Muslim woman prevented second terror attack on Paris by tipping off police about whereabouts of ISIS
42 replies, posted
[URL="https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/one-woman-helped-the-mastermind-of-the-paris-attacks-the-other-turned-him-in/2016/04/10/66bce472-fc47-11e5-9140-e61d062438bb_story.html"]The Washington Post[/URL] (credible; [B]original source[/B])
[URL="http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3533826/Muslim-woman-prevented-second-terror-attack-Paris-tipping-police-whereabouts-ISIS-mastermind.html#ixzz45ZQL7YLh"]Daily Mail[/URL] (alternative)
[quote]
♦ The woman gave French police the vital tip-off about Abaaoud's location
♦ She was close friends with his tearaway cousin Hasna Aitboulahcen
♦ Aitboulahcen took the woman to meet Abaaoud in a wooded suburb
♦ Shocked to see him and to hear him boasting of more attacks, the woman informed the police and risked her life to stop another massacre[/quote]
[quote]The woman who gave French police the vital tip-off about the secret hiding place of the mastermind of the Paris attacks has revealed the terrifying moment she met Abdelhamid Abaaoud.
'I'd seen him on TV,' the woman said, recalling how she had accompanied Abaaoud's cousin Hasna Aitboulahcen to the fugitive's secret hiding place in a wooded area near the suburb of Aubervillier.
Realising his intentions to carry out another massacre, she tried to get Aitboulahcen drunk to stop her helping Abaaoud before secretly informing police of his plans.
Now living under police protection and fearful for her life, the woman told The Washington Post that she was a surrogate mother to Aitboulahcen and struggled with feelings of guilt over her death.
[B]
'It's important that the world knows that I am Muslim myself. It's important to me that people know [U]what Abaaoud and the others did is not what Islam is teaching,[/U]' she said, explaining why she informed the police.[/B][/quote]
Anyone else not surprised by the snippet below where extremist-Aitboulahcen defied one of the Qur'an's most prominent and top sins, alcohol?
[quote]The woman explained that Hasna Aitboulahcen stayed with her for three years [B]but suffered with spells of drug abuse and heavy drinking[/B] when she would disappear for several weeks.[/quote]
Aitboulahcen (killed by French SWAT) was the Jihadist's associate. After Aitboulahcen began to establish communication with ISIS-links in Syria, she started to wear a niqab and talked about marrying her cousin-terrorist Abaaoud— despite videos emerging online of him boasting of war crimes and driving truck filled with dead corpses
We often hear about how the Qu'ran is inherently dangerous because it "instructs Muslims to kill us" or how Muslims in general are dangerous because of their beliefs. And yet here we have an extremeist partaking in one of the most widely-recognized codified sins in Islam— one that is worthy of becoming "no longer Muslim"— to partake in heavy indulgences in alcohol.
If Aitboulahcen was such a so-called extremist to Islam, followed the Qur'an like an instruction manual, Aitboulahcen would start with Rule #1, the most basic of them all:
1. No alcohol.
But instead it was someone already mentally-ill attempting to use the Qur'an as some sort of tool to justify her insanity, even as Aitboulahcen contradicted the teachings of Islam. Aitboulahcen's religion has no bearing in this mental illness.
Aitboulahcen was ill-enough to engage in copious drug and alcohol usage which is the hallmark of an individual with little rational grasp of reality. If heavy drugs and alcohol were endorsed in the Qur'an, we'd have people saying Aitboulahcen only "drank as much as she did" because she was a Muslim. The fact is, most of them do not really care for the Qur'an. They have political, or mentally-sick reasons for carrying out these attacks. Employing the Qur'an just makes you seem self-righteous against people question your deed
I'm glad people like her exist. Religions should be about being peaceful and a good person, in fact if we leave their small differences aside Judaism, Islam, Christianism, Buddhism and many other religions share a lot of common mindsets and guides.
It's obvious that DAESH is nothing but fearmongers and power junkies that only use Islam as an excuse. There are two Muslims in my class and every time one of those terror attacks happen they look grimm and kind of ashamed. It is really sad.
It's really brave to ruin the plans of a complete psychopath with the intention of mass murder just like that. If he had found out that she intended to inform the police, he would likely have killed her on the spot.
Good job, hopefully this gets a lot of media attention and reminds the world that those terrorists are everything but Muslims, and that Islam should not be associated with them.
What she did is incredibly brave, and I hope there will be no retaliation for it.
Good job noting how she risked her life but then including who she was friends with and basically all the info that would give her away to close contacts that wanted to find out
I hope she doesn't get caught
[editline]12th April 2016[/editline]
So dumb
[QUOTE=Kylel999;50118369]Good job noting how she risked her life but then including who she was friends with and basically all the info that would give her away to close contacts that wanted to find out
I hope she doesn't get caught
[editline]12th April 2016[/editline]
So dumb[/QUOTE]
You don't understand, this story has to be milked to death just because it shows a muslim as a normal person.
