White House backs off raising age for gun purchases, backs tigher background checks, arming teachers - Polidicks

[quote]The White House on Sunday vowed to help provide “rigorous firearms training” to some schoolteachers and formally endorsed a bill to tighten the federal background checks system, but it backed off President Trump’s earlier call to raise the minimum age to purchase some guns to 21 years old from 18 years old. Responding directly to last month’s gun massacre at a Florida high school, the administration rolled out several policy proposals that focus largely on mental health and school safety initiatives. The idea of arming some teachers has been controversial and has drawn sharp opposition from the National Education Association, the country’s largest teachers lobby, among other groups. Many of the student survivors have urged Washington to toughen restrictions on gun purchases, but such measures are fiercely opposed by the National Rifle Association, and the Trump plan does not include substantial changes to gun laws. Rather, the president is establishing a Federal Commission on School Safety, to be chaired by Education Secretary Betsy DeVos, that will explore possible solutions, such as the age requirement for purchases, officials said. DeVos characterized the administration’s efforts as “a pragmatic plan to dramatically increase school safety.” “We are committed to working quickly because there’s no time to waste,” she said on a conference call with reporters on Sunday evening. Invoking past mass school shootings, she continued, “No student, no family, no teacher and no school should have to live the horror of Parkland or Sandy Hook or Columbine again.” Democratic lawmakers and gun-control advocates accused Trump of succumbing to pressure from the NRA and other special- interest groups. “The White House has taken tiny baby steps designed not to upset the NRA, when the gun violence epidemic in this country demands that giant steps be taken,” Senate Minority Leader Charles E. Schumer (D-N.Y.) said in a statement. “Democrats in the Senate will push to go further including passing universal background checks, actual federal legislation on protection orders, and a debate on banning assault weapons.” Kris Brown, co-president of the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, said in a statement that “President Trump has offered only drips of water in response to a five-alarm fire.”[/quote] [url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/white-house-vows-to-help-arm-teachers-and-backs-off-raising-age-for-buying-guns/2018/03/11/14da0c8e-253a-11e8-bc72-077aa4dab9ef_story.html]Washington Post[/url]

The most fucking Bipolar presidency we have ever experienced... Jesus fucking H christ...

I have no words anymore.

Holy shit make up your fucking minds, I'm sure both sides can't stand this shitty back and forth from the White House.

[QUOTE=Jarokwa;53195802]arming teachers is such a rediculous idea[/QUOTE] I don't see any valid reason to prevent teachers with concealed carry permits, let alone extensive education like under the Florida bill, from carrying at work. Licensed concealed carriers have a crime rate 5-6 times lower than police so all the fears of 'what if they get mad and shoot a kid' are statistically unfounded.

[QUOTE=Jarokwa;53195802]arming teachers is such a rediculous idea[/QUOTE] It's not like they are handing out guns to teachers, Jesus It's allowing people who already carry to continue to carry while doing their job Which is much less of a ridiculous idea than gun free zones, given their track record of attracting shooters because they know they won't face resistance there

[QUOTE=catbarf;53195817]I don't see any valid reason to prevent teachers with concealed carry permits, let alone extensive education like under the Florida bill, from carrying at work. Licensed concealed carriers have a crime rate 5-6 times lower than police so all the fears of 'what if they get mad and shoot a kid' are statistically unfounded.[/QUOTE] You underestimate how poorly teachers are paid, treated, and even bullied in America. If you give a public school teacher permission to bring a pistol into the school, a kid will eventually die. There are places where teachers still hit kids

It's okay, teachers only fire their guns in [I]empty [/I]classrooms - the kids will be fine: [url]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-43217142[/url]

arming teachers is a terrible idea that wouldn't solve anything cool to see that pro gun posters are getting suckered by a terrible policy just because it sounds pro-gun

I can't believe somebody thought arming teachers was a legitimately good idea.

Teachers barely get payed the way it is and dealing with teenagers with the United States school system is the legal equivalent to psychological torture. How long until we have teachers pulling their guns on students to get them to "Calm down"? Apparently you guys want our educational system to be like fucking Starship Troopers...

I have friend who teaches band and has already told me if they start arming teachers he's going to rethink his career.

[QUOTE=catbarf;53195817]I don't see any valid reason to prevent teachers with concealed carry permits, let alone extensive education like under the Florida bill, from carrying at work. Licensed concealed carriers have a crime rate 5-6 times lower than police so all the fears of 'what if they get mad and shoot a kid' are statistically unfounded.[/QUOTE] What if the shooters target the teachers first now since everyone will know about this?

Be angry kid/student, Be under age, Have no guns at home or ways to obtain one, -> Just steal one from teacher -> Go on Rampage. isn't that possible if teachers were armed? And even then - if teacher punches kid/student back to stop them from doing that > They will probably get charged with assaulting children. or some teacher would most definitely fuck up and leave their gun where kid/student can access it and just shoot himself or someone accidentally. Honestly, it's such a fucking retarded idea, it's hard to believe it's actually considered/supported by some.

lmao teachers are overworked and underpaid as it is, do you think theyre going to throw themselves into the line of fire when the FBI wont even do so?

