Many Women Leave Engineering, Blame The Work Culture
86 replies, posted
[URL="http://www.npr.org/blogs/alltechconsidered/2014/08/12/339638726/many-women-leave-engineering-blame-the-work-culture"]NPR Link[/URL]
[quote=NPR]The study found that only 17 percent of women left engineering because of caregiving reasons, which Fouad said dispels the notion that pregnancy plays a big part in keeping women out. But she does point out that many of those who did leave to stay home with children did so because their companies did not offer flexible enough work-life policies that met their concerns.
Fouad also said lack of confidence was not a factor as to why women left engineering — her study found no difference in confidence levels between those who left or stayed in the field.
Although there are many programs in place at undergraduate universities to feed the engineering pipeline, she said that when those same women graduate and enter the work force, that's when they face the problems that ultimately cause them to exit engineering.
"It's not women who need to change, it's the work environment that does," she said.
Fouad offered some recommendations for engineering companies looking to retain their women employees. She says that these organizations first need to recognize the problem, and then commit to change at the leadership level. That way change can perpetuate throughout the system.
But not everyone agrees with Fouad's findings.
"Women aren't leaving engineering to go and hide in a corner. They are leaving for many reasons which a study like this may not find," said Elizabeth Bierman, president of the Society of Women Engineers and an aerospace engineer for 20 years. "The work environment may be one reason but for the majority it is not the case."
Her organization recently conducted its own retention study and found that although women do leave the engineering workplace faster than men, they do so for a variety of reasons. Many of those reasons, such as lack of a work/life balance, also resonate with men, Bierman said.
The bigger problem facing women and engineering, she said, is getting more women into the engineering pipeline. Bierman says companies looking to retain both women and men should improve their work/life balance policies.[/quote]
[B]TL;DR For Lazy Fucks[/B]
Basically, a study was conducted amongst women who left the engineering field and the largest component by far was the work environment being hostile toward women. Pregnancy was actually found to be a minimal reason but for a lot of them the reason pregnancy was an issue was non-flexible hours.
Alright guys, rules for fighting: Nothing below the belt, no insults on one's intelligence or they're perceived ignorance.
Ready, [B]FIGHT.[/B]
You don't have to be a feminist to acknowledge that sexism is a major problem within our society.
Hopefully they managed to find a job suitable for them after quitting this, nothing good about being unemployed, even worse for reasons like this.
And people tried to tell me the reason women avoided these jobs was "bio truths"
Aren't they criticizing the lack of flexibility in the STEM field? I heard that all workers are burdened with numerous tasks and they often have to work overtime.
[QUOTE=ilikecorn;45674183]Reading the article; one of the women they interviewed said this: She left due to male dominated culture (Male conversation topics, long hours, demanding lifestyle, and career focused expectations)
While I agree that there are issues with sexism in the work place, long hours and a "demanding lifestyle" is the very nature of an engineer, being male doesn't exactly excuse you from either.[/QUOTE]
One reason men do make more money than women is that they [URL="http://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2012/04/16/its-time-that-we-end-the-equal-pay-myth/"]work more hours[/URL] than women.
Also there's the whole motherhood thing which takes women out of the loop for awhile, a demanding field like engineering wouldn't permit that as well as fields women typically graduate in.
If their problem is the work environment though, quitting doesn't really help, if they want change, women have to choose to graduate in engineering, and to take jobs in engineering.
[QUOTE=Swilly;45674131]
[B]non-flexible hours[/B].
[/QUOTE]
You don't go into engineering for flexible hours, you go into it because you are a nerd and something and enjoy it.
I Honestly don't know how many 60-80 hour weeks I have pulled in my 5 years of being an engineer just because I either needed to get shit done, or I was tinkering on making stuff better.
[QUOTE=ilikecorn;45674183]
The study argues that maybe employers desiring to keep people around should "rebalance work and home"; and while I agree completely, people need to also realize that the company exists to make money, not be convenient to you. People need to do a hell of a lot more research before they get into a field.[/QUOTE]
Pretty much this, engineers are paid high because they put in an absurd amount of work, engineering is not an easy or balancable thing. Problem came up? Customer needs X optimized? Go live date got shortened by budget? Engineers have to be willing to put up with this shit, well the good ones anyways...
[QUOTE=ilikecorn;45674183]Reading the article; one of the women they interviewed said this: She left due to male dominated culture (Male conversation topics, [B]long hours, demanding lifestyle, and career focused expectations)[/B]
[/QUOTE]
This is true of pretty much any high-end technical field, not just engineering.
[QUOTE=ilikecorn;45674228]Furthermore: The study said "17 percent of women left engineering because of caregiving reasons, which Fouad said dispels the notion that pregnancy plays a big part in keeping women out. But she does point out that many of those who did leave to stay home with children did so because their companies did not offer flexible enough work-life policies that met their concerns."
Hell, i'd like to stay at home with my kids more too, but seriously, you can't expect a company to tell you that "yea you can totally take off" all the time to hang out with your kids.[/QUOTE]
My boss (software engineer) "works at home" sometimes aka is taking care of his kids and doesn't respond to emails for 3 hours.