Holy shit, a muslim woman did something that's expected out of any decent human being, hold the presses.
[QUOTE=Dzonintz;50118408]You don't understand, this story has to be milked to death just because it shows a muslim as a normal person.
Holy shit, a muslim woman did something that's expected out of any decent human being, hold the presses.[/QUOTE]
ya so maybe start treating them like it
[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;50118422]ya so maybe start treating them like it[/QUOTE]
Ya because me disliking them is equal to rape of Nanjing and justifies them shitting all over host nation's culture while being a financial strain which is paid by inhabitants of the nation while also being treated as a first class citizens compared to original inhabitants. Why the fuck would they get any special treatment and amnesty from criticism? Not to mention in what way is Islam related to Paris, isn't it messed up that one of the Europe's defying cities is actually having to deal with niqabs, burqas and all of this nonsense that didn't originate in Europe in the first place?
Why should Europe even bother with these kind of problems or import them, because of political correctness?
[QUOTE=Dzonintz;50118432]Ya because me disliking them is equal to rape of Nanjing and justifies them shitting all over host nation's culture while being a financial strain which is paid by inhabitants of the nation while also being treated as a first class citizens compared to original inhabitants. Why the fuck would they get any special treatment and amnesty from criticism? Not to mention in what way is Islam related to Paris, isn't it messed up that one of the Europe's defying cities is actually having to deal with niqabs, burqas and all of this nonsense that didn't originate in Europe in the first place?
Why should Europe even bother with these kind of problems or import them, because of political correctness?[/QUOTE]
Has there ever been a time when, "Political correctness," was used as anything but an excuse for incredibly bigoted opinions?
I love when people generalize all members of a diverse group and then when something emerges to prove them wrong they go "oh well this isn't news fuck off I don't wanna read this"
[QUOTE=Dzonintz;50118432]justifies them shitting all over host nation's culture[/QUOTE]
This "argument" makes me so fucking mad it's unbelievable. The "they are ruining my country's culture" argument is such bullshit and I wish that people would stop using it. They are NOT forcing you to adhere to their culture. They are not going from door to door demanding that people stop following their traditions in favor of Muslim ones.
As a native you are most likely even more populous so it would be strange if the relatively small amount of people managed to overtake an entire culture by just "being"
[QUOTE=Dzonintz;50118432]while also being treated as a first class citizens compared to original inhabitants.[/QUOTE]
They aren't though? First class citizens, really?
[QUOTE=Dzonintz;50118432]Why the fuck would they get any special treatment and amnesty from criticism?[/QUOTE]
They aren't though? They are constantly shat on by xenophobes for just talking a different language. If they are refugees from war that might be a reason for some special treatment. I'd assume you would want some form of special treatment if you were running from a war in your home country.
[QUOTE=Chili Banan;50118539]They aren't though? First class citizens, really?[/QUOTE]
The real thing to focus on here is the insinuation that they [I]should[/I] be treated as [I]second-class[/I] citizens just for being brown and talking funny. Because, you know, "my traditions." Which only matter when it comes to beating down funny-talking brown people.
[QUOTE=Dzonintz;50118432]host nation's culture[/QUOTE]
You wanna talk about culture? Traditions? Let's see... [img]https://facepunch.com/fp/flags/rs.png[/img]
Okay! Unless you dress like this,
[img]http://i.imgur.com/cMFDbux.jpg[/img]
live in this,
[img]http://i.imgur.com/h35jarI.jpg[/img]
spend your whole day doing this,
[img]http://i.imgur.com/c39jyit.jpg[/img]
so you can eat this every night,
[img]http://i.imgur.com/K8Fn4qr.jpg[/img]
you can shut the fuck up about those dirty browns ruining your culture. Nothing about your day to day life is "traditional" and you're lying if you pretend otherwise while using the Internet - which isn't a traditional Serbian activity, but rather something you adopted as your national identity evolved. Cultures change and evolve as they interact with other cultures. Pulling the culture argument is bullshit.
[QUOTE=Grenadiac;50118552]The real thing to focus on here is the insinuation that they [I]should[/I] be treated as [I]second-class[/I] citizens just for being brown and talking funny. Because, you know, "my traditions." Which only matter when it comes to beating down funny-talking brown people.
You wanna talk about culture? Traditions? Let's see...
