plotting involved as opposed to stupidity that can be very easily subverted through education and training. We can't stop tree branches and coconuts from falling, but we can put up a sign saying 'watch out for falling coconuts'. In the same vein, we can't stop people from developing prejudice, but we can easily educate them out of it when they do. We could actually do something to change people's minds and question their preconceptions (hence the 'here's the problem' [What's wrong with current popular video game feminism] and 'here's how to solve it' [and how to fix it]) or I guess we could just continue fear-mongering about 'nefarious' and ineffable things like what people are doing subconsciously. In one situation we actually have a solution to the problem, in the other we simply cower in the corner being afraid of the outside world. [QUOTE]2.) There is a distinction between sex positivity and objectifying other folks as sexual objects. The line is kinda murky (granted) but this is why the minimization of women as scantily clad eye-candy is not necessarily the same as a puritanical notion of sexuality. [/QUOTE] The problem is this difference is entirely subjective, not just down to the individual's tastes but also to their specific culture. What you find as sexually objectifying might be sex-positive to somebody of a different culture to you. Is it worse to let the behavior you personally disagree with continue or to possibly conduct some sort of cultural colonialism and destroy an entire culture? Unless there's some sort of clear objective line between sex-positivity and sexual objectification (maybe based on the consent of the person involved?) I think the risk of western cultural imperialism and becoming the cultural version of Christopher Columbus is too great to go down this road, espicially now that the 'net is allowing us to become more internationalized and privy to other cultures besides the US. [QUOTE]The point that games are a product of society is TRUE, but two small points 1.) Society is a sum of its parts, so if the product is sexist its still worthy of critique, and 2.) More importantly, how many people make this arguement ingenuously? Usually it is paired with the much broader claim that society on the whole isn't sexist. I'm willing to hear this arguement, but we gotta get past premise 1 (i.e: there is a problem with gender subordination in western cultures).[/QUOTE] I think you're projecting a little bit here, where did Liana say that if a product is worthy of critique it shouldn't be criticized? The point isn't whether something deserves to be criticized or not (all things should be openly questioned and criticized), the point is whether specific aspects of that thing can be fairly criticized and whether that criticism is 'true' in the sense of being objectively definable. If you can't substantiate and lay out logically exactly why you dislike something then it's not criticism, it isn't even an opinion, it's just a feeling you have. [editline]9th September 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=CapellanCitizen;48643204]Columbine was '99, and Natural Born Killers and Marilyn Manson were blamed for the shooting just as much as Doom was, maybe even more. And anecdotally the most recent time I remember seeing someone blame videogames for causing a shooting was Brietbart (incidentally Gamergate darling Milo).[/QUOTE] There is 1 school shooting per week in America, if you really have the go all the way back to 1999 to find an example of a school shooting that wasn't blamed on videogames... but was actually still blamed on video games... I uh, don't really understand your argument. People still blame video games for school shootings constantly, which is an incorrect thing to do. I mean, I understand your point, people will blame all sorts of things for school shootings, but there's only one situation when people will blame an entire medium of communication (video games) for causing violence through its 'so real it's actually training your children to steal cars' graphics and 'so interactive it's like its actually your kids are actually running over hookers' level of interaction. If nobody has blamed a movie (not all movies, or the entire medium of film, just a single movie) for school shootings since 1999, I think that just goes to prove the point further. There was a time in which every communication medium was new and people were scared of it, video games are the new rock-n-roll, 'the evil black people music' that caused people in the 1950s to lock up their daughters in case they went out to a rock concert. As a culture, we grew out of that phase but we haven't when it comes to video games. You can even go back as far as Ancient Greece, where Socrates the ancient philosopher was warning people not to indulge in this new-fangled things called Books because they would cause children to indulge in delusions of grandeur and fantasy unlike that of the