Majority in poll say Florida students 'effective advocates for gun control' - Polidicks

[quote]Nearly half of respondents in a new poll believe the Florida students advocating publicly for gun control reform are “being manipulated by outside groups” – at least in part. But in findings that underline the divisions over the issue, the poll showed that seven in 10 respondents said they had seen the students on television, and [B]six in 10 thought they were “effective advocates for gun control”.[/B] --- A majority of respondents in the Monmouth University poll of 800 American adults said they believed the Parkland students were having more impact on the gun debate than victims of previous mass shootings. [B] But nearly a quarter of respondents said they believed this activism was “being manipulated by outside groups”.[/B] The feeling was strongest among self-identified members of the NRA, 61% of whom said they believed the students were being manipulated. [B]Forty-seven percent of respondents, by contrast, said the students were “advocating for issues they really believe in”. [/B]Another 27% said the students’ activism was shaped by both their own beliefs and outside manipulation. Five percent didn’t know.[/quote] [url]https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/mar/09/florida-students-are-being-manipulated-by-outside-groups-say-many-in-poll[/url]

Of course they are. There was just a shooting that made the news, it's all anyone's gossiping about, so of course they're gonna say that. Give 'em a couple months and they'll go back to whatever other outrage they'd been focusing on before the shooting.

[QUOTE=TestECull;53193024]Of course they are. There was just a shooting that made the news, it's all anyone's gossiping about, so of course they're gonna say that. Give 'em a couple months and they'll go back to whatever other outrage they'd been focusing on before the shooting.[/QUOTE] Or there'll be another shooting

And I'm willing to say that probably no more then 2% actually have any grasp on gun laws in this country. [quote]Nearly half of respondents in a new poll believe the Florida students advocating publicly for gun control reform are “being manipulated by outside groups” – at least in part.[/quote] No shit. Also, is it wrong that I'm starting to get a bit pissed off everyone is trying to velvet wrap the phrase 'gun control' by now calling it 'gun reform'? All I'm getting from it, is that people advocating for disarmament and security theater are too chicken shit to come forward and admit that they want to ban firearms.

[QUOTE=SIRIUS;53193225]Or there'll be another shooting[/QUOTE] And then I'll get to listen to politicians and pundits talk about how it's all my fault and I need to be punished.

[QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;53193311]And I'm willing to say that probably no more then 2% actually have any grasp on gun laws in this country. No shit. Also, is it wrong that I'm starting to get a bit pissed off everyone is trying to velvet wrap the phrase 'gun control' by now calling it 'gun reform'? All I'm getting from it, is that people advocating for disarmament and security theater are too chicken shit to come forward and admit that they want to ban firearms.[/QUOTE] On one hand, I completely agree with you. These students haven't displayed any real knowledge of guns or gun legislation, and personally I think it weakens their case and presentation somewhat. On the other hand, "we don't want to be shot at and killed" is a perfectly valid stance all on its own, and one that you'd have to be silly or malicious to disagree with. I'm not the world's biggest fan of schoolchildren being murdered, so I think that any effort they put out to stopping this from happening again is effort well spent, but I have real concerns. I think they're not doing a good job of making their message heard across party lines, they've drawn a lot of criticism and there's a lot of people poking fun at them which fucks things up pretty badly. But they're just kids. I understand why they aren't being extremely academic about this. I'm not much older than they are, I can understand that if I had experienced something like that I might not be terribly interested in the nitty-gritty of the problem, I'd just want to not get shot at, and I'd take advantage of any platform offered to me. So as much as I wish they'd get their message out in a better way, I can't blame them at all. I'm not sure what my overall point is.

[QUOTE=Mr. Someguy;53193316]And then I'll get to listen to politicians and pundits talk about how it's all my fault and I need to be punished.[/QUOTE] It really sucks how guns seem to have become a intrinsic part of some americans' identities. If it was just some dumb hobby I bet there would be less resistance towards regulation.

[QUOTE=Mr. Someguy;53193316]And then I'll get to listen to politicians and pundits talk about how it's all my fault and I need to be punished.[/QUOTE] And I'll get to listen to gun nuts' victim complexes

[QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;53193311]And I'm willing to say that probably no more then 2% actually have any grasp on gun laws in this country. No shit. Also, is it wrong that I'm starting to get a bit pissed off everyone is trying to velvet wrap the phrase 'gun control' by now calling it 'gun reform'? All I'm getting from it, is that people advocating for disarmament and security theater are too chicken shit to come forward and admit that they want to ban firearms.[/QUOTE] If only 2% understand gun laws that's all the more reason for them to be banned. How can I trust anyone outside that 2% to be responsible gun owners?

[QUOTE=TheDestroyerOfall;53193362]If only 2% understand gun laws that's all the more reason for them to be banned. How can I trust anyone outside that 2% to be responsible gun owners?[/QUOTE] If that scares you, wait until you find out what percentage of people know that cars have a turn signal.