More shots fired in a school = good!!! /S Like really, people are gonna hit by accident

[QUOTE=arleitiss;53196130]Be angry kid/student, Be under age, Have no guns at home or ways to obtain one, -> Just steal one from teacher -> Go on Rampage. isn't that possible if teachers were armed? And even then - if teacher punches kid/student back to stop them from doing that > They will probably get charged with assaulting children. or some teacher would most definitely fuck up and leave their gun where kid/student can access it and just shoot himself or someone accidentally. Honestly, it's such a fucking retarded idea, it's hard to believe it's actually considered/supported by some.[/QUOTE] It depends on how the teacher is carrying. Generally they're not supposed to be *that* easy to just walk up and yank the gun out of it, some even require certain pull-out angles to do so smoothly I think?

I don’t feel like this is going to solve anything. Schools are still going to be shit, kids are still going to be treated like shit by school administrators, and another shooting will happen because nothing has changed to address the underlying issues.

As an avid gun owner and shit, allowing teachers to carry into schools is a really prickly and bad idea. I’d only allow it if the requirement for a teacher to carry their weapon on campus was as high as the one introduced to Florida, and regularly checked upon. Licensing can work but I don’t think this is the best way to go about it

[QUOTE=Zero-Point;53196209]It depends on how the teacher is carrying. Generally they're not supposed to be *that* easy to just walk up and yank the gun out of it, some even require certain pull-out angles to do so smoothly I think?[/QUOTE] oh I don't mean just "yanking" it out, I am sure somebody who's going for a spree - can easily just knock out or beat down say a female teacher and just take their gun taking all the time they need.

My brother had a high school science/math teacher get completely shitfaced before coming to the school, and when he showed up in class he immediately started making threats against his life and the other students. As soon as he mentioned his [i]licensed conceal carry gun[/i] was in his car, half the students panic called 911, and within 3 minutes there were a dozen MP cars around the school, and a group of fully armored and equipped MP's busted in the room and the guys face when they got a hold of him. (this was on a military base, which makes it even BETTER, because he passed through a security checkpoint to get to school). I trust teachers with guns as much as I trust a student with a gun, human beings are fallible creatures that are capable of making the worst decisions, regardless of their intelligence or mental stability.

[QUOTE=BANNED USER;53196307]My brother had a high school science/math teacher get completely shitfaced before coming to the school, and when he showed up in class he immediately started making threats against his life and the other students. As soon as he mentioned his [i]licensed conceal carry gun[/i] was in his car, half the students panic called 911, and within 3 minutes there were a dozen MP cars around the school, and a group of fully armored and equipped MP's busted in the room and the guys face when they got a hold of him. (this was on a military base, which makes it even BETTER, because he passed through a security checkpoint to get to school). I trust teachers with guns as much as I trust a student with a gun, human beings are fallible creatures that are capable of making the worst decisions, regardless of their intelligence or mental stability.[/QUOTE] I don't believe that teachers should be armed but the counterargument to this would be that if he was going to shoot students he would have just brought in the gun and done so regardless of what the law said.

[QUOTE=catbarf;53195817]I don't see any valid reason to prevent teachers with concealed carry permits, let alone extensive education like under the Florida bill, from carrying at work. Licensed concealed carriers have a crime rate 5-6 times lower than police so all the fears of 'what if they get mad and shoot a kid' are statistically unfounded.[/QUOTE] If a teacher is already licensed to carry, okay. But that isn't the crux of this argument, and I think we both know that. Part, a large part, of what this is about is giving teachers a monetary reimbursement for deciding to do this. But teachers are already underpaid, schools are underfunded, and quite often we hear about teachers bringing in supplies for their own classes out of pocket. People are shooting up the schools on a remarkably scary frequency, and rather than fix the issues that are very likely causing this(Wealth inequality, poor education, poor social mobility, financial frustrations being passed down to the kids, mental health issues, and an absurd over-proliferation of firearms) we're hearing about "arming the teachers". Don't get me wrong, I'm not opposed to the idea, if a teacher wants to carry a gun and they've proven themselves to be capable through the licensing process, fuck yeah. Let em carry. But that shouln't be a first resort, that shouldn't even be the response to this issue.

[QUOTE=catbarf;53195817]I don't see any valid reason to prevent teachers with concealed carry permits, let alone extensive education like under the Florida bill, from carrying at work. Licensed concealed carriers have a crime rate 5-6 times lower than police so all the fears of 'what if they get mad and shoot a kid' are statistically unfounded.[/QUOTE] It's not the teachers that worry me. Concealed Carry licenses are more or less what every gun owner should have - it clearly demonstrates a larger degree of firearm safety and responsibility than the general population. I'd be fine with allowing that - except that then you have firearms in a school. Elderly teacher concealed carrying? What if an irrational student finds out and assaults him, getting access to the firearm? Now you have firearms present in the schools themselves, and school shooters could use that as an opportunity to get access to a firearm. Even if the teacher is responsible, the proximity of access is problematic. I've seen teachers at my high school get assaulted by fucked up students - guns would escalate the threat of violence significantly.

