Anti-NATO protestants in Lisbon, 45 arrests so far - Polidicks

Basically, people from various countries went to protest against NATO, doing stupid shit like chaining themselves to each others with bycicle chains and cuffs, only to discover that the number of GNR(NRG, National Republican Guard (the police for when things get rough)) and PSP(Public security police(normal police)) was not only much bigger than the number of protestants, but they also had the means to unchain the people, making the chaining absolutely pointless. But otherwise, the manifestations have been fairly peaceful. [url]http://tv2.rtp.pt/noticias/?t=Manifestantes-anti-NATO-contra-a-guerra-no-Parque-das-Nacoes.rtp&headline=20&visual=9&article=393345&tm=8[/url] It's in Portuguese but not only is it a video but some blokes speak English as well. Since midnight of the 16th, 251 induviduals have been forbidden to enter Portuguese territory due to false documents and suspicious items.

catholics suck, protestants ftw

But I thought NATO was a well accepted organization.

[QUOTE=DainBramageStudios;26180189]catholics suck, protestants ftw[/QUOTE] oh I made a spelling mistake, I'll wait until a mod fixes it

Too few, I hope they get quite a few more. [editline]20th November 2010[/editline] [QUOTE=Canuhearme?;26180226]But I thought NATO was a well accepted organization.[/QUOTE] Not for these people. These are the typical anarchist teens that will protest against anything. Of course there are some protesting certain NATO things they disagree with and do so peacefully, but most are just anarchists wanting to fight the police.

NATO is a mutual defense organization, wouldn't you kind of want to be a part?

[QUOTE=acds;26180284]Too few, I hope they get quite a few more.[/QUOTE] They will because although most people at the protests are peaceful, some WILL think that throwing eggs at GNR/PSP officers will make Obama say "let's get the fuck out of here"

[QUOTE=Canuhearme?;26180226]But I thought NATO was a well accepted organization.[/QUOTE] People will protest anything. Remember the Westboro Baptist Church protesting at Soldier's Funerals? Yeah.

[IMG]http://www.sullivan-county.com/identity/lutherpic.gif[/IMG] Well known example of an Anti-NATO protestant.

[QUOTE=Zambies!;26180299]NATO is a mutual defense organization, wouldn't you kind of want to be a part?[/QUOTE] Some people would rather it be the Warsaw Pact.

[QUOTE=*Freezorg*;26180257]What does this have to do with religion at all[/QUOTE] You said protestants instead of protesters.

[QUOTE=Grotsky;26180585]You said protestants instead of protesters.[/QUOTE] Oh, I see. I'd change it if I could. But I can't.

[QUOTE=Zambies!;26180299]NATO is a mutual defense organization, wouldn't you kind of want to be a part?[/QUOTE] But at this point it's just an extension of America's political power. Defense is a strong word for invading countries where most people can't read, never mind form an informed opinion of current events.

[img]http://charliewhitlow.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/martin-luther.jpg[/img] Martin Luther all up in this mother fucker.

Look, my country on facepunch. I like it when some protesters dressed with suits decided to spill huge amount of red paint on themselves, to symbolize the blood politicians have on their hands.

[QUOTE=Canuhearme?;26180226]But I thought NATO was a well accepted organization.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Tukimoshi;26180376]People will protest anything. Remember the Westboro Baptist Church protesting at Soldier's Funerals? Yeah.[/QUOTE] What is unreasonable about protesting NATO? It is sugar-coated to be a mutual defence organisation, but it has been used as a means to secure the hegemony of the larger member states. NATO tended to interfere in the local politics of a lot of nations and is currently obliging support for a war in Afghanistan that not everyone is behind. Never mind shit like the "fall-back" armies that doubled as screwing with internal politics of the member nations, like Operation Gladio in Italy.

