• Dutch alcoholic, 41, chooses lethal injection to end 'unbearable' life
    56 replies, posted
[quote]THE HAGUE (AFP) - A Dutch long-term alcoholic chose to end his life by lethal injection saying he could no longer go on, his brother has revealed in a moving tribute. Mark Langedijk was 41 and the father of two small sons when he decided the only solution to end his pain and suffering was euthanasia, which was carried out earlier this year in The Netherlands at his parents' home. "My little brother is dead," wrote Marcel Langedijk, a freelance journalist, in an article for the Dutch magazine Linda published last week. "It was in his head. It was his problem. What the problem was no one could really ever find out," he added, revealing that his brother had undergone 21 rehab sessions over the last eight years and had had the support of his loving family. "By the time Mark realised that he needed help, that he needed to talk to someone, it was already too late. By that time alcohol had him in his grip and was not about to let him go." Langedijk set July 14 as the date for his death - "a nice day to die" - and spent his last hours with his family in his parents' garden, eating cheese and ham sandwiches, and meatball soup, smoking and drinking. An approved doctor then came and, after Mark had drained the last of his white wine, administered the three injections to put him to sleep and stop his heart. Contacted by AFP, Langedijk's publicist said the "international reaction" to his article had been "overwhelming and quite unexpected". He "feels he has said everything he wants to say for now" as he writes a book about his family's experience due out next year. The Netherlands and neighbouring Belgium became the first countries in the world to legalise euthanasia in 2002. But it is carried out under strict conditions, and only after a minimum of two doctors have certified that there is no other reasonable solution for the patient. Last year there were 5,516 cases of euthanasia in the country - or 3.9 per cent of all registered deaths. More than 70 per cent of those who opted to end their lives in this way suffered from cancer. But there were also 2.9 per cent who suffered from dementia or psychiatric illnesses, including some who were described as battling long-term alcohol abuse. For Mark Langedijk things appeared to have come to head in June. He got into a drunken fight with his flatmate, and when the police called his parents to fetch him, they were babysitting Marcel Langedijk's new 26-day-old daughter. "He was ashamed, he was in pain, he was mentally and physically exhausted. This was not how he had intended to meet" his baby niece, wrote Marcel Langedijk. The family had battled for years to help Mark. His parents "did everything humanly possible to save Mark" including caring for his children, giving him money and supporting him through rehab care. But it was Mark who announced he had "found a solution. He wanted to die. That was his solution." "After everything he had said in the past year, we took it with a pinch of salt. A large pinch," writes Marcel Langedijk, adding even his doctor had been sceptical. "Euthanasia was for people with cancer, for people with unbearable lives, for whom death was already imminent. Not for alcoholics." But Mark proved determined, and a diary he kept over the past year showed to what point his life had become unbearable, "a hopeless cocktail of pain, drink, loneliness and sorrow drips from the page." He continued to go back to his doctor, to tell her: "I want to die, enough is enough."[/quote] [url]http://www.straitstimes.com/world/europe/dutch-alcoholic-41-chooses-lethal-injection-to-end-unbearable-life?xtor=CS1-10[/url]
How does someone become [I]that[/I] bad of an alcoholic?
Well better a legal injection than traumatizing someone by jumping in front of a train or truck.
[QUOTE=Sir Whoopsalot;51468005]How does someone become [I]that[/I] bad of an alcoholic?[/QUOTE] [quote]"It was in his head. It was his problem. What the problem was no one could really ever find out," he added, [b]revealing that his brother had undergone 21 rehab sessions over the last eight years[/b] and had had the support of his loving family. [/quote]
[QUOTE=Sir Whoopsalot;51468005]How does someone become [I]that[/I] bad of an alcoholic?[/QUOTE] There is no one answer. None of us can truly step inside another person's mind. That is why it's important for us to talk to people who feel this way directly and try to learn as much as we can.
[QUOTE=Sir Whoopsalot;51468005]How does someone become [I]that[/I] bad of an alcoholic?[/QUOTE] well, considering how good alcoholism is at ruining your life and your health, especially when you think you can't get out of it (and mind you, this is always far more than the >21 units per week that gets considered as the standard definition for alcoholism in men) so I'm not surprised this man decided that instead of remaining a slave to the bottle, he might as well go out on his own terms since rehab utterly failed to make an impact in his case, considering he'd tried for years to get out of his habit. I think it's a pretty extreme step to take, but no less understandable when you consider the mental agony he recorded himself as undergoing.