Okay! Unless you dress like this,
live in this,
spend your whole day doing this,
so you can eat this every night,
you can shut the fuck up about those dirty browns ruining your culture. Nothing about your day to day life is "traditional" and you're lying if you pretend otherwise while using the Internet - which isn't a traditional Serbian activity, but rather something you adopted as your national identity evolved. Cultures change and evolve as they interact with other cultures. Pulling the culture argument is bullshit.[/QUOTE]
if you think culture = old clothes, housing, physical labour and food you are literally retarded
wanna know why our culture is being ruined? its because we have a public schooling system, coupled with a mass influx of people from stone age that are put in said schools, the schools are forced to strip the education from the values which made these countries in order to not offend these people. what is the result? children without the healthy values which created our societies. what happens is that the children that gets the strongest values at home, which arent the western children, will dominate
[QUOTE=Kentz;50118673]if you think culture = old clothes, housing, physical labour and food you are literally retarded[/QUOTE]
resistance to cultural change is a backwards ideology and honestly he's basically generalizing an entire (VERY LARGE) portion of the human population of earth. I've found that most people who tend to dislike a certain group of people based on a generalization have never had any personal relations with a member of that group - eg "I keep reading news articles about the muslim invader rapist crusades and im so mad!" - a lot of this arab hate shit and cultural conservatism relies on the assumption that Eastern cultures relative to Western cultures are objectively inferior and have nothing to offer other than oppression of women and and beheadings.
[QUOTE=Kentz;50118673]if you think culture = old clothes, housing, physical labour and food you are literally retarded[/QUOTE]
I could very easily compile a list of all things cultural in Serbia but it wouldn't change the point at all - which is that cultures interact and assimilate by their very nature - and in fact have already mingled in the past.
The French historic national identity incorporates hundreds of tiny local cultures. That's the way it is. Nothing is being threatened - this is the order of things.
[editline]12th April 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=Kentz;50118673]wanna know why our culture is being ruined? its because we have a public schooling system, coupled with a mass influx of people from stone age that are put in said schools, the schools are forced to strip the education from the values which made these countries in order to not offend these people. what is the result? children without the healthy values which created our societies. what happens is that the children that gets the strongest values at home, which arent the western children, will dominate[/QUOTE]
[quote]the schools are forced to strip the education from the values which made these countries in order to not offend these people.[/quote]
This isn't the doing of "the Muslims". This is [B]your government[/B] deciding to accommodate them in this way. The problem isn't solved by lashing out at immigrants. It's solved by electing better politicians.
You aren't facing a "Muslim invasion." All the Muslims in the Middle East didn't just gather up one day and decide to fuck you over. You have dumb hyper-left politicians because you picked them and they're dialing back education and other areas to solve a problem that [B]didn't really exist[/B]. Do you know how I know this? My area has a pretty significant Muslim minority and they have integrated just fine. The problem isn't with Muslims, it's with shitty government not knowing how to help foreigners adapt.
[QUOTE=Grenadiac;50118688]
This isn't the doing of "the Muslims". This is [B]your government[/B] deciding to accommodate them in this way. The problem isn't solved by lashing out at immigrants. It's solved by electing better politicians.
[/QUOTE]
I think the issue is more complicated than that- I don't know much about that country's education system in particular, but if the education was in fact changed to accomodate muslim immigrants I can definitely understand the anger.
[QUOTE=Grenadiac;50118688]I could very easily compile a list of all things cultural in Serbia but it wouldn't change the point at all - which is that cultures interact and assimilate by their very nature - and in fact have already mingled in the past.
The French historic national identity incorporates hundreds of tiny local cultures. That's the way it is. Nothing is being threatened - this is the order of things.
[editline]12th April 2016[/editline]
This isn't the doing of "the Muslims". This is [B]your government[/B] deciding to accommodate them in this way. The problem isn't solved by lashing out at immigrants. It's solved by electing better politicians.
You aren't facing a "Muslim invasion." All the Muslims in the Middle East didn't just gather up one day and decide to fuck you over. You have dumb hyper-left politicians because you picked them and they're dialing back education and other areas to solve a problem that [B]didn't really exist[/B]. Do you know how I know this? My area has a pretty significant Muslim minority and they have integrated just fine. The problem isn't with Muslims, it's with shitty government not knowing how to help foreigners adapt.[/QUOTE]
it doesn't matter, the system is screwed up because of the presence of masses of muslims that have pressured governments and schools because they feel offended. the school is supposed to be "public" after all, so they have to strip the curriculum of what offends them.
[QUOTE=Kentz;50118772]it doesn't matter, the system is screwed up because of the presence of masses of muslims that have pressured governments and schools because they feel offended. the school is supposed to be "public" after all, so they have to strip the curriculum of what offends them.[/QUOTE]
Once again, the system is screwed up because your government doesn't know how to handle it. It's not their fault their country got steamrolled by war, they didn't collectively agree to fake the whole thing to declare war on Swedish culture. I love Sweden and I love its culture and its history but it is absolutely inconsequential to Muslims abroad who are trying not to get beheaded. They aren't here to take over your country.
