Transgenderism, should it be accepted or not? - General

[QUOTE=Swebonny;42248212]Okay I'm locking this thread. Someone bring it over to [url]http://facepunch.com/forumdisplay.php?f=403[/url] . Remember to read the rules and such before making the thread or making posts.[/QUOTE] Since nobody else has done so, I think I'll give this a try. [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender]The definition of transgender[/url]: Transgender is the state of one's gender identity (self-identification as woman, man, neither or both) not matching one's assigned sex (identification by others as male, female or intersex based on physical/genetic sex). Transgender does not imply any specific form of sexual orientation; transgender people may identify as heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, pansexual, polysexual, or asexual; some may consider conventional sexual orientation labels inadequate or inapplicable to them. A key thing to keep in mind when trying to understand transgenderism is that there is a subtle but extremely large difference between biological sex and gender. Biological sex is your physical sexual characteristics (penis/vagina, testicles/uterus, breasts, chromosomes, etc.) while gender is your mental identity, what you naturally consider yourself. For your typical cisgendered person (cisgender meaning a biologically male person who also identifies as male for example) those two traits are functionally identical. But for a transgender person those traits don't line up, as an example I am biologically male myself but I identify as female. There was no choice there or anything for me, I simply identify that way without having to even think about it, just as most of you will identify as male without having to put any conscious thought into it. [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer]David Reimer[/url] was a man who was raised as a female after a botched circumcision destroyed his penis. The doctor who suggested that Reimer be raised as a girl was actually hoping to prove that gender identity was something a child learned but actually ended up proving it is far more complex than that. Reimer, despite being raised as a girl, grew up identifying as male. Here's some quotes from that locked thread that I think are fairly descriptive and objectively worded that help explain transgenderism: [QUOTE=.Isak.;42247641]There is a genuine, scientific diagnosis of "gender dysphoria disorder," which causes you to identify yourself as the opposite gender. Personally, I'm not for treating all mental differences as "disorders" and forcing those with them to be medicated and "fixed." You have your right to think that transgenders are disgusting, but you are simply demonstrating your ignorance of the topic. If you want to be taken seriously in a discussion, even on a forum, don't just spout your opinion - try to know what you're talking about, or at least be open to proper discussion and debate and let others opinions and examples challenge your own beliefs. Being hardheaded about something as important as human rights is a very ignorant and damaging position to take. Transgender rights aren't really that difficult of a topic, since they essentially only deal with our societal concept of gender. Gender's so deeply rooted into our conscience that challenging it makes us uncomfortable. Sexuality is less deeply-rooted, and that's why its starting to be publicly accepted. Something like skin color/race had this same issue, and it's slowly being ripped out of our society. Something that anyone talking about transgender rights should know is the technical difference between gender and sex. Sex is entirely biological. Sometimes, albeit rarely, sex is ambiguous and it's difficult to determine if the person is male or female due to hormone imbalances and the existence of both male and female reproductive systems. We usually just chop out half of it and say they're something else, which can be hugely psychologically damaging later in life. Gender isn't biological. It's psychological/mental identification. Sure, you can hop up and say "i'm a girl now!" but you will lack the hormonal differences and psychological background and development to be able to uphold that split-second decision. That's an argument you see all the time from people who don't understand the difference. Gender, like sexuality, is an increasingly blurry line. A couple decades ago, nobody would admit to having a sexuality that differed from the norm. Nowadays, due to human rights movements, tons of people do. Gender will reach that level of acceptance within the next couple decades, too. Gender is psychological and has absolutely nothing to do with the biological appearance of your dick/cunt. Somebody's perception of gender relies on their brain structure, their upbringing, their hormone balance, and dozens of other variables. Gender is such a huge part of our society that it's pretty uncomfortable (even for me) to challenge the concept. But hell, people said the same about sexuality, race, sex, and everything else. Women have to act like this and do that and they're biologically inferior because that is how our society works. Well, no, that's not true, womens' rights movement, it's being repaired. Black people are inferior because our society says that ancestry defines superiority. No, not really, civil rights movement, society's views changing. Homosexuality and bisexuality are not okay, according to society. Nope, that's currently changing with LGB rights. Transexuality will take a while longer, because it calls the very concept of gender into question, instead of looser concepts. [/quote] [QUOTE=.Isak.;42247744]If you're born with a male reproductive system and primarily testosterone without any major physical reproductive disorders, you are male. If you're born with a female reproductive system and primarily estrogen without any major physical reproductive disorders, you are female. If you're born with a physical reproductive disorder that causes hormonal imbalance and ambiguity of male/female reproductive systems, what are you? Nowadays, chop chop, you're a girl, have fun, sorry for the trauma. Now, if you're born a male but you have psychological and hormonal