[QUOTE=Destroyertf;26184378]Look, my country on facepunch. I like it when some protesters dressed with suits decided to spill huge amount of red paint on themselves, to symbolize the blood politicians have on their hands.[/QUOTE] Except they look like idiots and policians are just people who studied lots and wanted to improve the country but found out it's not an easy task like everyone think it is. And yes, it's my country too. [editline]20th November 2010[/editline] [QUOTE=MercZ;26185303]What is unreasonable about protesting NATO? It is sugar-coated to be a mutual defence organisation, but it has been used as a means to secure the hegemony of the larger member states. NATO tended to interfere in the local politics of a lot of nations and is currently obliging support for a war in Afghanistan that not everyone is behind. Never mind shit like the "fall-back" armies that doubled as screwing with internal politics of the member nations, like Operation Gladio in Italy.[/QUOTE] Except people [B]love[/B] to make things seem worst than they really are

[QUOTE=MercZ;26185303]What is unreasonable about protesting NATO? It is sugar-coated to be a mutual defence organisation, but it has been used as a means to secure the hegemony of the larger member states. NATO tended to interfere in the local politics of a lot of nations and is currently obliging support for a war in Afghanistan that not everyone is behind. [B]Never mind shit like the "fall-back" armies that doubled as screwing with internal politics of the member nations, like Operation Gladio in Italy.[/B][/QUOTE] I don't see how this is a bad thing, NATO was smart enough to realize that if the Warsaw Pact was to invade, then some countries [I]would[/I] be overrun, this just helps with guerrilla operations. Also, the bigger military in a defense organization would be expected to play a larger role in the alliance, but country proximity to potential threats would be just as important.

[quote] but they also had the means to unchain the people, making the chaining absolutely pointless.[/quote] Got to hate those amateurs.

What all genocides have in common is that the people behind it always had a "logical" reason to kill.

[QUOTE=*Freezorg*;26185494] Except people [B]love[/B] to make things seem worst than they really are[/QUOTE] God forbid if people don't want to be sheep. [QUOTE=Canuhearme?;26186467]I don't see how this is a bad thing, NATO was smart enough to realize that if the Warsaw Pact was to invade, then some countries [I]would[/I] be overrun, this just helps with guerrilla operations. Also, the bigger military in a defense organization would be expected to play a larger role in the alliance, but country proximity to potential threats would be just as important.[/QUOTE] Well if you take it at face value like a lot of people did than yes, that is what it seemed to be. However, you missed the point of my post all together- these fall-back groups were doing other things in the mean time. Operation Gladio is now suspected of being responsible, or at least significantly worsening, the "Years of Lead" in Italy when political violence reached a polarising point, for the purpose of a strategy of tension. This has become an issue to the point that Operation Gladio is being investigated by the EU and other courts to see the degree of interference and possibly links to false-flag attacks they carried out for their agenda.

[QUOTE=MercZ;26192030]God forbid if people don't want to be sheep. [/QUOTE] ...here we go again

[QUOTE=MercZ;26192030]These fall-back groups were doing other things in the mean time. Operation Gladio is now suspected of being responsible, or at least significantly worsening, the "Years of Lead" in Italy when political violence reached a polarising point, for the purpose of a strategy of tension. This has become an issue to the point that Operation Gladio is being investigated by the EU and other courts to see the degree of interference and possibly links to false-flag attacks they carried out for their agenda.[/QUOTE] While false flag operations are abit underhanded, they were quite justified as they contributed significantly to the suppression of communism in Europe.

Why would you protest NATO? These people probably don't even know what NATO is, they just protest so they can get away with breaking shit and yelling at police.

[QUOTE=Micr0;26202065]Why would you protest NATO? These people probably don't even know what NATO is, they just protest so they can get away with breaking shit and yelling at police.[/QUOTE] Exactly The one single dude who did speak portuguese(other than the PSP officer)(01:09) said "Those guys from the war aren't here doing anything, there are people starving to death and they are spending the money on this" No idea.