[QUOTE=Sir Whoopsalot;51468005]How does someone become [I]that[/I] bad of an alcoholic?[/QUOTE] [I]Why do people take drugs and become addicted...[/I] It's a shame what has happened and what he decided to do, considering he has 2 children and they will not grow up without a father. That might have been the case anyway since he was an alcoholic but I don't think I could do it with children personally gotta wonder what was going on with him
[QUOTE=Sir Whoopsalot;51468005]How does someone become [I]that[/I] bad of an alcoholic?[/QUOTE] Addictions are extremely hard to fight, if you've never dealt with one. When you have an addiction you cant get away from, it constantly feels like a heavy deep weight on your chest. It's less prominent for people who don't care about their addiction and/or aren't aware of it. This man seemed like he'd been struggling to battle something he deeply hated about himself for many years, before finally succumbing to the war of attrition. It's almost akin to a mental disease.
[QUOTE=Sir Whoopsalot;51468005]How does someone become [I]that[/I] bad of an alcoholic?[/QUOTE] Alcoholism is way more serious than is portrayed in the media, imo. Before I started working in healthcare, I had this idea that alcoholism was just people who just drank too much and couldn't function as a result. In reality it straight up destroys you, and watching the deterioration (and detox effects) on alcoholic frequent fliers blew my mind. One of my first patients 2-3 years ago was an alcoholic from the rez who basically came alive like a reanimated zombie when detox hit, and started chasing staff around the halls swinging at them. Just a few months ago I had him again (for probably the 8th time) and had to listen to the doctor tell him he was going to die within 2-3 months because his liver was just done.
[QUOTE=Sir Whoopsalot;51468005]How does someone become [I]that[/I] bad of an alcoholic?[/QUOTE] Drugs make everything better, drugs make everything worse. It's just a simple fact of life.
[QUOTE=Sir Whoopsalot;51468005]How does someone become [I]that[/I] bad of an alcoholic?[/QUOTE] Some are just more prone to addiction because of their genetics. Could be he had a really bad case of that.
I disagree heavily. Opening the door for assisted suicide for mental issues that can be cured is incredibly dangerous. It opens a whole can of ethical and awful issues. I'm for assisted suicide if the patient has an incurable, highly painful illness that will kill them, but while I heavily sympathise with the issues that man was going through, I'm not sure letting him die was the right thing.
[QUOTE=BlackMageMari;51469377]I disagree heavily. Opening the door for assisted suicide for mental issues that can be cured is incredibly dangerous. It opens a whole can of ethical and awful issues. I'm for assisted suicide if the patient has an incurable, highly painful illness that will kill them, but while I heavily sympathise with the issues that man was going through, I'm not sure letting him die was the right thing.[/QUOTE] he'd have done it another way though, once your mind's set on something like that there's no changing it; better it's done relatively quick and painlessly than some of the other more gruesome methods of offing yourself; you're right though this is a bit of an ethical grey area and it's good to be skeptical rather than just siding with popular opinion.
[quote]Mark Langedijk was 41 and the [B]father of two small sons[/B][/quote] This makes it really hard for me to sympathize for this guy. My father was a really bad alcoholic (got help thankfully, and has been clean about 10 years now), but if he had taken such an easy out and left me without him, I'd have never forgiven him and most likely turned out a pretty bad kid. I hope the best for those two boys.
[QUOTE=coyote93;51469444]So you mean that it should only be a viable option for people who are going to die anyways? What about rape victims? [URL="http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/sex-abuse-victim-in-her-20s-allowed-by-dutch-doctors-to-undergo-euthanasia-due-to-severe-ptsd-a7023666.html"]Sex abuse victim allowed by dutch doctors to undergo euthanasia.[/URL] Do you think the doctors here, were wrong to allow her to die in this case as-well? People who live with disorders, syndroms, fucked up experiences or w/e, should be able to choose for themselves if they want to live or not. No one should be forced to stay alive if they actually want to die. Even if there isn't actually anything wrong with them, people should have the choice. By refusing people a legit and safe way to kill themselves, you are in a way making sure that there might be more victims, who gets hurt in some way when they choose to off themselves, either if its because they find the dead body, or the suicider chooses to jump out in front of their car, or something entirely else.[/QUOTE] Listen. I am very aware of the mental and horrible pain these people go through. I am absolutely supportive in their struggle. But death is an EXTREMELY drastic step and there is NO coming back from it. The vast majority of these issues can be dealt with in other ways. They can leave and have fulfilling lives. They don't need to die. I know this might make me sound callous or cold or whatever in not letting people choose to die, but mental issues and disorders can be treated. Illnesses where you are in constant physical pain and where you are going to guaranteed die are not. The person wanting to die could, through treatment and other experiences, not want to die anymore in the future. That's where the extreme ethical issues are for me. It's why I can't support it.