differences that cause you to identify as a woman, you are a male and a woman. Male being the biological sex, woman being the psychological gender. Likewise, if you're born a female and have psychological and hormonal differences that cause you to identify as a man, you are a female and a man. Female being sex, man being gender. It's not that difficult of a concept, it's just uncomfortable because we're so used to putting male and man and female and woman together. Separating gender and sex is a startling concept because our society has made the two totally inseparable, even though they are. Your options in those above cases are either to put them on hormone therapy and treatment procedures, which will likely be ineffective since we don't know enough about the brain in order to just press a button and change their gender identification. Do this, and you'll have a giant population of people pressured into being who they aren't and forced to despise themselves, which leads to an increase in depression and suicide. You'll literally be killing people off because you cannot accept their psychological differences. Or, you know, influence society to accept these people. Whoa, now you have transgendered people and it's no big deal, nobody's dying, and nobody gives a fuck because they aren't made uncomfortable by the separation of the concepts of sex and gender. Everybody wins except the bigots.[/quote] Gender identity is a fairly hot topic lately and a lot of the transgender news articles simply end up shit flinging contests. Hopefully this can keep a civil discussion from everyone. A few arguments against transgender people I would like to try and explain right off the bat: [quote]Referring to a transgender person by their gender and not their sex. This seems to be a fairly big one for some people. You refer to someone as their identity and not their sex, as an example you would probably get extremely frustrated if everyone consistently insisted on referring to you as the opposite gender. It's a simple matter of basic respect and common decency to refer to someone as what they identify as. Insisting that because a transperson has penis they must use the men's room or vice versa. A key factor here is that their genitalia should not be relevant at all. Bathroom stalls are private and no one should be looking in them and the transgender person shouldn't be advertising said genitalia anyways. Especially after they have transitioned it can actually be quite dangerous to force them to use the restroom of their biological sex. Transgender folks face very high rates of violent crimes such as assault, murder, or "corrective" rape. If you force someone who acts and looks like a woman to use the men's restroom you are basically outing them as transgender when that's a fact many transgender people like to only inform people of on a case by case basis when it's actually relevant because they fear for their safety.[/quote] Transgender people face higher rates of suicide than basically any other group of people. This happens for many varied reasons. Coming from personal experience I'll try to explain some of this here as best I can. I personally knew what I identified as around the ages of 4-5 (I honestly can't remember exactly when, it was 20-21 years ago now and it was something I had stupidly tried to deny to myself) but for the longest time I tried to act as what I was expected to be. I had a severely homophobic father who would rebuke or even beat me for simply playing dolls with my sister, that was the start of me starting to despise myself for something I had no control over. Growing up, the only portrayals in the media of transgender people you tend to see always tries to paint them in the same light as pedophiles. Obviously no one would want that, and in a transgender person's case they are often already hating themselves for simply not being normal, and it causes them to only despise themselves more. Even when it comes to family you know to generally accept people for who they are, you can easily see when they look down upon transgender people and that only makes the self hatred worse. Back in 2004 or so there was an in-transition transgender woman who lived in my neighborhood. Because she was attracted to women herself my family wrote it off as someone being perverted. That was wrong of them though, almost anyone who is transgender will tell you they wouldn't even wish being transgender on people they despise. No one in a reasonable state of mind (and probably not even in an unreasonable state of mind) is going to try and change their sex simply because they are perverted. And even if they did they would not succeed because the path to transitioning is specifically setup to filter out people who would regret transitioning to the point that often enough it's difficult for people who legitimately do want to transition to even do so. Anyways my point is, all these things that may seem minor to most of you have a larger effect than you may think on someone who is transgender. Me personally, I tried to deny it for a very long time and tried to live up to what was expected of me. All it resulted in though was me wasting opportunities, being depressed and at times suicidal, and overall hating myself very very deeply. Eventually for myself it all came to a close in 2009 when I ended up having what could only be described as a complete mental breakdown from the stress of having to hide who I was combined with external factors that were only adding to that stress very greatly. (Job I hated, my first pet dying, my girlfriend breaking up with me, and my sister whom I am very close to moving out of state. All that on top of a great deal of stress having to act differently than I am.) Hopefully I've been clear here and left this discussion with a good starting point. Question being, as said in the title: Should we accept transgender people as we do those of different sexual preferences, religious backgrounds, and racial profiles or should we curb the practice and try to cure these people if it is even possible? [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xXAoG8vAyzI[/media] A quick and really easy to understand explanation of the difference between gender and sex.

