Canada concerned about returning ISIS fighters, Justin Trudeau says
44 replies, posted
[quote]Canada is concerned about the national security threat posed by citizens who joined the Islamic State group, returning to this country, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau said Monday.
In parliament, Trudeau pledged to prosecute those who broke Canada’s anti-terrorism laws by joining the ISIS group, but also said his government would try to reintegrate them into society.
“We recognize the return of even one individual (who joined the ISIS group) may have serious national security implications,” Trudeau said.
[b]“We are going to monitor them. We are also there to help them to let go of that terrorist ideology,” he added.[/b]
Nearly 180 Canadians are known to have travelled overseas to join extremist groups. About 60 have returned to Canada, according to government figures released in 2016.[/quote]
[url]https://globalnews.ca/news/3871229/canada-concerned-returning-isis-fighters-justin-trudeau/[/url]
For some reason, I think this idea of reintegrating former ISIS members is not going to be a brilliant idea.
I wouldn't say it'd be a inherently bad idea, though chances are most of them are going to end up in mental hospitals. Those that don't though should probably not be allowed into society anyways, as I don't see how any clear headed person could join a group like that without being deliberately terroristic.
Canada's judicial system tends to have a psychological review of individuals they think might be dangerous offenders, and dangerous offenders aren't released into the general public until they're deemed they're no longer a risk. Not too worried.
Shouldn't they be... gee idk - prosecuted first? Maybe [I]then[/I] give them access to societal reintegration stuff? They joined one of the worlds most brutal terrorist agencies they should be held accountable to that.
If he's pledged to prosecute these Isis fighters then I'd like to see how the process will go. These are people who have mass executed prisoners, as well as other war crimes and fighting for a group that is known for that tells you a lot about the person.
Why are they even allowed to get back in the first place?
How are they even getting back?
That's because stripping an individual's citizenship is not a step to be taken lightly. If they return to Canada, they are prosecuted according to our laws.
Bar none if they're ISIS fighters then they deserve to be put behind bars for the rest of their lives. They knew exactly what they were getting into. You come from a western country,whether your natural born or immigrant you left where you came from to have a better life, then leave to go cause suffering in a nation that isn't your own. You deserve nothing less than a cell because all the information you had at your hands, you knew fully well what their ideology was and you wanted to go experience it.
Too lenient on terrorists.
If they want to reintroduce them into society then they need to make a registered database accessible to the public and put all of these people on it.
[QUOTE=DiBBs27;52919565]Too lenient on terrorists.
If they want to reintroduce them into society then they need to make a registered database accessible to the public and put all of these people on it.[/QUOTE]
Sorta like the sex offender database? I dunno, I mean fuck ISIS, but I really don't know if that's such a good idea. As said above, these people will be prosecuted, and only released if the parole board is confident they will not re offend.
In which case, why put everyone on edge?
EDIT: I should clarify, that I do not think that there is a likelihood many of these returning ISIS fighters will be granted release once they are eligible for parole, but again I suppose that's not a certainty.
[QUOTE=Elv02;52919580]Sorta like the sex offender database? I dunno, I mean fuck ISIS, but I really don't know if that's such a good idea. As said above, these people will be prosecuted, and only released if the parole board is confident they will not re offend.
In which case, why put everyone on edge?
EDIT: I should clarify, that I do not think that there is a likelihood many of these returning ISIS fighters will be granted release once they are eligible for parole, but again I suppose that's not a certainty.[/QUOTE]
In the chance that some of them do get released on parole, shouldn't the people who have to be their neighbors be allowed to know that there is an ex-terrorist from ISIS nearby?
But you may be right, they probably won't release them back into society.
So it's okay to run off to a faraway land to join a terrorist group so you can rape and murder 'till your heart's content, as long as you are a good noodle when you come back home.
I don't like the idea of allowing literal terrorists to walk among us, is not going to help our rising xenophobia problem. We have people that don't like foreigners, and now we're just going to let rapists and killers from a far-away land walk free among us, and more people are going to jump on the xenophobia train because they don't fucking want foreign rapists and killers in their communities. These terrorists should be tried for treason and locked up for life, they're corrupt and a danger to society. If anyone gets hurt by these people, the federal government is fully responsible.
[QUOTE=Mr. Someguy;52919683]So it's okay to run off to a faraway land to join a terrorist group so you can rape and murder 'till your heart's content, as long as you are a good noodle when you come back home.