real world. The arguments he used against books were remarkably similar to the ones used against video games today. [QUOTE] And I mean, saying "nobody blames movies" isn't correct, because people have blamed movies like they've blamed video games. [/QUOTE] Historically yes, they have, but do you have any examples of that happening recently? No, 1999 is not recent when there's a school shooting every week. Literally every time there is a school shooting someone blames video games for the shooting. The last famous public shooting incident that happened, a news channel apparently courted a 'professional gamer' who told them the shooter was related to the evil GamerGate movement, which turned out to be an elaborate trolling attempt that the news channel most likely deliberately fell for in order to push a narrative that 'video games are evil and will turn your kids into serial killers'. The mainstream media loves fantasizing about evil hackers on the internet (The individual known as '4chan' is a major culprit) because, just like Video Games, the internet is some new-fangled technology that the old people who watch television news are afraid of, and so they watch the news programme to know how to protect themselves. You know what, I'll just post some videos about it here: [video=youtube;kpcnnNHgPYA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpcnnNHgPYA[/video] [video=youtube;3bwL6IpYlew]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3bwL6IpYlew[/video] It's also important to distinguish the two arguments here. One is stemming off Katatonic's original post about cultural criticism: [QUOTE]This video was alright, I agreed with most of the points there, but man am I sick and tired of {social issue} in gaming. I don't see this shit to this degree and aggression in any other medium. Not movies, not comic books, not music, nowhere. Why the fuck are video games being demonized and scrutinized for these massive social problems this hard? I mean I occasionally see a thing or two about a movie or something, but I see bullshit on video games every damn day. Why? [/QUOTE] the other starts from HumanAbyss' post about school shootings: [quote]No one blames movies for shootings [/quote]
[QUOTE=itisjuly;48641145]Um...[/QUOTE] She was kind of joking, but she was more talking about how sex positive media wouldn't be exist without feminism
[QUOTE=Rossy167;48645162]She was kind of joking, but she was more talking about how sex positive media wouldn't be exist without feminism[/QUOTE] But it totally would? Sex positive media has existed long before feminism was even a thing. And how is GTA even related to sex positive media?
[QUOTE=itisjuly;48645299]But it totally would? Sex positive media has existed long before feminism was even a thing. And how is GTA even related to sex positive media?[/QUOTE] I don't necessarily agree with her, but that's the point I think she was making.
"anti-porn = anti-sex" lol what
[QUOTE=Rixxz2;48645924]"anti-porn = anti-sex" lol what[/QUOTE] I don't think you're supposed to question the video. Most of her arguments are weak.
You think the reason she wasn't able to work out how to import images into Windows Movie Maker was because she's a woman?
[QUOTE=itisjuly;48646393]I don't think you're supposed to question the video. Most of her arguments are weak.[/QUOTE] The American porn industry at the professional level is a safe job that women volunteer for. I don't see how that's a weak argument
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;48646557]The American porn industry at the professional level is a safe job that women volunteer for. I don't see how that's a weak argument[/QUOTE] What does that have to do with "anti-porn = anti-sex"? You're kinda random here.
[QUOTE=itisjuly;48646814]What does that have to do with "anti-porn = anti-sex"? You're kinda random here.[/QUOTE] Okay then whatever you say Seems your point wasn't conveyed at all and neither was mine
[QUOTE=Katatonic717;48641198]This video was alright, I agreed with most of the points there, but man am I sick and tired of {social issue} in gaming. I don't see this shit to this degree and aggression in any other medium. Not movies, not comic books, not music, nowhere. Why the fuck are video games being demonized and scrutinized for these massive social problems this hard? I mean I occasionally see a thing or two about a movie or something, but I see bullshit on video games every damn day. Why?[/QUOTE] ask any gen X-er about this and they will prove you wrong over and over again. Rock music was repeatedly demonised, and of course the movie industry has a big run in with this kind of stuff too. [editline]9th September 2015[/editline] Look, I think this whole Gamergate argument has compelling points on both side, but A. It has devolved into a shitflinging contest, B. like TotalBiscuit said, They are battling on two completely different ballfields.
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