hell fucking yes we should. I'm genderqueer/genderfluid and my boyfriend is ftm. we are most certainly people like the rest of society, and it literally makes no difference to how anyone else lives their life.

To say Transgenderism should be 'accepted' or 'not accepted' would break cultural relativism either way. The way I was brought up and the concepts associated with masculinity and femininity have produced a sense of traditional gender relations. Due likely to this, I become physically sick when the concept of transgenderism enters my mind. This isn't to say it affects me to the point where I would impose my gender associations upon others, for free will is also a big thing for me. When asked if something should be accepted or not accepted, the better question is "Should we promote, or restrict that activity?" Everything short of that is a question of cultural relativism.

[QUOTE=Zenreon117;42249619] When asked if something should be accepted or not accepted, the better question is "Should we promote, or restrict that activity?"[/QUOTE] That seems a better way to word it. I decided to name and post the thread after rambling a bit and then completely losing my train of thought so I just gave it the best name I could think of at the time.

No, the reason because I am a euphoric fundamental atheist who is sometimes catholic. Honestly, why is this a thread? A question such as asking if somebody should be accepted is just asinine. It's like asking if black people should be accepted, or arab people if they should be accepted. Or if you want to change it up, Jews, or Gays. Or if you really wanna be stupid, Russians.

[QUOTE=Binladen34;42249708]No, the reason because I am a euphoric fundamental atheist who is sometimes catholic. Honestly, why is this a thread? A question such as asking if somebody should be accepted is just asinine. It's like asking if black people should be accepted, or arab people if they should be accepted. Or if you want to change it up, Jews, or Gays. Or if you really wanna be stupid, Russians.[/QUOTE] I'm glad I refreshed the page, because I almost posted something just like this. Accepting these people hurts nobody, and not accepting them hurts them more than most of us with our comfortable lives could understand.

[QUOTE=Binladen34;42249708]Honestly, why is this a thread? A question such as asking if somebody should be accepted is just asinine. It's like asking if black people should be accepted, or arab people if they should be accepted. Or if you want to change it up, Jews, or Gays.[/QUOTE] Ideally you're right but realistically there's still a ton of people who are simply ignorant of transgenderism. And a large chunk of those tend to be people who have a hard time accepting anything outside what they already know as well. So a thread here on it may actually have a chance on getting through to some as long as people can avoid causing a shit storm like very often happens in transgender news articles on FP.

It's kind of repulsive that you even asked this question, OP.

[QUOTE=cheesylard;42250196]It's kind of repulsive that you even asked this question, OP.[/QUOTE] Did you notice that the OP themselves stated they were a transgender person.

[QUOTE=cheesylard;42250196]It's kind of repulsive that you even asked this question, OP.[/QUOTE] If you read the OP you would know I am transgender and am obviously for transgender rights. I was just following what Swebonny said since transgender news articles always get locked even when they're going well for the possibility of actually getting through to someone such as .Isak. did with aaronson2012 in the thread those quotes in the OP come from.

I don't understand transgenderism nor gender confusion, but everyone deserves the same rights as everyone else. Promoting the activity though seems silly. That's like promoting interraciality, different religions, or different sexualities. There's no need to restrict them, but no need to 'promote'/encourage them, just like there's no reason to 'promote' heterosexuality, etc. Let people be/believe what they want. If people are transgender, let them be transgender.

Of course! I mean the idea may seem weird to anyone that isn't but that is no reason not to accept them, they've done nothing wrong.