I don't like the idea of allowing literal terrorists to walk among us, this bullshit is not going to help our rising xenophobia problem. We have people that don't like foreigners, and now we're just going to let rapists and killers from a far-away land walk free among us, and more people are going to jump on the xenophobia train because they don't fucking want foreign rapists and killers in their communities. These terrorists should be tried for treason and locked up for life, they're corrupt and a danger to society.[/QUOTE]
Hold up. I don't think anyone ever said it's 'okay'. Trudeau himself says, as quoted in the article, that he's going to make sure they're prosecuted. But Canada doesn't lock people away and throw away the key, not if there's a chance the person can be rehabilitated. We're not a prison or police state like some parts of the USA.
If the person can't be rehabilitated, they're not getting free. If they can, they eventually might, once they've served out their sentence and go before a review board.
[QUOTE=archangel125;52919705]Hold up. I don't think anyone ever said it's 'okay'. Trudeau himself says, as quoted in the article, that he's going to make sure they're prosecuted. But Canada doesn't lock people away and throw away the key, not if there's a chance the person can be rehabilitated. We're not a prison or police state like some parts of the USA.[/QUOTE]
I'm skeptical about anyone's ability to rehabilitate these people, they're a lost cause. These aren't refugees, they're rapists, murders, and war criminals. They've spent a not-insignificant portion of their lives in a warzone and being told that we are their mortal enemy and must be destroyed. And now they're coming back to a country full of exactly the kind of people they wished to destroy, and that puts civilians at risk. They are a massive risk factor and you cannot ever guarantee anyone's safety from them.
[QUOTE=Mr. Someguy;52919716]I'm skeptical about anyone's ability to rehabilitate these people, they're a lost cause. These aren't refugees, they're rapists, murders, and war criminals. They've spent a not-insignificant portion of their lives in a warzone and being told that we are their mortal enemy and must be destroyed. And now they're coming back to a country full of exactly the kind of people they wished to destroy, and that puts civilians at risk. They are a massive risk factor and you cannot ever guarantee anyone's safety from them.[/QUOTE]
I'm happy to let professionals make that call. Also, the dumb causes people fight for when they're in their teens and twenties are often things they reconsider after spending twenty-five years in a federal penitentiary.
Why. Literally, why.
[QUOTE]but also said his government would try to reintegrate them into society.[/QUOTE]
I'm so sorry Canada..
Probably the dumbest thing I've ever heard.
I honestly find this very weird. Like you understand these are people who saw ISIS ideology online, from the comfort of Canada, and thought "yea this sales pitch totally got me!" and they [I]went[/I] there to participate. This isn't some poor person under ISIS occupation who is conscripted simply for the income, some child soldier who knows no better, someone who lives in the desert of Iraq and is uneducated on the breadth of what ISIS really is, etc.
That's why I think foreign fighters should be treated harsher... they went there [I]knowing[/I] what they were getting into, and they were happy to do it.
And believe me, I understand they are Canadian citizens they are supposed to be protected by Canadian laws but it seems weirdly soft on people who knowingly joined one of the most brutal terror organizations of the last decade.
I'd be curious to see an actual case of a Canadian ISIS fighters prosecution, I'd like to hear their defense and the eventual sentence.
Honestly, the easiest way would've been for them to die in a ditch in Syria. But since they made it back here somehow, we have to deal with them.
Canada is one of the only countries who's special forces [I]weren't [/I]actively targeting and killing citizens abroad who joined ISIS. Like the SAS doing desert raids to kill ranking British ISIS members in Syria. Which half and half I can understand, extrajudicial killings of citizens isn't the most kosher thing. To not kill your own citizens abroad is commendable in a way, but in the same breath look who were dealing with here. Hard to make a judgement call.
I don't see an issue with this at all.
While it's a fairly new development against the fight against terrorism, evidence points towards that with a properly set up program.[URL="http://www.dtic.mil/docs/citations/ADA514433"] Deradicalization is totally possible[/URL]. Given that Canada can certainly keep the program well funded, and the number of returning people being only 60, it's certainly worth the attempt to help try and reintegrate them into society. Even more so, since ISIS was a fairly wide organisation, those returning could have supported it in non-combative roles, making them even more prime to reintegration into society.
Also noted some past programs, like a Dutch one in 2013, were highly successful in their methods, but lacked somewhat due to other issues such as international management, with 3 subjects showing signs of deradicalization , 2 being able to slip back out into other countries and 3 others turning out to be less radicalized than thought.
