[QUOTE=http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41493014] Catalonia will declare independence from Spain in a matter of days, the leader of the autonomous region has told the BBC.
In his first interview since Sunday's referendum, Carles Puigdemont said his government would "act at the end of this week or the beginning of next".
Meanwhile, Spain's King Felipe VI said organisers of the vote put themselves "outside the law".
He said the situation in Spain was "extremely serious", calling for unity.
When asked what he would do if the Spanish government were to intervene and take control of Catalonia's government, Mr Puigdemont said it would be "an error which changes everything".
Mr Puigdemont said there was currently no contact between the government in Madrid and his devolved administration.[/quote]
I know there's a few Catalan threads already, but those are on the violence of the referendum.
[B]A quick update on the speech given (10/10):[/B]
[quote]"Today I assume the mandate for Catalonia to become an independent state in the form of a republic," says Mr Puigdemont.
But he adds: "We're suspending the declaration of independence for a few weeks, because we want a reasonable dialogue, a mediation with the Spanish state."[/quote]
This could get messy very quickly. I don't think Spain will go for the violent crackdown to stop this because of how much international damage it will do but I honestly don't know enough about Spain to say definitively.
Spain is not gonna let this go quietly. If anything, this is gonna escalate quiet a bit.
For anyone in the region, what is the chances of Catalans taking up arms in order to fight for this independence? If they don't I suspect the leaders of this whole thing are going to be arrested and exiled for some obscure laws.
[QUOTE=download;52744930]This could get messy very quickly. I don't think Spain will go for the violent crackdown to stop this because of how much international damage it will do but I honestly don't know enough about Spain to say definitively.[/QUOTE]
The international damage was already done the moment Spain sent in their troops to assault peaceful citizens.
[editline]4th October 2017[/editline]
[QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;52744934]Spain is not gonna let this go quietly. If anything, this is gonna escalate quiet a bit.
For anyone in the region, what is the chances of Catalans taking up arms in order to fight for this independence? If they don't I suspect the leaders of this whole thing are going to be arrested and exiled for some obscure laws.[/QUOTE]
We won't be taking up arms. At least I really hope so for the sake of not having any more people hurt or even killed.
[QUOTE=DaWhatTheFox;52744940]The international damage was already done the moment Spain sent in their troops to assault peaceful citizens.
[/QUOTE]
It will be a lot lose if they turn it into a war.
The smartest thing Spanish gov should do is return them their greater autonomy that they lost in 2010. May be too late though.
[QUOTE=download;52744945]It will be a lot lose if they turn it into a war.[/QUOTE]
Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Spain pretty fucked as a nation if Catalonia achieves independence and sets a precedent for other regions? Not advocating oppression by central government but isn't the country at risk of falling apart completely unless they manage to derail this independence train? Or have I fallen to propaganda
[QUOTE=Im Crimson;52744960]Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Spain pretty fucked as a nation if Catalonia achieves independence and sets a precedent for other regions? Not advocating oppression by central government but isn't the country at risk of falling apart completely unless they manage to derail this independence train? Or have I fallen to propaganda[/QUOTE]
Off the top of my head the only other major independence movement in Spain is the Basque.
[editline]4th October 2017[/editline]
I think. I don't know huge amounts about Spain.
If Catalonia gets independence (I don't think they will, Spain could execute article 155) it will fuel more separatist movements.
The EU also said that they don't want Catalonia to go, It'll make a lot of things harder.
This feels like history is being made, sure Catalonia was always very strong about their potential independance but right now they are really going for it.
Although I have to say that this will probably not end very peacefully at all.
Oh boy here we go, good job Spain
you know if spain had just given them some more autonomy in the first place none of this would have probably happened
I blame the Spanish government's disastrous way they handled this whole problem.
this independence is the same type of Lega Nord type of independence of lombardy asked only because of money, not because the population is getting repressed or unrepresented.
Sorry but this is my thought. I study spanish and spain, and before the economic crisis they NEVER asked about independence.
[QUOTE=MarcusSmith;52745166]this independence is the same type of Lega Nord type of independence of lombardy asked only because of money, not because the population is getting repressed or unrepresented.
Sorry but this is my thought. I study spanish and spain, and before the economic crisis they NEVER asked about independence.[/QUOTE]
Wasn't independence a thing they always wanted though? From what I know of the Catalonian folks they're very proud of their... Well, heritage for lack of a better word.
Probably doesn't help that Catalonia is where the money is, across all of Spain.
[QUOTE=MarcusSmith;52745166]this independence is the same type of Lega Nord type of independence of lombardy asked only because of money, not because the population is getting repressed or unrepresented.
