[quote][t]http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/m16ad-600x260.jpg[/t]
A while back we blogged about an individual who took the Prince Law Office’s determination that, as a result of the ATF clarifying that “unincorporated trusts” are not “persons” under the Gun Control Act, it may have opened a way for trusts to manufacture new Post-86 machine guns. As I have written about before, machine guns are and have always been legal in the US, but those made and registered after 1986 are not legal for civilians to own, so we may only keep trading the ones already on the market.
Well a member of ar15.com submitted a form 1 for a machine gun (application for registration of an NFA firearm one produces) and it was approved… but don’t rejoice yet.
On September 10th, 2014 the stamp came back approved, bearing that green and all too familiar $200 stamp that would allow for a new machine gun to be made, but the man was immediately contacted by the ATF and was told that he must return the stamp and that it was/is not valid. The applicant says he is taking the issue to court, which could be very interesting for the NFA community. The man says the following in the massive thread:
“Stand by, because we will surely need contributions to a legal fund if it goes to court. All things considered, this looks like a realistic opportunity at taking back out rights to Machine Guns. If this fight starts moving forward, it’s going to take a monumental amount of commitment to see it through. Hold fast, everyone. We’re going to need all hands on deck for this one.”
While I wish the man the best and hope that somehow this opens the door for new MGs here in the USA, I do not see that happening. Of course the powers that be don’t want you to have cheap and readily available legal machine guns, so we will not get cheap and readily available legal machine guns but here are a few reasons why I am pessimistic:
The ATF tried to say that “unincorporated trusts” were not persons under the 1968 GCA in order to implement a set of rules that would have required all trustees to fill out form 4s, undergo NICS checks, and get CLEO signatures. If you remember, the public outcry during the comment period stopped this (or at least pushed it back). This came back to bite them in the ass, big time, because of, well, this whole bit of shenanigans.
The ATF flip flops all of the time. In just my memory as a young man, I have seen them approve devices like the Akins Accelerator (a spring assisted bump fire device) and then force them all the be recalled/have the springs removed, remember when they banned all shoestrings in the USA and then had to clarify that it was only when said strings were attached to firearms, and I remember when they said SBR engraving was not necessary and then decided that it was. This organization seems to have little oversight on the highest levels and, like many other government agencies, can make or rescind decisions on the fly.
There are 186,619 transferable machine guns in the USA, and this number is as fixed as fixed gets. The 1986 FOPA banned the new production of fully automatic firearms for civilians, and that’s that. What is perceived as a loophole by addressing a technicality, will not undo this act of congress.
Do I hope that one day we can all run down to our local gun stores and buy new machine guns? Absolutely! Do I think it will happen? Not at all. In fact, I get asked this all the time by just about every gun savy person who knows I am into machine guns. “Wadaya gunna do when they unban these? Your collection will be worth nuttin’!” Well sure I and many other people will take a hit, but I see the greater good in 3 gun matches with bursts of mighty automatic fire, sub-gun matches becoming mainstream, and the Texas Bellagio being visible from space.[/quote]
[url=http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2014/09/11/atf-approves-post-86-machine-gun-form-1/]The Firearm Blog[/url]
For anyone who hasn't a clue what this means - In 1986, the Gun Owner Protection Act(NFA 1986) had a bit of hitch hiker legislation known as the Hughes Amendment. The law has been a massive point of controversy within the community of gun owners which wish to collect military grade firearms that are automatics, burst fire, or otherwise have different firing modes away from semi-automatic. Why? Because it disallows gun manufactures, gunsmiths, or hobby gun owners from producing and registering their own automatic firearm with any parts that are Post-1986. Before this point, NFA registered automatics only accounted for roughly three murders in the United States, of which one was conducted in self-defense by a police informant.
What is going on right now is that the ATF is giving leeway, slowly but surely to reallow for the production of components and firearms in specification of automatic or burst fire modes. This means that gun owners who maintain these firearms, be it hobby or for education purposes, will now be able to purchase new components which will ensure the safety of any users that use the firearm. It also means that someone could theoretically register a Luty or Holmes MP. :v:
Either way, this is a good step in my eyes as it'll ensure that the NFA can go back to it's status of allowing people to own automatic firearms with a respectful amount of keep-eye on things like safes and such.
Before anyone flips their shit and starts a massive debacle, let me remind people that the registration process to own one of the damned things is past the six months of work mark.
[B]And that for you have a home made automatic takes under an hour. [/B](I.e. the 'criminal' element.)
This isn't a blanket "ERRYONE SHOULD HAVE AN AUTOMATIC IN THEIR CLOSET" argument, but being unable to persue a [I]fucking hobby [/I]because of some nitwit's outdated legisltation sort of doesn't make sense anymore. Especially not given how you can spend around $300, head down south, spend another $300, and then own a damned fully automatic AR.
I expect there is already another letter in the mail recanting that mistake.
[QUOTE=Worldwaker;46021797]Before anyone flips their shit and starts a massive debacle, let me remind people that the registration process to own one of the damned things is past the six months of work mark.