[QUOTE=catbarf;53195817]I don't see any valid reason to prevent teachers with concealed carry permits, let alone extensive education like under the Florida bill, from carrying at work. Licensed concealed carriers have a crime rate 5-6 times lower than police so all the fears of 'what if they get mad and shoot a kid' are statistically unfounded.[/QUOTE] My problem with arming teachers has less to do with individual qualifications and more to do with the fact that I don't think we, as a developed nation, should have to live in a Wild West where we need guns in every school in order to keep kids safe.

[QUOTE=catbarf;53195817]I don't see any valid reason to prevent teachers with concealed carry permits, let alone extensive education like under the Florida bill, from carrying at work. Licensed concealed carriers have a crime rate 5-6 times lower than police so all the fears of 'what if they get mad and shoot a kid' are statistically unfounded.[/QUOTE] No it's still ridiculous. You know it has to be a lot more than trusting a teacher with a sound mind and sound gun discipline. You're allowing a teacher to bring a firearm in the school and in the class room. Is there no alarm bells ringing in your head that this is a terrible idea knowing how dumb kids are.

Everyone keeps bringing up the “what if they overpower you and steal your gun” argument but how often does that even happen? I already said this legislation probably wouldn’t change much, but that argument against letting people legally concealed carry seems extremely weak/unfounded. [editline]12th March 2018[/editline] [QUOTE=Craptasket;53196394]No it's still ridiculous. You know it has to be a lot more than trusting a teacher with a sound mind and sound gun discipline. You're allowing a teacher to bring a firearm in the school and in the class room. Is there no alarm bells ringing in your head that this is a terrible idea knowing how dumb kids are.[/QUOTE] Legitimate question, why are people thinking there would be a huge difference between the average person being able to carry and a teacher? Are people just extra squeamish about it because the teacher’s environment has kids around them?

[QUOTE=AlbertWesker;53196396]Everyone keeps bringing up the “what if they overpower you and steal your gun” argument but how often does that even happen? I already said this legislation probably wouldn’t change much, but that argument against letting people legally concealed carry seems extremely weak/unfounded. [editline]12th March 2018[/editline] Legitimately I want to know, why are people thinking there would be a huge difference between the average person being able to carry and a teacher. Are people just extra squeamish about it because their environment is filled with minors/kids?[/QUOTE] What happens if the gun is left somewhere where a kid can get hold of it? What happens if it's left unsecured in a classroom? What happens if one of the teachers themselves decide to go fucking postal? And btw it's not exactly cheap to get proper secure lockboxes for putting weapons aside, so good luck finding the funds for that knowing how underfunded american schools are

[QUOTE=AlbertWesker;53196396] Are people just extra squeamish about it because the teacher’s environment has kids around them?[/QUOTE] Yes, as they should be. High schoolers are fucking retarded (not all of them obviously, but I'm talking about the worst examples here). I'd give the country a month of this law being implemented before some inner city teacher got jumped for their weapon.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;53196332]If a teacher is already licensed to carry, okay. But that isn't the crux of this argument, and I think we both know that. Part, a large part, of what this is about is giving teachers a monetary reimbursement for deciding to do this. But teachers are already underpaid, schools are underfunded, and quite often we hear about teachers bringing in supplies for their own classes out of pocket. People are shooting up the schools on a remarkably scary frequency, and rather than fix the issues that are very likely causing this(Wealth inequality, poor education, poor social mobility, financial frustrations being passed down to the kids, mental health issues, and an absurd over-proliferation of firearms) we're hearing about "arming the teachers". Don't get me wrong, I'm not opposed to the idea, if a teacher wants to carry a gun and they've proven themselves to be capable through the licensing process, fuck yeah. Let em carry. But that shouln't be a first resort, that shouldn't even be the response to this issue.[/QUOTE] I agree entirely, this shouldn't be the answer. I think it's stupid that the Trump administration's solution to deep-seated social problems is to just throw guns at the problem. But as far as allowing competent, licensed individuals who carry concealed- why not? All I've seen so far is what seems like unfounded speculation. Alabama, Oregon, Utah, Alaska, Hawaii, New Hampshire, and Rhode Island all [B]already[/B] allow concealed carriers to carry firearms in schools, and Wyoming, Kansas, and Arizona allow it with some additional restrictions. That's a full fifth of the United States that already allows CCers to carry firearms in schools. We know there are teachers already carrying firearms at work. Have I missed all the stories about kids overpowering their teachers and stealing their guns, or teachers going off the deep end and killing their students? Where's the evidence that any of this is a reasonable fear? Seriously, yes, we should be addressing the myriad issues that result in mass shootings in schools rather than slapping band-aid 'solutions' on. No disagreement there. I just think the opposition to concealed carry (voluntary, not shoving guns into unwilling teachers' hands) is generally reliant on hypotheticals that are demonstrably at odds with the available data. If anyone has an argument that goes beyond the 'what if a kid steals their gun???' speculation I'm all ears.