Sorry but this is my thought. I study spanish and spain, and before the economic crisis they NEVER asked about independence.[/QUOTE]
from what i have seen, the whole independence movement stems from the fact that catalonians demanded more autonomy in the early 2000s and were granted it in 2006, only then for many of the concessions to be rescinded a few years later which deeply angered the catalonians
i don't have the most information on this out there, but it seems very unfair to characterise this as a post-economic crisis thing when this has been going on for a while, and that the population is somehow being selfish (when the original promises made were rescinded). i honestly think that if spain had simply allowed catalonia the autonomy it had been originally promised in 2006 you wouldn't have had this
historically granting autonomy to people is enough to fix most problems. if you try to take power away from these nations then the people get angry and rebel, which is what is happening now. the more the spanish state clamps down, the harder it is for future concessions to work. by going back on their promises and mistreating the people a massive division has been created and i'd say the spanish government is largely at fault for this
I'm very dubious about this. I've got a number of issues with the whole idea of Catalonian independence and how they are going about it. That said, the Spanish government has handled this terribly and have only acted to stoke the fire.
A guy who lived in Catalonia for a while told me Catalonian residents are forced to pay double taxes; the regular taxes for living in Spain on top of the taxes for living in Catalonia. I wonder if autonomy would change that?
...It kind of explains itself, doesn't it?
I really would hate to see Spain try to flex it's muscles by sending the military to Barcelona and then seeing extremists try to one up them
The world doesn't need the Spanish version of the troubles
[QUOTE=fruxodaily;52745205]I really would hate to see Spain try to flex it's muscles by sending the military to Barcelona and then seeing extremists try to one up them
The world doesn't need the Spanish version of the troubles[/QUOTE]
Wanna bet both of those things happen anyway? :v:
[QUOTE=Recurracy;52745193]A guy who lived in Catalonia for a while told me Catalonian residents are forced to pay double taxes; the regular taxes for living in Spain on top of the taxes for living in Catalonia. I wonder if autonomy would change that?
...It kind of explains itself, doesn't it?[/QUOTE]
If that's the case, then it's a lot more understandable. However, I still question the legitimacy of their declaration somewhat. Turnout for the referendum was only 42%. Of that, 90% voted for independence. Therefore, if my maths is right, only 37.8% of the Catalonian population has voted for independence.
While Catalonia leaving is bad news for the EU in general, Spain has a huge responsability with that sentiment. If the gouvernement treated them with respect in the first place, they wouldn't want to leave the country that bad. It's fucking ridiculous how violent they were towards their own citizens, like what, you think smashing some heads will convince them to stay? If Spain were not huge idiots about it and gave them some respect we wouldn't be in that situation.
-snip-
[QUOTE=Recurracy;52745193]A guy who lived in Catalonia for a while told me Catalonian residents are forced to pay double taxes; the regular taxes for living in Spain on top of the taxes for living in Catalonia. I wonder if autonomy would change that?
...It kind of explains itself, doesn't it?[/QUOTE]
Well, I'm sorry to say that he lied to you, although I don't blame him since almost every single person that I know of fails to understand the convoluted structure that underlies the spanish autonomical financing system (there are shared taxes, transferred taxes and also funds, also there are some issues with the regularization of their balances and outstanding accounts with the central government) .
Spanish income tax, which is one of said shared taxes, is structured in two sections, the state part and the autonomous community part, the [URL="http://www.agenciatributaria.es/AEAT.internet/Inicio/Ayuda/Manuales__Folletos_y_Videos/Manuales_de_ayuda_a_la_presentacion/Ejercicio_2016/_Ayuda_Modelo_100/8__Cumplimentacion_IRPF__II_/8_6__Cuota_integra/8_6_1__Gravamen_de_la_base_liquidable_general/8_6_1_1__Cuota_integra_estatal/8_6_1_1__Cuota_integra_estatal.html"]first one[/URL] being fixed by the central government for the whole of spain, the [URL="http://www.agenciatributaria.es/AEAT.internet/Inicio/Ayuda/Manuales__Folletos_y_Videos/Manuales_de_ayuda_a_la_presentacion/Ejercicio_2016/_Ayuda_Modelo_100/8__Cumplimentacion_IRPF__II_/8_6__Cuota_integra/8_6_1__Gravamen_de_la_base_liquidable_general/8_6_1_2__Cuota_integra_autonomica/8_6_1_2__Cuota_integra_autonomica.html"]second one[/URL] can be freely set by the respective governments of each autonomous community.
So no, they don't pay double taxes, it's just that instead of having the state determining a fixed tax rate for each earning step in the ladder, they set one part and leave the other for each community to set as they will.
[QUOTE=Recurracy;52745193]A guy who lived in Catalonia for a while told me Catalonian residents are forced to pay double taxes; the regular taxes for living in Spain on top of the taxes for living in Catalonia. I wonder if autonomy would change that?
...It kind of explains itself, doesn't it?[/QUOTE]
You realize that it's like that everywhere in Spain.
