• Russia threatens NATO, U.S. over offering Ukraine membership
    25 replies, posted
[img]http://s2.reutersmedia.net/resources/r/?m=02&d=20140904&t=2&i=969980656&w=&fh=&fw=&ll=700&pl=378&r=LYNXMPEA830BC[/img] [url]http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/09/04/uk-ukraine-crisis-lavrov-idUKKBN0GZ0SP20140904[/url] [quote](Reuters) - Russia's foreign minister warned NATO not to offer Ukraine membership of the alliance as it gathered for a summit on Thursday and told the United States not to try to impose its will on the former Soviet republic. Sergei Lavrov also urged Kiev and pro-Russian rebels fighting Ukrainian forces in eastern Ukraine to back peace moves outlined by President Vladimir Putin and avert what he said could be a large-scale crisis in the heart of Europe. Putin unveiled the seven-point plan on Wednesday, the eve of a NATO summit at which the crisis in Ukraine will be discussed. "It is precisely at such a moment when a chance has emerged to start solving specific problems between Kiev and the militias that some sections of the Kiev authorities make demands for Ukraine to drop its non-aligned status and start joining NATO," Lavrov said at talks with the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe, a rights and security group. "It's a blatant attempt to derail all efforts aimed at initiating a dialogue on ensuring national reconciliation." Moscow has long said it will regard NATO membership for Ukraine as a national security threat. Underlining Moscow's concerns about U.S. influence on Kiev, Lavrov said: "Some of our Western partners, including unfortunately the most influential players - the United States - want victory for NATO and a situation where America dictates its will to everyone." "This concept of exclusivity, which President (Barack) Obama has repeatedly declared, can lead to no good and has so far led to no good," he said. Lavrov promised Russia would take "practical steps" to de-escalate the crisis in Ukraine and urged Kiev and rebel leaders to accept Putin's proposals for a ceasefire.[/quote] Russia can't get over the fact that no one in Eastern Europe actually likes them.
The faster Putin falls off power the better, just hope no one follows his steps. Only a mad man talks about being threatened and promoting peace after creating war in and with another country like he's a victim.
[QUOTE=Gwoodman;45889882]The faster Putin falls off power the better, just hope no one follows his steps. Only a mad man talks about being threatened and promoting peace after creating war in and with another country like he's a victim.[/QUOTE] Well I would prefer if they followed his steps and lost power myself.
[QUOTE=download;45889894]Well I would prefer if they followed his steps and lost power myself.[/QUOTE] I'm guessing he means that he hopes the next in line wouldn't actually start any stupid shit in the first place.
Well of course since it makes attacking ukraine not an option any more.
I still think it has to be some sort of situational irony how the Ukraine situation is literally giving NATO the purpose it's been searching for; thanks Russia!
[QUOTE=Fatfatfatty;45889909]Well of course since it makes attacking ukraine not an option any more.[/QUOTE] Ukraine would need to join first, which would require all members to agree.
What's he gonna do, sanction us?
give ukraine membership just so russia can go fuck it self.
Putin, stop being a little bitch. Sincerely, the world.
[QUOTE=Alxnotorious;45890062]What's he gonna do, sanction us?[/QUOTE] He'd probably cut off gas to Europe if Ukraine did join NATO.
[QUOTE=Kigen;45890597]He'd probably cut off gas to Europe if Ukraine did join NATO.[/QUOTE] This isn't really a problem. The EU has enough gas reserve to last it the winter and the U.S. and Canada have enough supply and reserve to not even make a drop if they were to supply the EU with natural gas. Gas prices would rise probably, but it wouldn't be the end of the EU.
Russia just doesn't want them to join NATO because then Ukraine will be safe. Who cares if America is imposing our will on Ukraine. Our will is stronger and better than the Russian will.
[QUOTE=draugur;45890847]This isn't really a problem. The EU has enough gas reserve to last it the winter and the U.S. and Canada have enough supply and reserve to not even make a drop if they were to supply the EU with natural gas. Gas prices would rise probably, but it wouldn't be the end of the EU.[/QUOTE] Good luck transporting the fuel over. You would need a pipeline which would take years and billions to build.
[QUOTE=draugur;45890847]This isn't really a problem. The EU has enough gas reserve to last it the winter.[/QUOTE] I wouldn't trust that any good deal or service guarantee could be created before the new year.