[QUOTE=Gentlemanne;26200733]While false flag operations are abit underhanded, they were quite justified as they contributed significantly to the suppression of communism in Europe.[/QUOTE] Except, you know, a lot of people that got killed weren't even "communists". More over even the Communists that did exist in Western Europe weren't typically overly pro-Soviet- many in fact gravitated away after the so-called Czech spring and wanted little to do with them. Some were more concerned about the Domestic Affairs in their own countries- and this typically meant they wanted a withdrawal from NATO and other supranational organisations. Once again you guys are missing the point. "Strategy of Tension" doesn't mean anything to you? Let me bring up some examples from this period in Italian history: To understand this point in Italy you had to know what Italy was going through. The so-called "Years of Lead" referred to a period that lasted from the late 1960s into the early 1980s, involving violence perpetrated by far-left groups, notably the Red Brigades, and a host of Far-Right Neo-Fascist groups. And of course, the subsequent response by the government. This caused significant political turmoil and issues. The government went into a period of political repression and many critics of the government were either singled out for being Communist subversives or fascists. This is ignoring of course the large number of Italian citizens that were killed in the process- tallies vary from a few hundred to the thousands. However with investigations later on by various groups, it is suspected this was part of the Strategy of Tension advanced by the western nations to ensure that Italy wouldn't have a political atmosphere that would cause problems in their sphere of influence. This was attempted previously in Greece that led to the Miltiary Junta, with the military coups in Turkey, and later Operation Condor and the Chilean Coup- all with the pretext of stopping Communism by imposing dictatorships. Though there was a possibility that Italy would leave NATO, there was not really significant evidence they would turn around and join the Warsaw Pact instead. The PCI (Italian Communist Party) by this point had essentially settled for Italian domestic issues, and while being more warm to the Soviet Union, had no plan to join the Warsaw Pact as few of their politicians cared much for it. This process would begin with the Piazza Fontana bombings in 1969, which arguably started this period. It was suspected that the Red Brigades did this, but investigations and later inquiries would lead to a different conclusion that this was either carried out by National Action or the New Order neo-fascist groups, with support by intelligence agencies acting in tandem with Gladio. This however started the "state of emergency" in Italy which lead to widespread violence and political repression. There were numerous more bombings and murders, a notable one with the 1972 Peteano massacre. This involved a car bombing in the Peteano Plaza which killed three policemen and wounded many more. Again, this was attributed to the Red Brigades. However a suspect was caught sometime after this period ended, by the name of Vincenzo Vinciguerra. In his 1984 trial Vinciguerra described how he had been the one to carry out the bombing, and promptly afterwards was whisked away by Gladio operatives into Francoist Spain. He said his attack, among the many others, were meant to exacerbate tensions in Italy to the effect of ensuring a strong pro-NATO group remained in power of the political apparatus of Italy. In his statement to The Guardian: [quote]"The terrorist line was followed by camouflaged people, people belonging to the security apparatus, or those linked to the state apparatus through rapport or collaboration. I say that every single outrage that followed from 1969 fitted into a single, organised matrix... Avanguardia Nazionale, like Ordine Nuovo (the main right-wing terrorist group active during the 1970s), were being mobilised into the battle as part of an anti-communist strategy originating not with organisations deviant from the institutions of power, but from within the state itself, and specifically from within the ambit of the state's relations within the Atlantic Alliance."[/quote] He would also become the first to mention the existence of Gladio, which had until that point been a state secret and unknown to the public. [quote]"With the massacre of Peteano and with all those that have followed, the knowledge should now be clear that there existed a real live structure, occult and hidden, with the capacity of giving a strategic direction to the outrages. [This structure] lies within the states itself. There exists in Italy a secret force parallel to the armed forces, composed of civilians and military men, in an anti-Soviet capacity, that is, to organize a resistance on Italian soil against a Russian army."[/quote] Of course this came with the implication that Gladio in Italy was serving the interests of other groups- possibly other nations- not that of the Italian people or their security. It was later revealead that Gladio had been formed in the 1950s as part of an agreement between the security agencies of the United States and Italy, and in turn became the largest due to the influence of the PCI in the country. This violence continued and arrests became widespread, as did a number of infringements on liberties by various people across the political spectrum who only really shared that they were vocal of NATO policy. This process would heat up and reach its peak with the assassination of Prime Minister Aldo Moro in 1978. Aldo Moro was part of the Christian Democrat Party- a centrist and centre-right political party that dominated Italian politics through much of the Cold War. Aldo Moro however made the unorthodox decision to try and reach out to the PCI (Italian Communist Party)- the largest opposition in Italy- to make a unity government and get Italy through its crises. Unsurprisingly this was not received well by other country leaders, NATO, or the United States. For one, Henry Kissenger and an aide, when talking with Moro, relayed him this message. [quote]"You must abandon your policy of bringing all the political forces in your country into direct collaboration...or you will pay dearly for it."[/quote] Moro's widow would later recount that following this meeting her husband was visably shaken, and considered resigning from his post. For what ever reason he went to the chamber anyways to secure the "Historic Compromise" between himself and the PCI's Enrico Berlinguer- but en route he was kidnapped. For 54 days he was kept in captivity, at the end of which he was killed. In the process a Red Brigades cell would release their statements about what they were doing and their aims. With the Red Brigades participation in Aldo Moro's death, the PCI (who themselves were victims of Red Brigades attacks too) were effectively isolated from political participation because of the relationship between the PCI and Red Brigades by nature of their Communist stances. Many years later people began to come out about some of the true nature behind this, and the circumstances that led up to it. Steve Pieczenik, a member of Jimmy Carter's state department, was interviewed in 2006 about the Aldo Moro hostage crisis. He would state that a "decision" had taken place to have Moro eliminated after he revealed state secrets alluding to Gladio in one of his letters during his detension. He simply states, [quote]We had to sacrifice Aldo Moro to maintain the stability of Italy[/quote] There is also still disputes over the Red Brigade cell itself. Some accounts say that the weapons that were confiscated were a type not typically used by the Red Brigades, but weapons used by an elite wing of the Bundeswehr- German armed forces. It's believed that the Bundeswehr had been the one supplying the stockpiles of stay-behind armies in Europe, including those in Italy. And finally the Bologna bombings of 1980. This was carried out by the Neo-Fascist Nuclei Armati Rivoluzionari and killed 85 innocent people. Now for people who took it at face value, this was just far-right violence. However, as investigations went in further, it revealed some interesting things. For one thing, one of the instigators- Licio Gelli. Licio Gelli was himself a "former" OSS and CIA operative, and was also heading the P2 Lodge (A criminal front using a Masonc Lodge for cover- bankrolled for the Vatican for some shady figuers and caused a massive bank crash later on). It began an issue of why foreign intelligence bodies were acting in Italy- and how they were able to act with such imputence and be able to go back into the shadows- this is the function of Gladio in Italy. The existence of Gladio was only publically acknowledged in 1990 by Giulio Andreotti of the Christian Democrats. Since then there were a lot of investigations into the matter that have shown a different face to what happened during the Years of Lead. Though unfortunately, the damage was already done, and few people could care about something that by this poitn happened 40 years ago. Now this will probably fly over all your heads because it won't jive with the fact that NATO could have done something wrong, but I hope it is enlightening for some of you who keep an open mind. If you want to read up more take a look at these two pdfs- it goes ad naseum into Gladio but it is fairly informative. [url]http://www.psa.ac.uk/journals/pdf/5/2005/Ganser.pdf[/url] For those of you who are in uni or some other institution that has access to journal data bases, look up "The Italian 'Stay-Behind' network - The origins of operation 'Gladio' " It's pretty good too.

