Scottish independence: Nicola Sturgeon to seek second referendum for 2018/19
93 replies, posted
[quote=http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-39255181]Nicola Sturgeon has confirmed she will ask for permission to hold a second referendum on Scottish independence.
Ms Sturgeon said she wanted a vote to be held between the autumn of 2018 and the spring of the following year.
The Scottish first minister said the move was needed to protect Scottish interests in the wake of the UK voting to leave the EU.
She said she would ask the Scottish Parliament next week to request a Section 30 order from Westminster.
The order would be needed to allow a fresh legally-binding referendum on independence to be held.[/quote]
Get your bagpipes ready.
As a Scotman, I'm all for this.
How important is the EU to Scotland?
[QUOTE=Terabit;51953076]How important is the EU to Scotland?[/QUOTE]
It's a pretty big deal, it was one of their motivations for staying in the UK last referendum.
What i find funny about this is that Scotland wants to gain sovereignty by leaving the UK. But then they turn around and giveaway that very same sovereignty they just gained to the EU.
To me that just does not sound like independence at all.
Besides if Scotland were to become independent don't they got some huge budget problem due to the low oil prices?
Spanish MEP also said they wouldn't veto Scotland over rejoining the EU, since there was some doubt because of the Catalonian independence movement.
[quote]But, I asked him, would Spain try and veto Scotland re-entering?
"No because if you are thinking about Catalonia the situation is very very very different to the Scottish situation."
[url]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-39236117[/url]
[/quote]
[QUOTE=TheNukeNL;51953083]What i find funny about this is that Scotland wants to gain sovereignty by leaving the UK. But then they turn around and giveaway that very same sovereignty they just gained to the EU.[/QUOTE]
because we're still deciding in the end?
scottish people just want to be a part of the EU, that's pretty much it
When Scotland leaves the UK they'll have to start the process of joining the EU from scratch and from a very weak position.
Bring it on, then I can get three passports from this god awful mess.
England
Scotland
EU
:^)
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;51953087]because we're still deciding in the end?
scottish people just want to be a part of the EU, that's pretty much it[/QUOTE]
Until the EU further centralize power to Brussel and then your back to square one.
What i am getting at is that it is ironic for the Scots to vote for independence and then lose it in a few years to the EU.
When I was on Scotland two weeks before the last referendum, I was ambivalent about whether it was a good idea, preferring instead to ask people what they thought.
Now I'm like "fuck it Scots jump off the sinking ship while you can everything is fucked anyway"
They already had their chance, and if they try leaving they'll be worse off now than they would be if they left in 2014, I hope may tells Hollyrood to fuck off
[QUOTE=download;51953088]When Scotland leaves the UK they'll have to start the process of joining the EU from scratch and from a very weak position.[/QUOTE]
Not to be that guy, but what strong position do they have in the UK? They were promised no Brexit by labor/conservative last scottish referendum, many voted no on a policy of pro-union pro-eu, then voted to stay in the EU by the most sizable majority in the EU referendum, and Scottish politicians have currently been attempting to overturn the brexit results to no avail.
By the time 2018 rolls around Brexit will be in full swing and I fail to see how people in Scotland will have a "strong position" to influence those results. At the end of the day, the larger more populous countries in the UK will always have a much larger percentage of control over the large executive/unitary decisions of the UK.
I don't think she'll get it, and I don't think she wants it. Sturgeon has been ranting for months with threats to Westminster about independence this and that:
[QUOTE]Nicola Sturgeon's view is that she has been backed into a corner.
In part she has almost backed herself into a corner by her rhetoric over the last few weeks and months.
She has left herself very little room for manoeuvre unless Theresa May is going to offer her up this deal of Scotland remaining a part of the single market.
At the same time, she has fuelled a level of expectation within her own party. Many within the SNP are pushing her to go for the second independence referendum.
You could argue that maybe she cannot hold back any longer, and therefore has decided to seize the initiative, go out on the front foot, lay down the gauntlet to Theresa May and say "OK, I'm asking for the referendum, will you give it to me?"[/QUOTE]
Agree with this.
Not sure on public opinion in Scotland with this, especially the majority that voted no.
[QUOTE=TheNukeNL;51953119]Until the EU further centralize power to Brussel and then your back to square one.
What i am getting at is that it is ironic for the Scots to vote for independence and then lose it in a few years to the EU.[/QUOTE]
considering the EU only centralises with common consent i fail to see how this is akin to losing independence
[QUOTE=Mallow234;51953147]They already had their chance, and if they try leaving they'll be worse off now than they would be if they left in 2014, I hope may tells Hollyrood to fuck off[/QUOTE]
don't care anymore, i don't want to be part of the united kingdom regardless
[QUOTE=TheNukeNL;51953083]What i find funny about this is that Scotland wants to gain sovereignty by leaving the UK. But then they turn around and giveaway that very same sovereignty they just gained to the EU.
To me that just does not sound like independence at all.
Besides if Scotland were to become independent don't they got some huge budget problem due to the low oil prices?[/QUOTE]
The sovereignty we "lose" to the EU is very different to that which we have lost as part of the UK.
[QUOTE=CMB Unit 01;51953086]Spanish MEP also said they wouldn't veto Scotland over rejoining the EU, since there was some doubt because of the Catalonian independence movement.[/QUOTE]
Huh, I guess the circumstances have changed enough now that they don't see Scottish Independence as analogous to/a precedent for Catalonian Independence. Interesting.
[QUOTE=hypno-toad;51953149]Not to be that guy, but what strong position do they have in the UK? They were promised no Brexit by labor/conservative last scottish referendum, many voted no on a policy of pro-union pro-eu, then voted to stay in the EU by the most sizable majority in the EU referendum, and Scottish politicians have currently been attempting to overturn the brexit results to no avail.