The fact that this is even an argument in 2013, where a ton of people are in favor of gay and lesbian rights, is kind of depressing. Everyone, regardless of gender identity, ethnicity, or whatever, should be allowed to do whatever the hell they want as long as it doesn't directly harm anybody else. Gay people should be allowed to get married, transgender dudes and dudettes should be allowed to piss in the bathroom they feel comfortable in, all that. I think the bathroom argument is the most touchy one, for some reason. I've seen people all over FP say stuff like "an mtf trans lady should just go in the men's bathroom because biotruths." I really don't get how people can get uncomfortable when the person next to them in a [I]bathroom[/I] looks or pisses or walks differently from you. Sorry for going off track there, but in short, absolutely. Trans people have the right to sit into whatever gender-chair they want, and nobody should be able to tell them otherwise.

It's those few 1 in 5 or so people that are still causing a fuss sadly. It varies across most countries a lot, for example in my country cities like Sydney and Melbourne and most urban centres are very accepting but in for example the state of Queensland the stats are against them, or at least further against them than the other states.

[QUOTE=IncogMouse;42250852]Of course! I mean the idea may seem weird to anyone that isn't but that is no reason not to accept them, they've done nothing wrong.[/QUOTE] It shouldn't be weird really. I didn't know it existed until like last year, and knowing earlier would have solved a huge amount of issues and maybe even helped me find myself. You never hear about it until you happen across it which is awful. Gender is a pretty touchy subject and often changes which can be confusing and saddening for a fair few people who have absolutely no idea why they feel how they do.

Well generally the smaller the minority the weirder it is to the majority, Trans being a very small minority. This is probably because less people know a Transexual compared to gay so less people can relate or talk to them or whatever. However we still need to learn to accept them, I like to think that most of us already have.

[QUOTE=IncogMouse;42251871]Well generally the smaller the minority the weirder it is to the majority, Trans being a very small minority. This is probably because less people know a Transexual compared to gay so less people can relate or talk to them or whatever. However we still need to learn to accept them, I like to think that most of us already have.[/QUOTE] With transgenderism in particular it's a bit more complex and more difficult to understand for most people as well. With something like understanding being gay or a different religion or race it's easier for people to sympathize and understand them because on a basic level it's fairly simple. With transgenderism you have to start out explaining a distinction that your average person struggles to understand because to them sex and gender are functionally identical terms and it's hard to separate the two after you've known them as the same thing for so long.

What people should realize is just because you do not agree with it, doesn't mean it's suddenly going to disappear. Because of this, I believe we should be a society that is accepting and encouraging.

Yes I think it should be accepted, but imo there should be something taught about things like this in schools so people can understand it properly. I didn't know anything about transgenderism till a few months ago when I read something about it on FP. [QUOTE=Tomo Takino;42251825]It shouldn't be weird really. I didn't know it existed until like last year, and knowing earlier would have solved a huge amount of issues and maybe even helped me find myself.[/QUOTE] I often find new things to be weird at first, you just have to get use to the idea.

It definitely should be as it doesn't harm anyone (in fact, it actually does the opposite by saving lives!) and having it accepted would be a great step towards a healthy society, I don't agree with the radical movements that want to abolish anything that can be used to identify a person and want everyone to start referring to eachother with a ton of complicated and confusing pronouns though, but then again those kind of groups are a vocal minority that barely get anything done. [QUOTE=milkandcooki;42250864] Everyone, regardless of gender identity, ethnicity, or whatever, should be allowed to do whatever the hell they want as long as it doesn't directly harm anybody else. Gay people should be allowed to get married, transgender dudes and dudettes should be allowed to piss in the bathroom they feel comfortable in, all that. I think the bathroom argument is the most touchy one, for some reason. I've seen people all over FP say stuff like "an mtf trans lady should just go in the men's bathroom because biotruths." I really don't get how people can get uncomfortable when the person next to them in a [I]bathroom[/I] looks or pisses or walks differently from you. [/QUOTE] Pretty much this, nobody should be glorified or vilified for who they are.

[QUOTE=isnipeu;42252025]Yes I think it should be accepted, but imo there should be something taught about things like this in schools so people can understand it properly. I didn't know anything about transgenderism till a few months ago when I read something about it on FP.[/QUOTE] This. There should definitely be as much coverage of trans issues in the media as there are of gay issues and such.

[QUOTE=isnipeu;42252025]Yes I think it should be accepted, but imo there should be something taught about things like this in schools so people can understand it properly. I didn't know anything about transgenderism till a few months ago when I read something about it on FP.[/QUOTE] Other than having heard the terms tranny and transvestite on tv and from a few different people I never knew anything about transgenderism other than negative portrayals seen on tv and second hand knowledge of people misconstruing some transpeople as perverts and I am transgender myself. So teaching about it wouldn't just help people who aren't transgender to understand it but it would help transgender people who don't know much about it past their personal experience as well. Which could very well help a ton with those people not having to grow up despising themselves and thinking they are freaks or that it's wrong to feel the way they do.