[QUOTE=Kentz;50118772]it doesn't matter, the system is screwed up because of the presence of masses of muslims that have pressured governments and schools because they feel offended. the school is supposed to be "public" after all, so they have to strip the curriculum of what offends them.[/QUOTE]
Your country's system did not suddenly go from "not fucked up" to "fucked up" because of the presence of muslims. The system has always been flawed and that is the reason immigration and policy has been handled poorly rather than the other way around.
[QUOTE=Axsisel;50116981]There are two Muslims in my class and every time one of those terror attacks happen they look grimm and kind of ashamed. It is really sad.[/QUOTE]
Kind of unrelated, but what do they think about the death penalty? For or against?
[QUOTE=Bat-shit;50119366]Kind of unrelated, but what do they think about the death penalty? For or against?[/QUOTE]
Never asked them not I'm planning doing so. My country doesn't applies death penalty so it isn't a topic we usually discuss.
[QUOTE=Dzonintz;50118432]Ya because me disliking them is equal to rape of Nanjing and justifies them shitting all over host nation's culture while being a financial strain which is paid by inhabitants of the nation while also being treated as a first class citizens compared to original inhabitants. Why the fuck would they get any special treatment and amnesty from criticism? Not to mention in what way is Islam related to Paris, isn't it messed up that one of the Europe's defying cities is actually having to deal with niqabs, burqas and all of this nonsense that didn't originate in Europe in the first place?
Why should Europe even bother with these kind of problems or import them, because of political correctness?[/QUOTE]
I have been living in Île-de-France for 20 years and I have seen a grand total of five, maybe six burqas over the course of my life. Niqabs should be a non-issue as headscarves for women are a fashion that predated muslim immigraton to France.
I can understand being troubled by the increase of these dresses, but I'm pretty sure burqas have been illegal for a while now. Arabs have never been regarded as first class citizens by default. Public opinion and mainstream newspapers flirt with islamophobia with more or less subtlety; so these issues are very much being addressed.
I don't think we are importing many more. We do have like twenty five thousand refugees but these people are scheduled to leave (date pending, when we can ship them back without getting them killed)
Friendly reminder that dzonintz actually interprets Islam the same way ISIS does
[QUOTE=Dzonintz;50092901][B]THERE IS NO HARDCORE EXTREMIST INTERPRETATION[/B]
You either are a Muslim and follow 3 pillars of Islam (Quran, Sunna and Hadiths) or you aren't a muslim, which makes you kuffar, and you should really look up at what Islam's policies are towards kuffars aka non believers.[/QUOTE]
[editline]12th April 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=Kentz;50118772]it doesn't matter, the system is screwed up because of the presence of masses of muslims that have pressured governments and schools because they feel offended. the school is supposed to be "public" after all, so they have to strip the curriculum of what offends them.[/QUOTE]
what masses by the way? I find roughly 2% with a Muslim background on wikipedia and of those only half identify as religious??
how do you pressure schools in Sweden?
Why are schools giving in to that pressure?
[QUOTE=Kentz;50118673]if you think culture = old clothes, housing, physical labour and food you are literally retarded
wanna know why our culture is being ruined? its because we have a public schooling system, coupled with a mass influx of people from stone age that are put in said schools, the schools are forced to strip the education from the values which made these countries in order to not offend these people. what is the result? children without the healthy values which created our societies. what happens is that the children that gets the strongest values at home, which arent the western children, will dominate[/QUOTE]
I am studying to become a teacher in Sweden. This literally is NOT happening. There he been no change to the so called "styrdokument" (school law, education philosophy, etc.) since 2011 and then a minor revision in 2012. These control how the education is supposed to be conducted from it's very core out all the way into the classrooms. If you would have bothered checking this you would have seen that one paragraph clearly (still) say - no matter how many Muslims are living
in Sweden - that Swedish education are founded on Western beliefs, amongst other things that are Western in nature.
Also, if anything the people moving to Sweden and attending Swedish school are MASSIVELY influenced by OUR culture.
Which brings me to culture itself. Can you even define what you mean by culture?
[editline]13th April 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=Killuah;50120126]
how do you pressure schools in Sweden?
Why are schools giving in to that pressure?[/QUOTE]
They aren't. Kentz literally doesn't know what he/she is talking about. There are schools that are specifically designed to take "newly arrived" students but that is pretty much as far as it goes in terms of "stripped curriculum". After a period in these schools they are transferred to a regular school. I'd be more than happy to provide useful sources, but I'm on the phone atm.
[QUOTE=Grenadiac;50118688]
This isn't the doing of "the Muslims". This is your government deciding to accommodate them in this way. The problem isn't solved by lashing out at immigrants. It's solved by electing better politicians.