[QUOTE=Mr. Someguy;53193316]And then I'll get to listen to politicians and pundits talk about how it's all my fault and I need to be punished.[/QUOTE] Not trying to be a dick or anything, but this entire comment comes off as profoundly self-absorbed. Like you do realize that people are dying right? Maybe having your feelings hurt by some misinformed politician or pundit isn't all that big a deal compared to actual people dying in a shooting? Maybe you're blowing things out of proportion just a little bit?

[QUOTE=Mr. Someguy;53193316]And then I'll get to listen to politicians and pundits talk about how it's all my fault and I need to be punished.[/QUOTE] How fragile can you be lol

[QUOTE=mcharest;53193386]Like you do realize that people are dying right? Maybe having your feelings hurt by some misinformed politician or pundit isn't all that big a deal compared to actual people dying in a shooting? Maybe you're blowing things out of proportion just a little bit?[/QUOTE] I understand that people are dying, but I do not believe that the political machine actually cares, the entire gun control fight they put forth is just a big political campaign. It's a big spectacle they put on and go "Look at me, I'm doing good!" without having to do anything substantial. If they cared, then why is all the attention put toward assault weapons (a word they made up in the first place), and not the handguns that make up 90% of gun violence? They won't even consider a solution that doesn't attempt to criminalize thousands of law abiding citizens. There are solutions that can put an end to this epidemic of death without infringing on our rights, but they take time and effort. It's much easier to make a big stink about your new assault weapons ban because that has been proven to be so effective in the past. [editline]11th March 2018[/editline] [QUOTE=MisterMooth;53193395]How fragile can you be lol[/QUOTE] When there are people with a worldview so narrow that they boil it down to "you either support banning guns or you support child murder" it's pretty offensive to be thrown into the latter category. Then again I probably shouldn't have posted that right after watching a CNN video where they did exactly that. So I'm sorry, poor discretion on my part.

[QUOTE=Sir_takeslot;53193377]If that scares you, wait until you find out what percentage of people know that cars have a turn signal.[/QUOTE] you have to pass both a written and practice test in most states to drive a vehicle alone. you don't however need a practice test to own a rifle.

[QUOTE=SIRIUS;53193225]Or there'll be another shooting[/QUOTE] Which worryingly seems to becoming more and more likely as time goes on... [editline]11th March 2018[/editline] [QUOTE=Mr. Someguy;53193397]I understand that people are dying, but I do not believe that the political machine actually cares, the entire gun control fight they put forth is just a big political campaign. It's a big spectacle they put on and go "Look at me, I'm doing good!" without having to do anything substantial.[/quote] So to be clear, "without having [I]to do[/I] anything substantial", or "without [I]being able to do[/I] anything substantial because certain groups won't let us"? [quote]When there are people with a worldview so narrow that they boil it down to "you either support banning guns or you support child murder" it's pretty offensive to be thrown into the latter category. Then again I probably shouldn't have posted that right after watching a CNN video where they did exactly that. So I'm sorry, poor discretion on my part.[/QUOTE] It's the point we've gotten to when time and again when this happens, the one side that never seems willing to make any meaningful concession are the gun-owners, lobbyists, and manufacturers. How about if they don't like the "bans/grabs" proposals, [I]they[/I] get together, and [I]they[/I] talk about what [I]they ARE[/I] willing to compromise in order to do anything to solve the problem, whether it's supporting legislation or getting schools to appoint volunteers/employees for security detail, I don't care at this point what's decided on, just try SOMETHING if you've already established that you're not willing to: Ban arms Ban ammo Ban accessories or "accessories" Regulate in any capacity the previous three Raise the age to 21 Wait more than 3 days Require a license Have a registry Impose taxes Mandatory training/military experience Blame lobbyists [I]FIX[/I] healthcare (you may be willing to fix it but hooooboy the number of voting gun owners I've met who seem to think healthcare is a luxury) [I]FIX[/I] education (ditto on education :disgust: ) Then what WOULD you and other gun owners be willing to compromise on?

[QUOTE=Zero-Point;53193425]Which worryingly seems to becoming more and more likely as time goes on...[/QUOTE] Hah, I wish. It's not "more and more likely," it's an absolute inevitability because we haven't stopped having school shootings since the 90s, and we're on the fast track to changing absolutely nothing about the factors that allow them to happen. Every time it happens, we just have a big controversy and "national conversation" that leads to absolutely nothing because nothing can be done in the short window of time where the media finds it profitable to push the issue into the public consciousness. As is tradition.