[QUOTE=ilikecorn;45674183]Reading the article; one of the women they interviewed said this: She left due to male dominated culture (Male conversation topics, long hours, demanding lifestyle, and career focused expectations)
While I agree that there are issues with sexism in the work place, long hours and a "demanding lifestyle" is the very nature of an engineer, being male doesn't exactly excuse you from either.[/QUOTE]
Also when the majority of people working there are male, does it count as sexism if they discuss male conversation topics? It just seems like something that occurs in any workplace dominated by one gender.
A big part of these surveys is to be wary of the reasons people report things and if they actually lead back to the cause you're looking for. For issues like not getting promoted, you can easily blame it on something obvious like being female, but just as with everyone else who isn't promoted there's a million more factors at play and just believing it was due to gender discrimination doesn't make it so. Whether women face more or less discrimination is definitely something to be explored, but self-reporting is notoriously flawed.
[QUOTE=sloppy_joes;45674245]My boss (software engineer) "works at home" sometimes aka is taking care of his kids and doesn't respond to emails for 3 hours.[/QUOTE]
If he is a manager/supervisor, he shouldn't be coding much of the time anyways. He should be reviewing code that needs review, delegating tasks to other coders, and ensuring that quality and deadlines are met.
Did anyone actually read the "results." They're a complete joke. By their own admission many of the respondents that they used volunteered their own answers without being asked. This is like high school level incompetence.
"Women from an additional 200 colleges participated in the survey after hearing of this study through colleagues" (pg. 9, [URL]http://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2014/08/pushed-back.pdf[/URL])
Also, literally none of the actual questions listed were about a bad culture towards women. The closest it comes is, "Didn't like the engineering culture" as a possible reason for never entering the field. (don't ask me how you can know the culture without entering the field)
A lot of the percentages don't even add up to 100%... I would be embarrassed to hell and back if my name were anywhere near this steaming pile of crap. I've seen high school studies that looked more professional and had less obvious methodological errors.
[QUOTE=sgman91;45674262]Did anyone actually read the "results." They're a complete joke. By their own admission many of the respondents volunteered their own answers without being asked and were used in the study. This is like high school level incompetence in attempting to do a real study.
"Women from an additional 200 colleges participated in the survey after hearing of this study through colleagues" (pg. 9, [URL]http://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2014/08/pushed-back.pdf[/URL])
Also, literally none of the actual questions listed were about a bad culture towards women. The closest it comes is, "Didn't like the engineering culture."[/QUOTE]
Shut up you misogynist pig
[highlight](User was permabanned for this post ("Gimmick" - BANNED USER))[/highlight]
[QUOTE=Tumblr;45674283]Shut up you misogynist pig[/QUOTE]
Did maxofs2d make a new alt?
[QUOTE=Devodiere;45674252]Also when the majority of people working there are male, does it count as sexism if they discuss male conversation topics? It just seems like something that occurs in any workplace dominated by one gender.[/QUOTE]
Define "male conversation topics". That term is ambiguous and can mean anything from pornography/sex, which is inappropriate, to stereotypical things like hunting, fishing, cars, etc....
I'm assuming the latter, because "male dominated culture" was used instead of "sexist/derogatory conversation topics".
I also don't see how "career focused expectations" was such a blindside. It's pretty common sense that an employer who hires let's say a civil engineer for roadway design is NOT going to care if you know how to properly fry a turkey. You're not going to be expected to make a perfect soufle. How could you not expect that one?????
[QUOTE=Silence I Kill You;45674334]Define "male conversation topics". That term is ambiguous and can mean anything from pornography/sex, which is inappropriate, to stereotypical things like hunting, fishing, cars, etc....
I'm assuming the latter, because "male dominated culture" was used instead of "sexist/derogatory conversation topics".
I also don't see how "career focused expectations" was such a blindside. It's pretty common sense that an employer who hires let's say a civil engineer for roadway design is NOT going to care if you know how to properly fry a turkey. You're not going to be expected to make a perfect soufle. How could you not expect that one?????[/QUOTE]
I'm starting to think they left it vague on purpose so that they can spin it how they want.
[QUOTE=JohnFisher89;45674255]If he is a manager/supervisor, he shouldn't be coding much of the time anyways. He should be reviewing code that needs review, delegating tasks to other coders, and ensuring that quality and deadlines are met.[/QUOTE]
Yeah I know what managers do.
In my opinion working at home will fix a lot of the "have to take care of the kids" thing. You can both look after your kids, and work (in some sense), since physically being at the office isn't really required with the 21st century level of connectivity.
Also daycare here is pretty expensive, from what I've heard.
[QUOTE=ilikecorn;45674274]Quoting the study: “ To advance, it seems as though you must be willing and able to
work 50+ hours/week and often be on-call 24/7.”
GEE, I WONDER WHY THEY'D ADVANCE SOMEONE LIKE THAT? Maybe because they worked their fucking ass off to ensure that the job was done correctly. Want to get advanced? Be better than your co-workers; give them a reason to advance you.[/QUOTE]
I'm pretty sure that the point that statement is that if you are a women and have a child you are pretty much fucked in that department. Because as the mother you are [I]generally[/I] expected to be with the child a lot. But fathers really don't have that sort of expectation [I]generally[/I]. Like if both the father and the mother work than generally the mother is expected to sacrifice her work for the family instead of the father.