You aren't facing a "Muslim invasion." All the Muslims in the Middle East didn't just gather up one day and decide to fuck you over. [B]You have dumb hyper-left politicians[/B] because you picked them and they're dialing back education and other areas to solve a problem that didn't really exist. Do you know how I know this? My area has a pretty significant Muslim minority and they have integrated just fine. The problem isn't with Muslims, it's with shitty government not knowing how to help foreigners adapt.[/QUOTE]
Uh, what? The Christian Democratic Union, the party Angela Merkel is a part of, its a center-right party. In all likelyhood, Angela Merkel was just trying to do a good thing and just got caught up in bullshit, and not because of the boogeyman that is Political Correctness.
[QUOTE=Maegord;50118512]Has there ever been a time when, "Political correctness," was used as anything but an excuse for incredibly bigoted opinions?[/QUOTE]
It's used to describe language or ideas that deliberately avoid confrontation and accommodate groups of people or ideas uncritically for dubious reasons (think about how politicians use words and why). It's not a positive phrase, so it follows that bigotry would constitute a large portion of the response to it, because it's on the same level of asinine fortuity.
[QUOTE=TornadoAP;50122046]Uh, what? The Christian Democratic Union, the party Angela Merkel is a part of, its a center-right party. In all likelyhood, Angela Merkel was just trying to do a good thing and just got caught up in bullshit, and not because of the boogeyman that is Political Correctness.[/QUOTE]
I don't think Angela Merkel lives in Sweden
[QUOTE]Aitboulahcen (killed by French SWAT) was the Jihadist's associate. After Aitboulahcen began to establish communication with ISIS-links in Syria, she started to wear a niqab and talked about marrying her cousin-terrorist Abaaoud— despite videos emerging online of him boasting of war crimes and driving truck filled with dead corpses
We often hear about how the Qu'ran is inherently dangerous because it "instructs Muslims to kill us" or how Muslims in general are dangerous because of their beliefs. And yet here we have an extremeist partaking in one of the most widely-recognized codified sins in Islam— one that is worthy of becoming "no longer Muslim"— to partake in heavy indulgences in alcohol.
If Aitboulahcen was such a so-called extremist to Islam, followed the Qur'an like an instruction manual, Aitboulahcen would start with Rule #1, the most basic of them all:
1. No alcohol.
But instead it was someone already mentally-ill attempting to use the Qur'an as some sort of tool to justify her insanity, even as Aitboulahcen contradicted the teachings of Islam. Aitboulahcen's religion has no bearing in this mental illness.
Aitboulahcen was ill-enough to engage in copious drug and alcohol usage which is the hallmark of an individual with little rational grasp of reality. If heavy drugs and alcohol were endorsed in the Qur'an, we'd have people saying Aitboulahcen only "drank as much as she did" because she was a Muslim. The fact is, most of them do not really care for the Qur'an. They have political, or mentally-sick reasons for carrying out these attacks. Employing the Qur'an just makes you seem self-righteous against people question your deed[/QUOTE]
What you are saying isn't untrue, but misses the point. A large number of terrorists do indeed seem to have, at least for most of their lives, not been that devout. Many, like this one, drank alcohol or took drugs and engaged in petty crime. Another example would be Salah Abdeslam, who also drank and smoked marijuana.
[B]Ideology[/B]
What these people are really acting on behalf of is an ideology. To start with a few definitions: Islamism is non-violent political Islam. Prominent examples would be Hizb ut-Tahrir, Al Muhajiroun and the Muslim Brotherhood. These organisations conform to an ideology that is based off of but not the same as Islam.
Islamism is an ideology heavily influenced, in particular, by European fascism. Take, for example, this quote from Hasan al-Banna, founder of the Muslim Brotherhood:
[QUOTE]Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Hijaz, Yemen, Tripoli, Tunis, Algiers, Marrakech, and every inch of earth upon which there is a Muslim who says "there is no God but Allah", all this is our great nation that we shall liberate, save, free and whose parts we shall bring together one after the other. [B]If the German Reich imposed itself as a protector of all people who had German blood in their veins, then [the] Islamic faith compels every strong Muslim to consider himself a protector of all who have been impregnated by the teachings of Qur'an[/B] [. . .] Andalusia, Sicily, the Balkans, Southern Italy, and the islands of the Mediterranean were all Islamic colonies and must return to Islam. The Mediterranean and the Red Sea have to become again two Islamic seas as it used to be. [B]If Mr. Mussolini considered as his right to recreate the Roman Empire, whose so-called ancient empire was built on nothing but avarice and pleasure, then it is our right to restore the glory of the Islamic Empire which was founded on justice, fairness, and spread light and guidance among the people.[/B][/QUOTE]
Islamism, as seen from this quote, is a totalitarian ideology. I would go as far as calling it, and not Donald Trump or Front National, the fascism of our time. Islamism usually eschews violence (especially violence against civilians) in favour of either Democratic methods or other methods (Hizb ut-Tahrir seeks to install itself through military coups in the Islamic world through radicalising military officers).