By the time 2018 rolls around Brexit will be in full swing and I fail to see how people in Scotland will have a "strong position" to influence those results. At the end of the day, the larger more populous countries in the UK will always have a much larger percentage of control over the large executive/unitary decisions of the UK.[/QUOTE]
I don't recall anyone promising no Brexit prior to the last referendum. Quite the opposite - Scotland knew full well at the time that a vote on the EU was coming. That's what fucks me off so much about Sturgeon wanting another referendum: you had one go at it already and using Brexit as a reason doesn't wash with me. The SNP could (and should) have left the referendum until after the vote on the EU if they were so concerned about it.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;51953156]considering the EU only centralises with common consent i fail to see how this is akin to losing independence
don't care anymore, i don't want to be part of the united kingdom regardless[/QUOTE]
The the government is fucking over the UK with Brexit and the awful they're treating the disabled and poor I want England to leave the UK too
[QUOTE=David29;51953172]I don't recall anyone promising no Brexit prior to the last referendum. Quite the opposite - Scotland knew full well at the time that a vote on the EU was coming. That's what fucks me off so much about Sturgeon wanting another referendum: you had one go at it already and using Brexit as a reason doesn't wash with me. The SNP could (and should) have left the referendum until after the vote on the EU if they were so concerned about it.[/QUOTE]
Considering the "No" campaign made a huge deal of voting to stay in the UK being a vote to stay in the EU, no. What should have happened was the No Campaign should've been up front about the fact an EU Referendum was going to happen in the UK so they couldn't guarantee it. But being honest about one of the few things that Scottish people cared enough about to get them to stay wouldn't have won them the referendum.
Can't say I'm looking forward to this- not so much for the political aspect, but the last referendum brought the worst out of a lot of people.
[QUOTE=ChickenMan99;51953181]Can't say I'm looking forward to this- not so much for the political aspect, but the last referendum brought the worst out of a lot of people.[/QUOTE]
Yes, Brexit truly was a shitshow.
[editline]13th March 2017[/editline]
[QUOTE=download;51953088]When Scotland leaves the UK they'll have to start the process of joining the EU from scratch and from a very weak position.[/QUOTE]
Which is still better than not being in the EU [b]at all[/b]
I really don't like Scottish nationalist rhetoric but the fact is that Scottish voters were essentially decieved into staying in regards to the EU.
I love how many Pro-EU people in Scotland will support independence despite using exactly the same arguments as those for leaving the EU.
Except that an independent Scotland will be outside the EU anyway so to use Brexit as a motivation for another referendum is risable.
[QUOTE=The mouse;51953194]I love how many Pro-EU people in Scotland will support independence despite using exactly the same arguments against leaving the EU.
Except that an independent Scotland will be outside the EU anyway so to use Brexit as a motivation for another referendum is risable anyway.[/QUOTE]
except we can join the EU if we leave the UK
that's the key important difference
i wonder how citizenship would work, would every brit become a citizen of both countries?
[QUOTE=Zelpa;51953197]i wonder how citizenship would work, would every brit become a citizen of both countries?[/QUOTE]
IIRC Scots could choose between Scottish and British on the old white paper
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;51953196]except we can join the EU if we leave the UK
that's the key important difference[/QUOTE]
Yes, it'll take 10 years in the wilderness with no guarantee of membership where at which point, you'll be forced to use the Euro and have a hard border with the UK. All whilst trying to fund a welfare state without UK subsidies or Oil money.
Good Luck.
[QUOTE=David29;51953172]I don't recall anyone promising no Brexit prior to the last referendum. Quite the opposite - Scotland knew full well at the time that a vote on the EU was coming. That's what fucks me off so much about Sturgeon wanting another referendum: you had one go at it already and using Brexit as a reason doesn't wash with me. The SNP could (and should) have left the referendum until after the vote on the EU if they were so concerned about it.[/QUOTE]
Unless you live in Scotland I don't see why you care. I also don't see the problem with another referendum. If the result is yes then opinion changed, what's the problem? Aren't you guys champions of democracy? It's like all the brexiters staunchly refusing a second referendum with two proper sides and truthful campaigns. Too much of your ego is invested in that B word methinks.
[QUOTE=Mr Kotov;51953188]decieved into staying in regards to the EU.[/QUOTE]
The call for a EU referendum was one of orders the tories promised back in 2010; in fact I think it was part of their manifesto. Later David Cameron and what seemed like the majority of West Minister were all for staying in the European Union. UK public (specifically the Welsh and English) voted to leave.
I don't know how that's deceitful, it had been long coming. Parliament just thought Brexit would never happen, and assumed people would vote stay.
[QUOTE=The mouse;51953205]Yes, it'll take 10 years in the wilderness with no guarantee of membership where at which point, you'll be forced to use the Euro and have a hard border with the UK. All whilst trying to fund a welfare state without UK subsidies or Oil money.
Good Luck.[/QUOTE]
I'll take that over being stuck in a post-Brexit conservative wasteland, thanks.
If you were trying to present Scotland post-referendum as unappealing, it would help if you were doing it from a position of strength - i.e. not from a UK that has committed to suicide. At least post-ref Scotland would be on our terms, not on those of English voters with a boner for the glory days of the Empire.
[editline]13th March 2017[/editline]
[QUOTE=Vasili;51953216]The call for a EU referendum was one of orders the tories promised back in 2010; in fact I think it was part of their manifesto. Later David Cameron and what seemed like the majority of West Minister were all for staying in the European Union. UK public (specifically the Welsh and English) voted to leave.
I don't know how that's deceitful, it had been long coming. Parliament just thought Brexit would never happen, and assumed people would vote stay.[/QUOTE]
The point is that the No campaign was deceitful in presenting a No vote as a definite vote for remaining in the EU.
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