Whether you live in Catalonia or Madrid, your income tax is made up from a regional and a federal tax rate.
edit:ninja'd
[QUOTE=Tidusete;52745237]Well, I'm sorry to say that he lied to you, although I don't blame him since almost every single person that I know of fails to understand the convoluted structure that underlies the spanish autonomical financing system (there are shared taxes, transferred taxes and also funds, also there are some issues with the regularization of their balances and outstanding accounts with the central government) .
Spanish income tax, which is one of said shared taxes, is structured in two sections, the state part and the autonomous community part, the [URL="http://www.agenciatributaria.es/AEAT.internet/Inicio/Ayuda/Manuales__Folletos_y_Videos/Manuales_de_ayuda_a_la_presentacion/Ejercicio_2016/_Ayuda_Modelo_100/8__Cumplimentacion_IRPF__II_/8_6__Cuota_integra/8_6_1__Gravamen_de_la_base_liquidable_general/8_6_1_1__Cuota_integra_estatal/8_6_1_1__Cuota_integra_estatal.html"]first one[/URL] being fixed by the central government for the whole of spain, the [URL="http://www.agenciatributaria.es/AEAT.internet/Inicio/Ayuda/Manuales__Folletos_y_Videos/Manuales_de_ayuda_a_la_presentacion/Ejercicio_2016/_Ayuda_Modelo_100/8__Cumplimentacion_IRPF__II_/8_6__Cuota_integra/8_6_1__Gravamen_de_la_base_liquidable_general/8_6_1_2__Cuota_integra_autonomica/8_6_1_2__Cuota_integra_autonomica.html"]second one[/URL] can be freely set by the respective governments of each autonomous community.
So no, they don't pay double taxes, it's just that instead of having the state determining a fixed tax rate for each earning step in the ladder, they set one part and leave the other for each community to set as they will.[/QUOTE]
Heh, shows how much I know :v: Thanks for the information though, really helps clear things up.
Is it a system sort of comparable to paying taxes to a municipality?
[QUOTE=Tidusete;52745237]Well, I'm sorry to say that he lied to you, although I don't blame him since almost every single person that I know of fails to understand the convoluted structure that underlies the spanish autonomical financing system (there are shared taxes, transferred taxes and also funds, also there are some issues with the regularization of their balances and outstanding accounts with the central government) .
Spanish income tax, which is one of said shared taxes, is structured in two sections, the state part and the autonomous community part, the [URL="http://www.agenciatributaria.es/AEAT.internet/Inicio/Ayuda/Manuales__Folletos_y_Videos/Manuales_de_ayuda_a_la_presentacion/Ejercicio_2016/_Ayuda_Modelo_100/8__Cumplimentacion_IRPF__II_/8_6__Cuota_integra/8_6_1__Gravamen_de_la_base_liquidable_general/8_6_1_1__Cuota_integra_estatal/8_6_1_1__Cuota_integra_estatal.html"]first one[/URL] being fixed by the central government for the whole of spain, the [URL="http://www.agenciatributaria.es/AEAT.internet/Inicio/Ayuda/Manuales__Folletos_y_Videos/Manuales_de_ayuda_a_la_presentacion/Ejercicio_2016/_Ayuda_Modelo_100/8__Cumplimentacion_IRPF__II_/8_6__Cuota_integra/8_6_1__Gravamen_de_la_base_liquidable_general/8_6_1_2__Cuota_integra_autonomica/8_6_1_2__Cuota_integra_autonomica.html"]second one[/URL] can be freely set by the respective governments of each autonomous community.
So no, they don't pay double taxes, it's just that instead of having the state determining a fixed tax rate for each earning step in the ladder, they set one part and leave the other for each community to set as they will.[/QUOTE]
Almost got ninja'd, prepared a nice paragraph about this.
Might as well add to it:
Catalonia is currently the one with bigger autonom. comm. taxes (even when a pact in 2015 suggested lowering them, which other communities did), and with the most out of all Spain:
[IMG]http://e04-elmundo.uecdn.es/elmundo/2016/graficos/dic/impuestos/ImpMapa-660.jpg[/IMG]
I'd be willing to George Orwell this if it comes to a revolution. I may not be very supportive of independence movements after figuring out what a buttfuck of misinformation Brexit was, but after how Spain has treated them these last few weeks, I think they deserve something better.
[QUOTE=Recurracy;52745250]Heh, shows how much I know :v: Thanks for the information though, really helps clear things up.
Is it a system sort of comparable to paying taxes to a municipality?[/QUOTE]
Municipalities also have their own taxes, the most known ones for mecanized vehicles and real estate. So it's three layers of taxes, for better or for worse.
That sounds very risky to leave suddenly. They're going to suffer without a plan to join the EU.
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