Jihadism is violent political Islam. Jihadism often shares the same ideology as Islamism, but differs in preferred method. Islamists often dislike the anarchistic nature of terrorist movements, but the basic beliefs are the same. Jihadism will be followed by groups which you see all over the media: Islamic State or al-Qaeda, for example.
[B]Often the people who become Jihadis are different from those who become Islamists.[/B] However, this is also a red herring. Jihadism and Islamism both feed into the same ideology that fuels terrorism. This world view is both theological and political in nature. David Cameron, in a landmark speech on extremism, articulated this effectively:
[QUOTE]...And ideas also based on conspiracy: that Jews exercise malevolent power; or that Western powers, in concert with Israel, are deliberately humiliating Muslims, because they aim to destroy Islam. In this warped worldview, such conclusions are reached – that 9/11 was actually inspired by Mossad to provoke the invasion of Afghanistan; that British security services knew about 7/7, but didn’t do anything about it because they wanted to provoke an anti-Muslim backlash.
And like so many ideologies that have existed before – whether Fascist or Communist – many people, especially young people, are being drawn to it. We need to understand why it is proving so attractive.
[/QUOTE]
Just like fascism and communism before it, they believe in a world controlled by shadowy forces and a minority who can return to historical greatness. The resemblances to fascism and communism: Fascists believe in a world controlled by Jews, oppressing good [nationality] people, who can return to their historical greatness, which Islamists believe can be achieved through establishing a Caliphate. Communists believe in a global, oppressed proletariat. Islamists and Jihadists articulate this concept through using a distorted idea of the ummah. This goes alongside a fundamentalist reading of the Qu'ran, which is used to provide theological backing to their ideas. [Side note: I used to place more emphasis on the Qu'ran itself. Whilst I still think it is worse than other texts (and easier to exploit), particularly in that Mohammed himself was a far worse person than Jesus, and that it is harder to reinterpret than, for example, the Bible (due to being the literal word of God), it isn't a very important factor].
To end, I will give you a quote from the counter-extremism think-tank Quilliam:
[QUOTE][B]IS THERE ANY PROOF THAT EXTREMISM LEADS TO TERRORIST VIOLENCE? [/B]
Certain factors, whether they lead to terrorism or not, are highly problematic in themselves in terms of social and national cohesion. It is our contention that ultimately, seeking or demanding empirical proof for complex human behaviour patterns is unhelpful. [B]Just as there is no direct proof that the spread of neo-Nazi or Fascist ideas in society leads directly to violence against Jews or other minorities, we would nevertheless find it extremely problematic if such views were to spread, and would be concerned from a common sense approach about the danger of this rhetoric provoking violence. It goes without saying that all violent neo-Nazis were at some stage non-violent neo-Nazis before they commenced to attack their victims. The same is true of Islamism.[/B][/QUOTE]
[B]So why do people become terrorists?[/B]
So why do people actually become terrorists? I think David Paxton gives a good run-down of the main 'schools of thought' on this issue:
[QUOTE]Although there are many different factors in play within different people and to differing extents, the weight placed on different factors seems to have a great deal to do with an observer’s predilections and expertise. Atheist polemicists will focus on the religion, the causes are all there in the texts. Somebody protective of Islam will latch onto any reasons that point elsewhere, it could happen to any religion or even without religion. Psychologists search for recurring themes in character types or brain function or something meaningful to their craft. Those with an intrinsic dislike of any manifestation of Western power will blame grievances and the terrorist becomes the victim. Conservatives tend to go for arguments around identity, or indeed a lack of one. And I dare say somebody who holds great stock in the numbers will require ways to reduce the subject into terms that can be plotted on a graph.[/QUOTE]
I would also add that a few people (some of whom I respect and are more on my side of the political sphere than the left) basically think that terrorism are random acts of violence, with basically a nihilist motivation.
I think I will remove a few red herrings first. Lack of education, or opportunity is nothing to do with terrorism, period. There is a huge amount of data proving either that education has no effect (I mostly favour this) or that it in fact increases terrorism. See [URL="http://www.economist.com/node/17730424"]this[/URL] for some more information. Foreign policy is also more or less not a factor, both at home and abroad. Abroad it is simply incorrect. Blowback (the idea that 'if you get hit, you hit back') is non-existent, and also mostly irrelevant given the fact that Jihadis abroad are usually not locals rising up against their oppressors, as charlatans like John Pilger or Glenn Greenwald would have you know, but instead are often mostly foreign terrorists.