[B]And that for you have a home made automatic takes under an hour. [/B](I.e. the 'criminal' element.)
This isn't a blanket "ERRYONE SHOULD HAVE AN AUTOMATIC IN THEIR CLOSET" argument, but being unable to persue a [I]fucking hobby [/I]because of some nitwit's outdated legisltation sort of doesn't make sense anymore. Especially not given how you can spend around $300, head down south, spend another $300, and then own a damned fully automatic AR.[/QUOTE]
Plus the fact that nearly no one uses automatics or rifles to commit crimes compared to the numbers committed with cheap, small handguns.
I'm pretty sure the day this law gets shot down is the day my dad will probably cry tears of joy
Those who oppose this new look at the registration need to understand that the '86 law protected nobody from anything in reality.
A gangbanger isn't going to wait 6+ months with extensive background checks and paperwork for a gun.
[QUOTE=Worldwaker;46021797]Before anyone flips their shit and starts a massive debacle, let me remind people that the registration process to own one of the damned things is past the six months of work mark.
[B]And that for you have a home made automatic takes under an hour. [/B](I.e. the 'criminal' element.)
This isn't a blanket "ERRYONE SHOULD HAVE AN AUTOMATIC IN THEIR CLOSET" argument, but being unable to persue a [I]fucking hobby [/I]because of some nitwit's outdated legisltation sort of doesn't make sense anymore. Especially not given how you can spend around $300, head down south, spend another $300, and then own a damned fully automatic AR.[/QUOTE]
Thanks for the info, I was going to step right into that argument.
Anyways: Bad people will be bad people and so on and so forth. I think we're all clear on that. Hell, if I'd live in the US I'd probably collect guns as well. I just find them fascinating.
[QUOTE=KILLTHIS;46022097]Thanks for the info, I was going to step right into that argument.
Anyways: Bad people will be bad people and so on and so forth. I think we're all clear on that. Hell, if I'd live in the US I'd probably collect guns as well. I just find them fascinating.[/QUOTE]
You know you can do that in Germany too, right? Granted, the guns are a lot more expensive there (€400 for an old Chilean Mauser that's $320 in Canada), and apparently the license is something you have to actually study for (I've heard it referred to as the "green diploma" before), but it's still possible for you to collect guns in Germany.
[editline]19th September 2014[/editline]
If you're interested, the place I visited in Berlin was [url= http://frankonia.de/]Frankonia[/url], and they've got a number of locations across the country. They could probably tell you better than I what you need to do to get a gun in Germany.
[QUOTE=Stren;46021938]Plus the fact that nearly no one uses automatics or rifles to commit crimes compared to the numbers committed with cheap, small handguns.[/QUOTE]
It's something like a terribly small number of guns that are owned are used in crimes (We're talking 90 houses per 100 in a nation of 300 Million have at least one gun on average) And of those guns used in crimes, something like 3% are rifles. They just can't be concealed or used as easily. Nevermind a machinegun, now you know why only 3 people were killed with one, and even then, as the OP said, one was by an officer
Also, about half the deaths from guns are suicides
But hey, who cares about MGs. You can buy a decent condition Garand for $700 if you don't mind waiting 3-9 months for delivery
short barreled rifle law is an even bigger load of bullshit
i cant have the gun my grandfather jumped out of planes with without the stock being welded shut
I just want the NFA to be repealed. I want to put a silencer on my .22, but the 9-12 month wait time for tax stamp approval is a huge turn off.
[QUOTE=SHIG;46022532]I just want the NFA to be repealed. I want to put a silencer on my .22, but the 9-12 month wait time for tax stamp approval is a huge turn off.[/QUOTE]
Meanwhile in New Zealand you go on the internet and pay $50 for a new silencer. A few days later it arrives at your door.
[QUOTE=SHIG;46022532]I just want the NFA to be repealed. I want to put a silencer on my .22, but the 9-12 month wait time for tax stamp approval is a huge turn off.[/QUOTE]
At least you have that possibility, here they're just illegal. Why? Knowing the dumbass logic used for the rest of our laws it's probably so that "Gangbangers won't be able to shoot each other in the middle of the street and nobody will hear it."
By the way, to anyone thinking automatics will cause more problems
consider this: An automatic ANYTHING has a minimum price tag of $15,000, and a maximum price tag of $500,000+. No criminal or psychopath would even bother, it's just too costly for them to even consider this path.
On top of that, most criminals buy cheap handguns because they're literally disposable. They toss the things in the garbage once they've committed a crime.
[QUOTE=Binladen34;46022713]By the way, to anyone thinking automatics will cause more problems
consider this: An automatic ANYTHING has a minimum price tag of $15,000, and a maximum price tag of $500,000+. No criminal or psychopath would even bother, it's just too costly for them to even consider this path.
On top of that, most criminals buy cheap handguns because they're literally disposable. They toss the things in the garbage once they've committed a crime.[/QUOTE]
Not really... If we're ever allowed to purchase real automatic rifles like those given to law enforcement, they'll be cheaper than the semi-automatic equivalent. Already dealers with an Law Enforcement demo certificate get to buy M4 style rifles for $1200 a piece identical to some military issue. The guns that cost $15,000 are the ones listed above, short supply and difficult to maintain since they require original parts. New rifles on the other hand are mass produced, the amount of semi auto arms produced for the civilian U.S market is nothing compared to what manufacturers put out worldwide. It costs them more to make rifles for us.