On one hand, historically speaking this makes sense for Russia to be worried about this. Russia has suffered major invasions three times in the past three centuries, and typically tries setting up buffer states so that it will not happen again (except in the case of WWI, where they withdrew from the war). Ukraine joining Russia means that NATO will be able to reach Russian territory from Norway, the Baltics, and now Ukraine. On the other hand, Putin is a whiny little bitch who likes threatening the most powerful military alliance on the planet because he thinks it makes him look tough and resolved. [editline] [/editline] i meant if Ukraine joins NATO, what the fuck did I just type
[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;45891328]Good luck transporting the fuel over. You would need a pipeline which would take years and billions to build.[/QUOTE] What are tanker ships and what do they transport? [editline]4th September 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=MrEndangered;45891378]I wouldn't trust that any good deal or service guarantee could be created before the new year.[/QUOTE] It'd be really costly for the U.S. and EU, but it could be done in a few months time, especially if our governments actually got off their lazy asses and tried to solve the problem. Quite a bit of natural gas can come from North Africa as well, a few countries there produce quite a bit of it, that could end up being a rather stable solution for a pipeline however. Alternatively, you could also do all of that AND start the way into more green energy like solar, wind and nuclear. Oh wait, people are still shitting their uninformed pants over fucking Japan.
[QUOTE=draugur;45891414]What are tanker ships and what do they transport?[/QUOTE] Ah! I'm glad you asked! Germany imported 10 billion cubic meters of gas from russia in 2013. according to wikipedia tankers carry [quote]In recent years, the size and capacity of LNG carriers has increased greatly. Since 2005, Qatargas has pioneered the development of two new classes of LNG carriers, referred to as Q-Flex and Q-Max. Each ship has a cargo capacity of between 210,000 and 266,000 cubic meters and is equipped with a re-liquefaction plant.[/quote] I'll use 250,000 for ease of calculation, bearing in mind this is more than the average and some tankers will be significantly less considering they are older, so my figure will be low. So thats at least 40000 trips. Thats over 100 tankers per day transporting natural gas from the US and Canada to Germany, assuming all the tankers are 250,000 capacity, no wastage, no accidents. This is why they would need a pipe line. The amount they use could be reduced but this would take time and affect their industry.
[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;45891482]Ah! I'm glad you asked! Germany imported 10 billion cubic meters of gas from russia in 2013. according to wikipedia tankers carry I'll use 250,000 for ease of calculation, bearing in mind this is more than the average and some tankers will be significantly less considering they are older, so my figure will be low. So thats at least 40000 trips. Thats over 100 tankers per day transporting natural gas from the US and Canada to Germany, assuming all the tankers are 250,000 capacity, no wastage, no accidents. This is why they would need a pipe line. The amount they use could be reduced but this would take time and affect their industry.[/QUOTE] So we should just bow down to Russia over the EU's idiotic dependency on their natural gas? Tankers would be able to transport enough gas to avert full crisis for a while, and if we properly mobilized it would end up being Berlin Airlift levels of fucking awesome. Anyway, as I said, the solution really comes from fixing the issue in many ways, tankers being a small part of said fix. North Africa, the UK, Norway and various other nearby places have Nat Gas too. Then again nuclear, solar and wind are still incredibly viable solutions as well. It would be best to try to solve this problem now, before it could turn into a full scale war and the EU has no solution even partially formed.
Yes, foreign powers shouldn't try to impose their will on a sovern country's government now shouldn't they Russia...
[quote]Russia's foreign minister warned NATO not to offer Ukraine membership of the alliance as it gathered for a summit on Thursday and told the United States not to [U]try to impose its will on the former Soviet republic.[/U][/quote]You first.
[QUOTE=Thom12255;45889845]Russia can't get over the fact that no one in Eastern Europe actually likes them.[/QUOTE] If Russia was a kid in a schoolyard they'd be a fat kid trying to steal another kid's toy and when other people try to intervene they start punching everyone
[QUOTE=Sableye;45892145]Yes, foreign powers shouldn't try to impose their will on a sovern country's government now shouldn't they Russia...[/QUOTE] I'm not in support of Russia, but hell I could say the same thing about the US.
[QUOTE=TornadoAP;45894507]I'm not in support of Russia, but hell I could say the same thing about the US.[/QUOTE] Yeah we are kind of a schoolyard bully as well, but we are more of the charming schoolyard bully with a massive clique. All the teachers like us, we have a lot of friends, and this means we can get away with being shitheads. Still, Russia was in the wrong with this invasion and we shouldn't just sit back and let them walk all over Ukraine.
[QUOTE=TornadoAP;45894507]I'm not in support of Russia, but hell I could say the same thing about the US.[/QUOTE] So what's your point, then?
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