No blowback in Palestine:
[QUOTE]In fact, post Cast Lead yielded Israel’s “quietest year” in a decade: there was a 90% reduction in the first year and even at its highest levels, rocket fire has not matched even a third of 2007 levels. Something that is even more interesting is how much the circle of violence argument gets it the wrong way around. Hamas, after Cast Lead started patrolling the areas to make sure rockets weren’t fired. They have fired rockets since Operation Cast Lead, but the deterrence – not radicalisation - effect is clear from the graph.[/QUOTE]
[IMG]http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-NN4fAf_JJ3M/UCfn6sdfHJI/AAAAAAAAABs/jMGRHdoaAhk/s320/rockets.jpg[/IMG]
No blowback against drones in Pakistan:
[QUOTE]Of course Milne provides no empirical evidence for such a claim. Johnston and Sarbahi (2012) in their analysis of the relevant data find that “drone strikes are associated with decreases in both the frequency and the lethality of militant attacks overall and in IED and suicide attacks specifically.” Jaeger and Siddique (2011) find "strong negative impacts of unsuccessful drone strikes on Taliban violence in Pakistan, showing the deterrent effects are quite strong." [/QUOTE]
And of course, most famously (probably), a reduction in violence from the surge in Iraq:
[QUOTE]“The empirical results show that troop levels and other policy changes associated with the surge have a significant effect on reducing levels of civilian violence.” - ‘Relative peace in Iraq : a policy evaluation of the surge in troop levels’ by Smith (2009)
“Using new panel data on development spending in Iraq, we show that violence reducing effects of aid are greater when (a) projects are small, (b) troop strength is high, and (c) professional development expertise is available.” - ‘Modest, Secure and Informed: Successful Development in Conflict Zones’ by Berman et al (2013)[/QUOTE]
It does have some kind of effect, but not in the direct way that blowback would have you believe. Instead, Western intervention feeds into the ideology of al-Qaeda, as seen by these quotes from bin Laden:
[QUOTE]This last aggression was the worst catastrophe that was inflicted upon the Moslems since the death of the Prophet. That is, the occupation of the land of the two holiest sites, Islam’s own grounds, the cradle of Islam, source of the Prophet’s mission, site of the Ka’bah was launched by the Christian army of the Americans and their allies.
...
God is Most Great. Today, from the same shelters in Afghanistan, we are working to lift off the injustice that was inflicted upon the nation by the Jewish-Crusaders alliance, especially after their occupation of the Prophet’s land, praise and peace be upon him, and their desecration of land of the two holiest sites. We ask Allah to grant us victory. He is the defender and the almighty.
...
The horrifying pictures of the massacre of Qana, in Lebanon are still fresh in our memory. Massacres took place in Tajikistan, Burma, Kashmir, Assam, Philippine, Fattani, Ugadin, Somalia, Eritrea, Chechnya and in Bosnia-Herzegovina. Massacring Muslims that sent shivers in the body and shook the conscience… Muslims became aware that they were the main targets of the Jewish-Crusader alliance of aggression. The false propaganda regarding human rights have vanished under the tribulations and massacres that were committed against Muslims everywhere.[/QUOTE]
However, the contribution to the fanatical, conspiratorial ideology is not enough for us to stop doing good abroad with our interventions. I also hold the view that the 'grievances' of Islamists are endless, no matter the actions of the West. They simply fill a part of the victimhood narrative spread by Islamists, and there is little we could do. Even if less foreign policy actions did help reduce terrorism slightly (which it categorically doesn't), we shouldn't have our foreign policy controlled by terrorists and Islamists.
What I personally consider to be the most important traits in making an Islamist are a desire for a purpose, identity and duty.
David Paxton again:
[QUOTE]This makes a lot of sense to me. I do ‘buy it’. [B]When younger, I felt the need for a cause and a struggle and ‘longed for adventure’. And, if I am completely honest, I wanted it to include violence. I knew with 100% certainty I was going to join an infantry regiment in the British Army and that to me was a ‘cool existence’. At that time (as now) I was also confident that any fight I may have had to be involved in wouldn’t be a terrible moral struggle to me. Fighting for Britain tends to mean you’re fighting some pretty nasty people.[/B]
But I grew up with a fairly easily found, yet strongly held, sense of identity, it was hard not to in my family. At the time these questions of radicalisation were first being asked it felt to me that revisionist history, relativist writers, Lefty teachers, TV comedians and a great number of my contemporaries were making it difficult to feel pride in the identity I was born with. It was certainly difficult to assert that this identity and its associations with the rule of law, justice, fairness (insert boilerplate description of British values here) was superior in any way to anything else or something that could be asserted without a cultural cringe. British identity was vanilla, boring, uncool and to assert it was boorish or ‘problematic’. This was the time when the chosen method of the nation celebrating the new millennium included stuffing a Dome with banal inoffensive nothingness such as little kids running around in plain purple tops. At the same time, post Braveheart, people seemed awfully keen to be Scottish, Welsh, or Irish as distinct from vanilla, anything that had some meaning. Multiculturalism was the new norm for Britain and our core national identity was having no core national identity.