[quote=]This historical comparison raises the question whether special reintegration pro-grams are necessary to begin with. As Silke (2011) points out, the majority of extre-mists released in the UK have not re-offended despite not having participated inspecial deradicalization initiatives. Similarly, Horgan (2014b) and Barrelle (2015),observe that there will always be a number of terrorists and extremists who desistfrom violence on their own accord. [B]Bovenkerk (2011) even argues that compared to“regular” criminals, terrorists and radicals are relatively easy to reintegrate and that their recidivism rates are lower. Nevertheless, the prevailing (implicit) opinion appears to be that specialized programs are not only necessary, but promising avenues for bringing about the successful reintegration of extremist offenders(Dechesne & De Roon,2013; Gunaratna & Rubin,2011; Horgan & Altier,2012; Wil-liams & Lindsey,2014).[/B][/quote]
[URL="http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/19434472.2015.1100648"] Source, might need university for accessing[/URL]
And another study looking at initiatives in Germany:
[quote]Germany’s Violence Prevention Network (VPN) has a very different approach, one that I include here in part because they do keep records of recidivism. Individuals do not come to them asking for help; VPN goes directly to the prisons, offering their services to incarcerated youths. Some 2,500 young offenders are convicted of serious crimes per year in Germany. Assault and battery motivated by extremism is one of the most common grounds for their sentencing. The neo-Nazis tend to be in the East,while those ascribing to the jihadist doctrine tend to be in the West. VPN has worked with over 700 incarcerated youth, all of them between the ages of 17 and 21. Although all were convicted of hate crimes, not all were convicted of terrorism. VPN also identifies youths who are at risk of recruitment while they are in prison. Youths who enroll in the anti-violence program meet in groups, as well as with a coach over a period of five months. VPN says that most of their attendees have low levels of education and many of them come from families plagued by physical and emotional abuse. Youths who join the program are taught about tolerance and human dignity. Their simplistic explanations for what went wrong in their lives, which often center on blaming other races or groups, are explored, and politically and historically relevant supplementary education is provided, including, in the case of Muslim youths, by imams. Youths are often asked to take on the role of the other. Indeed, VPN says that what it is teaching them is empathy.Post-release coaching is also provided.[B] VPN reports (Cornelia Lotthammer, personal communication, July 2013) that the recidivism rate for the young men who go through the program is 13.3%, a 68% reduction compared with the 41.5% rate for juvenile offenders who did not receive the training (Lukas & Korn, 2012, p. 3). [/B][/quote]
[URL="http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/bsl.2119/abstract"] Source again probably needs uni account [/URL]
So yeah, it probably will go well.
They're terrorists and are going to be prosecuted and treated as such under Canadian law, it being ISIS makes it no different to other terrorist groups, so let's not revoke their citizenship and other awful shit like that.
[QUOTE=The golden;52920499]I would be strongly opposed to this if it weren't for the fact that ISIS had a pretty strong campaign to seek out and manipulate vulnerable people into joining the organization.
A lot of people fail to realize that many of these people didn't just roll out of bed one day and be like "I WANNA COMMIT WAR CRIMES". No, they were manipulated into doing it while they were vulnerable. They were given false promises and false hope and they bought into it. I do not think it's fair that these individuals get treated the same as the ones that joined ISIS just to blow shit up.[/QUOTE]
This too, ISIS propaganda was "fight the system" edgy teen shit taken to the extreme and that just gobbled up disenfranchised people.
[QUOTE=Electrocuter;52920547]They're terrorists and are going to be prosecuted and treated as such under Canadian law, it being ISIS makes it no different to other terrorist groups, so let's not revoke their citizenship and other awful shit like that.
This too, ISIS propaganda was "fight the system" edgy teen shit taken to the extreme and that just gobbled up disenfranchised people.[/QUOTE]
I mean nobody is denying that were conned into it. But the fact of the matter when ISIS was putting out it's propaganda like mad, you could easily find a videos of them when there just fledgling killing civilians and their newer stuff on executing different Muslim sects and Christians because they weren't their brand of Islam. No offense to it all but when all the information you have at your finger tips, the willing choice to travel Syria/Iraq and fight for an organization that was known to slaughter people enmasse isn't a a freebie. If he was pressed into service I'd be more sympathetic, but Westerns seeking to join ISIS knew what they did and they wanted part.
Not like its impossible for people to get deradicalized. Don't see why it's not worth the effort to go through the whole rehab process.
Not like they're going to get released anyways if they're still fucked up.
The thing with letting them back is, how certain you can track their movements? They could board some ship and come back, and then what?
Not saying it will happen and god forbid if it does, but imagine if 1 of these people goes and drives a car into a crowd or something. Holy shit would that ever implode in the face of the Liberal government.