[QUOTE=BlackMageMari;51469500]Listen. I am very aware of the mental and horrible pain these people go through. I am absolutely supportive in their struggle. But death is an EXTREMELY drastic step and there is NO coming back from it. The vast majority of these issues can be dealt with in other ways. They can leave and have fulfilling lives. They don't need to die. I know this might make me sound callous or cold or whatever in not letting people choose to die, but mental issues and disorders can be treated. Illnesses where you are in constant physical pain and where you are going to guaranteed die are not. The person wanting to die could, through treatment and other experiences, not want to die anymore in the future. That's where the extreme ethical issues are for me. It's why I can't support it.[/QUOTE] The people in this thread's article and the one coyote linked have had treatment though, numerous times. It didn't work. That is why the doctors decided to give in to their wishes in these specific cases.
[QUOTE=zupadupazupadude;51469510]The people in this thread's article and the one coyote linked have had treatment though, numerous times. It didn't work. That is why the doctors decided to give in to their wishes.[/QUOTE] That is extremely awful and unfortunate, and perhaps then in certain extreme and rare circumstances, it can be allowed. But it's still such a conflicting thing. He's dead now, and now there's no chance he can be cured. There could be treatment out there not tried or not developed yet that could help him. I hope I don't sound cruel. I want what is best for people, and death to me is not a solution. It's an ending.
[QUOTE=BlackMageMari;51469520] But it's still such a conflicting thing. He's dead now, and now there's no chance he can be cured. There could be treatment out there not tried or not developed yet that could help him.[/QUOTE] And is that slight chance really worth going through months, maybe even years more of the agony the guy's been putting up with already?
[QUOTE=BlackMageMari;51469520]That is extremely awful and unfortunate, and perhaps then in certain extreme and rare circumstances, it can be allowed. But it's still such a conflicting thing. He's dead now, and now there's no chance he can be cured. There could be treatment out there not tried or not developed yet that could help him. I hope I don't sound cruel. I want what is best for people, and death to me is not a solution. It's an ending.[/QUOTE] I definitely get your concerns, but I also get why the doctors decided to allow it it's a complex thing
Oh trust me, I'm not an optimistic person in the slightest. At-least, about myself. I have some extreme... suicidal tendencies. I just disagree, I can't see it as a solution. I'm not sure it should be punished either, however. But again, that leaves so many ethical questions. It's simply something I have no real authority on. [editline]3rd December 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Sir Whoopsalot;51469529]And is that slight chance really worth going through months, maybe even years more of the agony the guy's been putting up with already?[/QUOTE] I can't be sure of that. But we can't know anyway now. I feel that if we allow this, we could inadvertently legitimise suicide in general, when it is no-where near a solution for the majority of cases.
[QUOTE=BlackMageMari;51469542] I can't be sure of that. But we can't know anyway now. I feel that if we allow this, we could inadvertently legitimise suicide in general, when it is no-where near a solution for the majority of cases.[/QUOTE] Hey, you do realize that this needs to be approved by two different doctors who both need to agree that the patient is currently facing a dour, hopeless existence with no hope of improvement? This isn't a case of 'yep his life sucks let's kill him', this shit takes time [I]because[/I] it's such a sensitive issue.
[QUOTE=Sir Whoopsalot;51468005]How does someone become [I]that[/I] bad of an alcoholic?[/QUOTE] Thats up for the individual to decide.
[QUOTE=BlackMageMari;51469500]Listen. I am very aware of the mental and horrible pain these people go through. I am absolutely supportive in their struggle. But death is an EXTREMELY drastic step and there is NO coming back from it. The vast majority of these issues can be dealt with in other ways. They can leave and have fulfilling lives. They don't need to die. I know this might make me sound callous or cold or whatever in not letting people choose to die, but mental issues and disorders can be treated. Illnesses where you are in constant physical pain and where you are going to guaranteed die are not. The person wanting to die could, through treatment and other experiences, not want to die anymore in the future. That's where the extreme ethical issues are for me. It's why I can't support it.[/QUOTE] The amount of paperwork and psychological tests you have to go through to legally commit suicide isn't anything to sniff at though. It's not like you can walk to your local hospital and go "alright I'd like to die please" and they'll go ahead with it. Our government placed 6 requirements for legal assisted suicide: 1. The request must be voluntary and well-considered by the patient. 2. The doctor agrees that the patient suffers unbearably and there is no hope on improvement 3. The patient must be well-informed as to what it entails 4. There is no other solution, like medical or psychological treatment 5. A second doctor(usually a psychologist) must be notified, who talks to the patient about his decision and the reason why he doesn't want to live anymore 6. The procedure must be medically sound
Is it more humane to keep someone alive, against their will and often in pain or grant them their wish. I understand suicide can be selfish, but normal people will never understand the torment that others face on a daily basis.