...
Having said I noticed how the weighting in analysis seems dependent on predilections and experiences, the above constitute mine. I suggest this sort of thinking somewhat chimes with what David Cameron spoke of in Birmingham and it is broadly why I was pleased he made it and why I regretted that it has taken 15 years to hear a Prime Minister express the points he did.
[B]As much as I have blamed the Left in the above, elements of the Right were not helping either. When reading Maajid Nawaz’s excellent book ‘Radical‘ I was struck by the realisation that he is my age and at the same time as I was an army cadet just waiting to be old enough to progress he was being chased by racist, neo-Nazi gangs.[/B] And so when I was at the OTC at university and getting ready to go to Sandhurst he was being put into an Egyptian prison. Subsequently he has found a cause and a struggle and it has a proud identity. Pluralism, liberalism and solidarity with those fighting for it. I share it I hope. I suggest he has managed to fill a hole that existed and perhaps, having like me passed the age where the more kinetic adventure tends to hold such allure, it manages to satisfy. And for Nawaz it is certainly a fight, he is a lightning rod for obloquy via cheap shots, hatchet jobs and smears from many sides.
[B]In short: The Left helped make a coherent national sense of identity unattractive and the Right was ensuring many were not welcome to share it.[/B][/QUOTE]
Racism plays a part, so does the current model of segregationist multiculturalism that the British government practiced from 1992-2010(?). People feel weak identities so seek for something else. This is why many of these terrorists may have not been very 'Islamic' (though not all): These people are seeking an identity which they lack, and a 'cool existence' (particularly young men). Note the propaganda spread by the Islamic State: It contains a lot of flashy violence, a utopian society, a righteous struggle, and themes of brotherhood and identity. See [URL="http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-35263644"]here[/URL] (not the article I was looking for, but has some of the key ideas).
So how do we tackle terrorism and the ideology which surrounds it?
Three ways, in my opinion: Firstly, militarily. Military defeat is important for defeat IS, in particular: A Caliphate that is supposed to be ordained by God should be undefeatable, and a loss hurts the strength of their propaganda. Until recently (when gains have been made) IS looked like a 'strong horse'.
Secondly, ideologically. Tackle the reactionary, fascistic ideology of Islamism with the ideology of Liberal Democracy.
Thirdly, theologically. When Islam is so conservative, it unintentionally feeds into the ideology of Islamism and Jihadism. The fact that so many Muslim countries punish apostates and homosexuals with death gives tremendous theological backing to the fascistic ideology that I have described.
This post turned out longer than I was expecting. First long thing I have written on the subject, though I have read a huge amount about it.
Nobody is going to read this I think. But I want it on the record that I applaud this woman for choosing love over fear. She is an example for all of us.
[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;50124473]-snip-[/QUOTE]
Great post and I largely agree.
Its important to recognise the distinction between Islamism (the political movement) and Islam (the religion) they are different and not all muslims advocate or approve of Islamism. You have acknowledged that but many won't have.
The part about identity - or lack thereof causing extremism, might hold the answer. Give people pride in themselves and their culture, make them a part of something. In america people are indoctrinated from a young age to be nationalistic - imo this works well, though I don't really like it.
Let people celebrate their culture but at the same time make sure they feel thoroughly british/european. This is pretty much integration. Take the best from both cultures and the country is largely a better place to be from the mix.
One point I don't agree with is the
[quote]Thirdly, theologically. When Islam is so conservative, it unintentionally feeds into the ideology of Islamism and Jihadism. The fact that so many Muslim countries punish apostates and homosexuals with death gives tremendous theological backing to the fascistic ideology that I have described.[/quote]
That can be solved by make sure people pick up british/european values. IMO those behaviours are more linked with the conditions in the country rather than the religion, a christian in Uganda is going to have the same backwards beliefs about women and gays as a muslim in nigeria. Thats a cultural thing and a part of the culture people should leave at the doorstep when they enter europe/US/anywhere.
edit: funny that the idea of unity (ethnic, national or religious), equality (among the group) and utopia are the same ideals spread by lots of things. Christianity, islam, bolshevism, national socialism. These are things which appeal to all people but are never truely acquired. Bolshevism/stalinism/chinese communism/political islam/political christianity/nazis all saw the rise of a ruling elite coupled with huge suffering and exploitation.
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