[QUOTE=kaine123;45674149]You don't have to be a feminist to acknowledge that sexism is a major problem within our society.[/QUOTE]
Nah, are you kidding? There's no sexism issues with Republicans in office!
:v:
[QUOTE=Valnar;45674363]I'm pretty sure that the point that statement is that if you are a women and have a child you are pretty much fucked in that department. Because as the mother you are [I]generally[/I] expected to be with the child a lot. But fathers really don't have that sort of expectation [I]generally[/I]. Like if both the father and the mother work than generally the mother is expected to sacrifice her work for the family instead of the father.[/QUOTE]
Based on personal experience the person making the most money usually stays employed full time and doesn't take as many breaks to take care of the child. This is usually the father.
[QUOTE=Valnar;45674363]I'm pretty sure that the point that statement is that if you are a women and have a child you are pretty much fucked in that department. Because as the mother you are [I]generally[/I] expected to be with the child a lot. But fathers really don't have that sort of expectation [I]generally[/I]. Like if both the father and the mother work than generally the mother is expected to sacrifice her work for the family instead of the father.[/QUOTE]
Even if the males are expected to stay at home to watch over the kids, the mothers still have months of pregnancy to deal with. The time gone can provide advantages to other co-workers to put them ahead when it comes to promotions and the stuff.
[QUOTE=Silence I Kill You;45674334]Define "male conversation topics". That term is ambiguous and can mean anything from pornography/sex, which is inappropriate, to stereotypical things like hunting, fishing, cars, etc....
I'm assuming the latter, because "male dominated culture" was used instead of "sexist/derogatory conversation topics".
I also don't see how "career focused expectations" was such a blindside. It's pretty common sense that an employer who hires let's say a civil engineer for roadway design is NOT going to care if you know how to properly fry a turkey. You're not going to be expected to make a perfect soufle. How could you not expect that one?????[/QUOTE]
Inappropriate stuff aside, I get how having almost no interests in common with colleagues and few friends is a shitty way to be. Of course if you leave the field altogether because of that rather than getting work at a place where you do have friends, that's not really a smart move.
[QUOTE=ilikecorn;45674374]That may be true, but since the mother's an engineer, unless the father is in some sort of position that pays more, it's irresponsible as fuck for her to leave her higher paying job, when the father can do the same. Society has change to the point that a "stay at home dad" is perfectly acceptable.[/QUOTE]
Well it may not be fully there, there are still some issues, but damn if there's not a good push for it.
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_Husbands[/url]
It probably doesn't help that almost every engineering/computer science class at university is 100% male.
I'm wondering how many of these women got into engineering because they loved it/love problem solving, and how many of these women got into engineering because "lots of money" or pressure from people to have more women in "male dominated fields".
The reason I'm wondering this is because if they didn't get into the field for the right reasons, then that could be a LARGE reason why they are displeased with it, or it didn't meet their expectations....
Engineering isn't male dominated because of the workplace itself. I'm an engineering student and there are literally no women in any of my engineering classes. It's not because the workplaces aren't accommodating enough. There aren't very many women even getting degrees. Even when I started classes, there was only a single female in our group of 30 or more students.
I'm going into first year engineering in less than a month and I really hope the students don't live up to the reputation because if they do, it'll push me out too. Sexists are insufferable. Here's hoping the [i]"As an engineer... [shitpost]"[/i] types are loud minorities.
[QUOTE=Zeke129;45674534]I'm going into first year engineering in less than a month and I really hope the students don't live up to the reputation because if they do, it'll push me out too. Sexists are insufferable. Here's hoping the [i]"As an engineer... [shitpost]"[/i] types are loud minorities.[/QUOTE]
Most engineers are heavy drinkers, and like to play video games.
That about sums it up
[QUOTE=Zeke129;45674534]I'm going into first year engineering in less than a month and I really hope the students don't live up to the reputation because if they do, it'll push me out too. Sexists are insufferable. Here's hoping the [i]"As an engineer... [shitpost]"[/i] types are loud minorities.[/QUOTE]
Engineering used to be a lot of introvert nerdy types, but now there are a LOT of dude-bros getting into it because money and chicks. You just have to filter them out.
[QUOTE=Zeke129;45674534]I'm going into first year engineering in less than a month and I really hope the students don't live up to the reputation because if they do, it'll push me out too. Sexists are insufferable. Here's hoping the [I]"As an engineer... [shitpost]"[/I] types are loud minorities.[/QUOTE]
I'm in engineering, pretty much most engineers smell bad and don't talk to anybody.
[QUOTE=Silence I Kill You;45674563]Engineering used to be a lot of introvert nerdy types, but now there are a LOT of dude-bros getting into it because money and chicks. You just have to filter them out.[/QUOTE]
Depends on the school. It's still mostly nerdy types, a lot of them drop down to something else.
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