[QUOTE=BlackMageMari;51469377]I disagree heavily. Opening the door for assisted suicide for mental issues that can be cured is incredibly dangerous. It opens a whole can of ethical and awful issues. I'm for assisted suicide if the patient has an incurable, highly painful illness that will kill them, but while I heavily sympathise with the issues that man was going through, I'm not sure letting him die was the right thing.[/QUOTE] He is the singular owner of his body, its his call since he is of legal age and obviously had time to think about it no matter the reason. Not you nor any moral busybody should have a say in what people do with their body.
[QUOTE=Sir Whoopsalot;51469574]Hey, you do realize that this needs to be approved by two different doctors who both need to agree that the patient is currently facing a dour, hopeless existence with no hope of improvement? This isn't a case of 'yep his life sucks let's kill him', this shit takes time [I]because[/I] it's such a sensitive issue.[/QUOTE] I didn't know it needed to be approved by two different doctors. You're misrepresenting my position; I am blaming NO-ONE or saying that [I]in this specific case[/I] that it was the wrong decision. I don't want to prolong anyone's suffering. I just have some extreme concerns over giving people the right to die in the case of mental issues. I hope you can see why because I can understand your position. [editline]3rd December 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=FalconKrunch;51469587]The amount of paperwork and psychological tests you have to go through to legally commit suicide isn't anything to sniff at though. It's not like you can walk to your local hospital and go "alright I'd like to die please" and they'll go ahead with it. Our government placed 6 requirements for legal assisted suicide: 1. The request must be voluntary and well-considered by the patient. 2. The doctor agrees that the patient suffers unbearably and there is no hope on improvement 3. The patient must be well-informed as to what it entails 4. There is no other solution, like medical or psychological treatment 5. A second doctor(usually a psychologist) must be notified, who talks to the patient about his decision and the reason why he doesn't want to live anymore 6. The procedure must be medically sound[/QUOTE] That is more comforting to hear but it's still an extremely difficult ethical and moral thing. How many assisted suicides are there in the Netherlands?
[QUOTE=Robman8908;51469485]This makes it really hard for me to sympathize for this guy. My father was a really bad alcoholic (got help thankfully, and has been clean about 10 years now), but if he had taken such an easy out and left me without him, I'd have never forgiven him and most likely turned out a pretty bad kid. I hope the best for those two boys.[/QUOTE] I dunno about you, but in this situation I'd rather have the dead father instead of the very potentially abusive and unfit father. That might come off cold, but I'm aware of how alcoholism destroys lives and can have serious effects on others.
[QUOTE=BlackMageMari;51469598] I don't want to prolong anyone's suffering. I just have some extreme concerns over giving people the right to die in the case of mental issues. I hope you can see why because I can understand your position.[/QUOTE] Serious question here, genuine curiosity. If you don't want to prolong anyone's suffering and they've run out of hope to improve things, where exactly is the concern in giving someone the right to go out on their own terms? As I said and as has been posted above, euthanasia is not given out like candy, this is a thorough, well thought out process. Multiple people need to come to the exact conclusion where keeping on living is the worse option the patient has.
[QUOTE=BlackMageMari;51469598]I didn't know it needed to be approved by two different doctors. You're misrepresenting my position; I am blaming NO-ONE or saying that [I]in this specific case[/I] that it was the wrong decision. I don't want to prolong anyone's suffering. I just have some extreme concerns over giving people the right to die in the case of mental issues. I hope you can see why because I can understand your position. [editline]3rd December 2016[/editline] That is more comforting to hear but it's still an extremely difficult ethical and moral thing. How many assisted suicides are there in the Netherlands?[/QUOTE] In 2015 there were 5516 cases of assisted suicide.
[QUOTE=BlackMageMari;51469598] That is more comforting to hear but it's still an extremely difficult ethical and moral thing. How many assisted suicides are there in the Netherlands?[/QUOTE] The most recent numbers I could find real quick were about 5300 in 2014, just under 4% of all deaths that year.
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