[QUOTE=MercZ;26207599] *wall of text*[/QUOTE] Ok.

[QUOTE=MercZ;26207599]history lesson[/QUOTE] To the other people on this forum; Have you ever wanted to [B]not[/B] read a wall of text as much as this one?

[QUOTE=MercZ;26207599]needless text[/QUOTE] Hey, not all of us are interested in a history lesson on Italian politics. Why don't you find more issues to touch upon instead of just going way too in-depth on one?

You guys asked what is so bad about NATO- I said it in a few words. More denial, then I have to bring out evidence relating to a tense period in Italy. Don't blame me if the truth is too hard to swallow- there is a reason why people protest NATO- it has blood on its hand, and it's not just in Afghanistan but in Europe itself. I didn't even bother mentioning Piano Solo or Golpe Borghese, the attempted coups and purges that Gladio nearly carried out. Operation Gladio screwed with many nations for the purpose of propping up NATO to the interest of the US foreign policy. A lot of people got needlessly killed in bombings and assassinations, very few of whom were even "Communist". There was the need to create tension to create a political scenario favorable to them. So apologize if it seems so unnecessary to break the mindless circlejerk in this thread. Really though this is how it has gone on- people don't care. You don't need to arrest people or censor anything if people ignore or block out information. There's a lot of information about Gladio now and how NATO was really used- it's investigated by the nations that were affected by it- but simply put it's only after the damage was done, objectives were achieved, and they get away Scott-free while maintaining the sugar-coated version of NATO and the fall-back armies.