[editline]25th November 2017[/editline]
[QUOTE=The golden;52920499]I would be strongly opposed to this if it weren't for the fact that ISIS had a pretty strong campaign to seek out and manipulate vulnerable people into joining the organization.
A lot of people fail to realize that many of these people didn't just roll out of bed one day and be like "I WANNA COMMIT WAR CRIMES". No, they were manipulated into doing it while they were vulnerable. They were given false promises and false hope and they bought into it. [B]I do not think it's fair that these individuals get treated the same as the ones that joined ISIS just to blow shit up.[/B][/QUOTE]
Where is the line exactly? ISIS' propaganda was the edgiest out there, half of the "appeal" was "were taking it to the enemy, we kill them in droves, join us." It's also worth noting when the person left Canada for Syria. If you joined ISIS 2015 onward that seems pretty fucking damning, how exactly could that be excusable, especially when if you were [I]really[/I] that inclined to go you could've joined Al-Qaeda in Syria or a different group that simply wasn't ISIS. I feel like the choice of ISIS says something. If you were there earlier I guess that adds some points to your "unknowingly" side. Not even that Al-Qaeda is leagues better either, but like you picked the [B]worst[/B] group to join...
I feel bad for some of the [I]local[/I] ISIS guys, like the one interview with some guy who is like 22 years old with 2 kids and a wife to support in Mosul, there was practically no employment and ISIS offered him a paycheck to simply man road checkpoints and run security. He didn't do much of anything despicable except surrender when the position he was at got surrounded. I feel like that person's situation is a ways away from someone from Canada. Someone who goes from a place of massive privileges in comparison, to play war, and play war for the "bad guys". The plane ticket they bought cost more than the guy in Mosul probably made in 6 months.
[editline]25th November 2017[/editline]
[QUOTE=Sumap;52920463]I don't see an issue with this at all.
While it's a fairly new development against the fight against terrorism, evidence points towards that with a properly set up program.[URL="http://www.dtic.mil/docs/citations/ADA514433"] Deradicalization is totally possible[/URL]. Given that Canada can certainly keep the program well funded, and the number of returning people being only 60, it's certainly worth the attempt to help try and reintegrate them into society. Even more so, since ISIS was a fairly wide organisation, those returning could have supported it in non-combative roles, making them even more prime to reintegration into society.
Also noted some past programs, like a Dutch one in 2013, were highly successful in their methods, but lacked somewhat due to other issues such as international management, with 3 subjects showing signs of deradicalization , 2 being able to slip back out into other countries and 3 others turning out to be less radicalized than thought.
[URL="http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/19434472.2015.1100648"] Source, might need university for accessing[/URL]
And another study looking at initiatives in Germany:
[URL="http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/bsl.2119/abstract"] Source again probably needs uni account [/URL]
So yeah, it probably will go well.[/QUOTE]
Also holy shit, we're gonna say a 13% possibility of recidivism is acceptable? Believe me I'm pretty above fear mongering, but that up in the air 13% is a truck driving into a market. Just feels like playing with fire, but I understand the humanity in it. And yeah I know that 13% recidivism wasn't purely jihadist, cause that study seems to cover everything.
How bout' sending them back to Iraq so they can be tried for their crimes by the country they committed them in??
[QUOTE=Blind Lulu;52922358]I think the problem is what if Iraq doesn't want to try them.[/QUOTE]
And that's not our problem.
They made their choice, and they shall now get billed for it.
[QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;52922615]And that's not our problem.
They made their choice, and they shall now get billed for it.[/QUOTE]
If Iraq specifically requests their extradition, sure. Otherwise, they're our citizens. We deal with them our way. We don't suspend rule of law when it's inconvenient.
A terrorists is a terrorists, just like a child molester is a child molester...I see no sense in trying to be nice about it. The whole "b..b.b..but they might've been pushed into it" excuse is shit, and you all know it.
They had a choice and they made the wrong one. I see no reason for them to not be thrown behind bars for the rest of their miserable lives.
[QUOTE=Daddy-of-war;52923248]A terrorists is a terrorists, just like a child molester is a child molester...I see no sense in trying to be nice about it. The whole "b..b.b..but they might've been pushed into it" excuse is shit, and you all know it.
They had a choice and they made the wrong one. I see no reason for them to not be thrown behind bars for the rest of their miserable lives.[/QUOTE]
Do you see any reason we should not follow the law? I studied the Criminal Code of Canada to a pretty fair degree while studying policing. What Trudeau described shouldn't be controversial at all, because it's just how the law operates in our country.
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.