Thanks for making a really nice thread. Really sets an example how most threads in here should be made.

I'm of the opinion that people can do what they like provided it doesn't harm others directly (or indirectly in the case of wasting resources.) The issue with my stance is in places like the UK giving someone an operation or hormone therapy would take times and resources away from others who might be in life threatening need but then making people pay for it would make it a privilege of the rich.

The fact of the matter is that everything should be "accepted" without question as long as it does not affect anyone other than the person making the decision. Obviously this is just such a case. Nobody is going to be harmed or disadvantaged if another person decides to change or abolish their gender. Therefore, no restrictions should be placed on it (in a legal sense).

Yeah, it should be accepted - like people have said it harms no one, so why restrict it? It doesn't make any sense. I'm not sure whether this is totally relevant to the OP or not, but one of the main sticking points seems to be acknowledging people's gender identity and referring to them with the correct pronouns and such. I've seen even people who consider themselves accepting and liberal-minded refusing to do that, as they seem to think doing so would be "denying reality", and illogical. IMO they are [I]not [/I]basing that on reality or logic, but their own preconceived notions, so quite apart from how rude and unpleasant it is to refuse to gender people correctly, it's also not a tenable position to hold. I wrote this post a while ago explaining why the only sensible thing to do is to refer to people as they identify: [QUOTE=Tweevle;41120377][B]Assuming you know how they identify, I think it's much better to refer to people as the gender they identify as, because: A.[/B] (Simple bit and kind of the most important) If you aren't it's very rude and hurtful for the person in question. There's no benefit to misgendering someone like that (unless you think doing it enough times will get them to "snap out of it", which isn't going to happen, i.e. you're wrong), so you're effectively causing people unnecessary suffering for no reason other than to give yourself some personal satisfaction over being "correct". This is a pretty dickish thing to do, even if it's not done with the intention of hurting people, because you know what effect it'll have and you're doing it anyway. [B]B.[/B] It's not even "correct", in an objective sense. You may say, science says women have vaginas/XY chromosomes, therefore, it is correct! Well, it's not as simple as that. Let's leave aside for the moment the fact that there are people born with vaginas who have XY chromosomes, so those groups aren't even the same, even though they overlap. Science doesn't say anything about the meaning of words. Science says the world is a certain way (e.g. things fall down, the Earth rotates around the Sun), but words and their definitions are purely things people assign to things for the purpose of conveying ideas. The definition of words are, at the end of the day, completely arbitrary, and they can change. There's nothing intrinsic to the collection of syllables that make up the word "woman" that mean "a human with a vagina" or "a human with an XY chromosome" or even "a human whose gender identity is female". People give the word woman a definition because it's useful to have a way to convey a concept, whatever that concept may be. If a word isn't very good at conveying that concept, then it ceases to be a useful word. Bringing back the fact that there are people born with vaginas who have XY chromosomes. This falls under Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome, and someone posted a picture of people with this condition earlier in the thread. Now, if you're someone who defines woman as meaning "someone with an XY chromosome", would you seriously go up to [URL="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c0/Orchids01.JPG/800px-Orchids01.JPG"]these ladies[/URL], call them men, and refer to them with male pronouns? If you do, you aren't using the term "men" in the way people think of when they hear the term. When people say someone is a man, the thing you typically think about isn't their genetic makeup, it's who they are as a person. So, by using the term "men" to refer to them and not "women", the term becomes fairly useless, because it's not conveying the concept that you intend it to convey. And that gets to the crux of it. If you're going to stubbornly stick to a rigid definition of a "woman" and "man" based on the physical attributes of people (and worse, their associated pronouns), I'd argue that you're not utilizing the language in a particularly useful way, because they [I]aren't[/I] typically used to [I]just[/I] refer to physical attributes, they have a [I]ton[/I] of other concepts and baggage associated with them. For that people use the phrase "biologically male", or if you want to be specific and carry even less unrelated baggage "someone with an XY-chromosome". When you say "a woman", you're conveying all the associated meaning that that word has, which has a lot more to do with someone's identity and their behaviour, [I]who they are as a person[/I], rather than how part of their lower body is formed and how the DNA molecules in their cells are configured. And when you're using the word in a way that ignores that, it's conveying a whole load of concepts that are not only incorrect, but [I]completely counter[/I] to who this person actually is. So effectively the word as you're using it is basically useless, as its whole function is to accurately reflect the concepts it's describing. Ergo, while you aren't [I]incorrect[/I] in using the words like that, as the words themselves have no objective correct meaning, you're not correct either for the same reason, and moreover you're not using language in a useful way when using it, which just leads to confusion and general unpleasantness. But how should you define "man" and "woman", then, if not based on physical attributes? Well, this goes back to the start - just call people as how they identify. Like I said, in everyday use those terms are generally understood to convey the person - their personality, identity, behaviour - all that stuff, other things are relatively secondary. So if someone identifies as a woman, calling them such is perfectly correct from that standpoint, and with the benefit of not causing unnecessary suffering (see A), and the overall point of B, which is that it's a more useful term in more settings, and it can take into account outliers, be they the people in the picture above with AIS, or transwomen, or anyone who doesn't fit every single criteria that you can possibly throw at the word "woman" (and let's face it, many people who we'd ordinarily call women don't, when you think about it). If you need to talk about physical and biological attributes specifically, there's plenty of terms to use for that, but with everyday use referring to people as they identify is definitely the most sensible solution. [B]So, tl;dr gender people how they wish to be because otherwise you're being a dick and you're not using the words in a way that conveys their meaning properly.[/B][/QUOTE]