What also helps deter the common criminal is the NFA stamp process. A lot of the times you'll go into a gun store, buy a suppressed or SBR rifle, and they get to lock it up in a safe for 6+ months while the ATF runs it's background checks. Some people don't see their rifles for a year during a busy period. It would be the same process if you wanted an automatic rifle. Overall, between the cost and waiting period, this would be a bad investment for anyone wanting to do some damage.
[QUOTE=Binladen34;46022713]By the way, to anyone thinking automatics will cause more problems
consider this: An automatic ANYTHING has a minimum price tag of $15,000, and a maximum price tag of $500,000+. No criminal or psychopath would even bother, it's just too costly for them to even consider this path.
On top of that, most criminals buy cheap handguns because they're literally disposable. They toss the things in the garbage once they've committed a crime.[/QUOTE]
The only reason they're $15k is because of the post-86 ban. Without it the price will drop drastically.
Hopefully I get to own an MG at some point in my life c:
Finally I can buy an M60 and set up a machine-gun nest in my house. The burglars will never see it coming.
would automatic handguns and submachine guns fit under this
[QUOTE=download;46022834]The only reason they're $15k is because of the post-86 ban. Without it the price will drop drastically.[/QUOTE]
Well, a high pricetag does help the guns stay out of the hands of people who intend to do ill and only the comitted collector will bother spending the money.
[QUOTE=Ninja Gnome;46024195]would automatic handguns and submachine guns fit under this[/QUOTE]
Yes. Anything that fires more than one bullet per trigger movement is classified as a machine gun.
I use the term "movement" since there's a legal trigger for the AR15 that fires on pull and release of the trigger.
[QUOTE=Ninja Gnome;46024195]would automatic handguns and submachine guns fit under this[/QUOTE]
Yes.
Full-auto NFA items trump all other NFA items.
[QUOTE=Ninja Gnome;46024195]would automatic handguns and submachine guns fit under this[/QUOTE]
"automatic" refers to how the weapon cycles. You can already buy "automatic" pistols. A Glock 17 is an automatic pistol because it automatically cycles using the gases from the previous round
You cannot buy "machine guns" -- which means more than one bullet comes out with one pull of the trigger.
.. if I'm wrong, someone please clarify.
Key part of the article:
[quote]On September 10th, 2014 the stamp came back approved, bearing that green and all too familiar $200 stamp that would allow for a new machine gun to be made, but the man was immediately [B]contacted by the ATF and was told that he must return the stamp and that it was/is not valid[/B]. The applicant says he is[B] taking the issue to court[/B], which could be very interesting for the NFA community. [/quote]
cant buy them yet, people. Sorry.
[editline]19th September 2014[/editline]
this is also a blog post.
[QUOTE=Binladen34;46022713]By the way, to anyone thinking automatics will cause more problems
consider this: An automatic ANYTHING has a minimum price tag of $15,000, and a maximum price tag of $500,000+. No criminal or psychopath would even bother, it's just too costly for them to even consider this path.
On top of that, most criminals buy cheap handguns because they're literally disposable. They toss the things in the garbage once they've committed a crime.[/QUOTE]
What if they have no intention of living afterwards? Just sayin'.
I can't wait for them to legalize machine guns.
I won't an MP5 and RDIAS sooo bad.
[QUOTE=BazzBerry;46024528]What if they have no intention of living afterwards? Just sayin'.[/QUOTE]
It'd be cheaper to build a Luty/Holmes or just taking a SKS and giving her an ugly bumpinator stock.
[QUOTE=POLOPOZOZO;46022413]short barreled rifle law is an even bigger load of bullshit
i cant have the gun my grandfather jumped out of planes with without the stock being welded shut[/QUOTE]
It's barrel length, not overall length, that matters when it comes to short barreled rifles. If the barrel length is 16.5"+ then it's legal. I'm assuming it's an M1A1 Carbine, those are perfectly legal, and many historic rifles are exempted from the law, like the C96 being a pistol with a stock/holster, and the Lebel Carbine, which has a barrel shorter than 16 inches.
[editline]19th September 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=download;46022834]The only reason they're $15k is because of the post-86 ban. Without it the price will drop drastically.[/QUOTE]
They are still going to continue being a fair bit more expensive than it would be to do it illegally. Considering the paper that says you can own it is harder to acquire than the actual firearm.
[QUOTE=BazzBerry;46024528]What if they have no intention of living afterwards? Just sayin'.[/QUOTE]
There isn't much you can do to stop somebody who is willing to comitt a suicide attack.
Whats the point?
[QUOTE=proboardslol;46025199]Whats the point?[/QUOTE]
They're fun, and there've been two times a civilian's committed a crime with a legally owned full-auto so the ban on them is quite senseless and until it's repealed people are going to keep trying new ways to get around it.
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