I have no problem with it in adults, but I do have a problem with kids being diagnosed with GID. The criteria is really arbitrary and at what point do you consider that your child actually has a GID rather than just a phase?

Turning your dick inside out or mutilating your vagina does not make you a woman/a man. Unless you grow the right sexual organs you will never be a woman/man and should not be considered so. There's no reason to consider trannies as women other than to make them feel good which is fucking stupid, society does not need to babysit them. They need to accept that you can't pick your sex like you pick clothes, they should not be allowed to use the girl's bathroom because they think they're a girl. It just like people who think they're cats or dragons, the difference would be no one mutilates their bodies to look like cats or dragons(afaik, and I hope I'm right). We need to cut out the bullshit and stop with all this tranny rights crap. [highlight](User was permabanned for this post ("Not debating, transphobia, terrible ban history" - Megafan))[/highlight]

[QUOTE=victormeriqui_1;42254678]Turning your dick inside out or mutilating your vagina does not make you a woman/a man. Unless you grow the right sexual organs you will never be a woman/man and should not be considered so. There's no reason to consider trannies as women other than to make them feel good which is fucking stupid, society does not need to babysit them. They need to accept that you can't pick your sex like you pick clothes, they should not be allowed to use the girl's bathroom because they think they're a girl. It just like people who think they're cats or dragons, the difference would be no one mutilates their bodies to look like cats or dragons(afaik, and I hope I'm right). We need to cut out the bullshit and stop with all this tranny rights crap.[/QUOTE] How are they hurting you? Refraining from abuse is a far cry from babysitting, and banning something because you don't understand it is a level of bigotry on par with abuse of gay people.

[QUOTE=_Kent_;42254907]How are they hurting you? Refraining from abuse is a far cry from babysitting, and banning something because you don't understand it is a level of bigotry on par with abuse of gay people.[/QUOTE] Gay people simply like people from the same sex, they are not pretending to be something they aren't. The only reason for such bullshit babysitting is to make trannies feel better, and yes that is babysitting. By that logic we should treat poor people like kings, that way they'll feel better. The babysitting interferes with me because I do not like trannies because they are disgusting, it makes me upset to basically see them get undeserved rights and treatments from society. They are disgusting not only in appearance, they are very arrogant, to pretend to be women or men, unaware of the implications, they think that because they said so and cut their dick they are a woman, and some of them(the most passable ones) have sex with people without even telling them they are actually a man(or a woman), because they think they aren't. I honestly think either they have some sort of mental disorder(because some truly believe they are of the opposite sex) or are just gay people not man enough to admit it so they make bullshit up. I have no problems with gay people, I find gays gross but I can deal with it since they aren't really causing any harm(the normal ones that is) but trannies are just down right disgusting, both in appearance and mentality.