[QUOTE=Zero-Point;53193425]So to be clear, "without having [I]to do[/I] anything substantial", or "without [I]being able to do[/I] anything substantial because certain groups won't let us"?[/QUOTE] I won't get into the GOP because they're not helpful either and universally worse than Democrats in nearly every other aspect, but I don't see a lot of anyone advocating for solutions that will make us safer without infringing on those who have done nothing wrong. And in the case of the repeated attempts at "assault weapons ban"s, those won't even fulfill the "safer" part, it's just politicking. We've always had guns but the mass shootings only started recently and those are an outlier in regular gun crime, so there must be a way to reduce them without affecting citizens. [QUOTE=Zero-Point;53193425]It's the point we've gotten to when time and again when this happens, the one side that never seems willing to make any meaningful concession are the gun-owners, lobbyists, and manufacturers.[/QUOTE] In my opinion this is due to the fact that our country's history of gun control has always been one sided, take this and take that, there's no concession for gun owners. The last major bill to protect gun owners was back in '86 and it ended up with one of the biggest gun control victories in history with the indefinite closing of the machine gun registry. That combined with the countless tricks employed by the gun control side make gun owners extremely skeptical at best, and refusing to even give the time of day at worst. [QUOTE=Zero-Point;53193425]I don't care at this point what's decided on, just try SOMETHING if you've already established that you're not willing to: Ban arms - No Ban ammo - No Ban accessories or "accessories" - No (why?) Regulate in any capacity the previous three - Too vague to answer Raise the age to 21 - Pointless Wait more than 3 days - Could help lower suicides, but pointless after the first gun purchase Require a license - Skeptical, they've been used for confiscation in some states. Have a registry - See above Impose taxes - We already have these Mandatory training/military experience - See 1 Blame lobbyists - Hm? [I]FIX[/I] healthcare (you may be willing to fix it but hooooboy the number of voting gun owners I've met who seem to think healthcare is a luxury) - See 2 [I]FIX[/I] education (ditto on education :disgust: ) - See above Then what WOULD you and other gun owners be willing to compromise on?[/QUOTE] 1. I would love for firearms safety to become more ingrained into our culture. Training on the safe handling and use of a firearm would be great, and would hopefully reduce the number of accidents caused by carelessness. I'm not sure where you would slot it in, be it a school or community center program, or something the local police run. Preferably it would be free, as safety is a top priority and should be accessible to as many as possible. 2. Healthcare and education need major overhauls in this country, and that's not even enough. The source of most gun crime is economic, the bulk of this is concentrated in (usually minority) poor inner-city neighborhoods. Places like these need a lot of investment, not just in education but in the community. 3. Bonus point, while Blip 2 is something of immense difficulty, a short-term solution is harsher enforcement for straw purchasing: the largest source of illegal guns. Straw purchases should be cracked down on intensively, and the straw purchaser should be tried as an accessory to any and all crimes committed with the weapon, in addition to a felony charge for the straw purchase in the first place. Apology for lazy formatting, it's late and I want to get to bed.

We do not want compromise. We want our cake back, and all of it. At this moment in time, we have played this game for over one hundred years, and we are consistently being told the same line of, "They are not going to take everything! Just this one thing!" and then the next year they want another thing, and another. Gun grabbers never fucking stop. They want complete disarmament, and the removal of the 2nd amendment, and we are sick of it. It's been 100 years of concession without any form of true gain for gun rights activist. Why should we give up more?

[QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;53193471]We do not want compromise. We want our cake back, and all of it. At this moment in time, we have played this game for over one hundred years, and we are consistently being told the same line of, "They are not going to take everything! Just this one thing!" and then the next year they want another thing, and another. Gun grabbers never fucking stop. They want complete disarmament, and the removal of the 2nd amendment, and we are sick of it. It's been 100 years of concession without any form of true gain for gun rights activist. Why should we give up more?[/QUOTE] Oh no, poor poor you, what would you do without guns?!?! Seriously, come on, get off the melodrama and get some perspective on what's really important

[QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;53193471]We do not want compromise. We want our cake back, and all of it. At this moment in time, we have played this game for over one hundred years, and we are consistently being told the same line of, "They are not going to take everything! Just this one thing!" and then the next year they want another thing, and another. Gun grabbers never fucking stop. They want complete disarmament, and the removal of the 2nd amendment, and we are sick of it. It's been 100 years of concession without any form of true gain for gun rights activist. Why should we give up more?[/QUOTE] Because overabundance of guns, and the ease with which one can acquire them, is causing a serious public safety issue? [editline]11th March 2018[/editline] I like guns too, so I understand where you're coming from. I think that if someone likes guns that much, they need to accept the responsibility of jumping through the necessary hoops to keep them out of dangerous hands.

[QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;53193311]And I'm willing to say that probably no more then 2% actually have any grasp on gun laws in this country. No shit. Also, is it wrong that I'm starting to get a bit pissed off everyone is trying to velvet wrap the phrase 'gun control' by now calling it 'gun reform'? All I'm getting from it, is that people advocating for disarmament and security theater are too chicken shit to come forward and admit that they want to ban firearms.[/QUOTE] «•No shit•» they’re manipulated by outside groups? Am I really reading this? Out of all the things, say, having had their classes shot up, that could turn them into gun reformists, you’re going to up and tell me that their parents or bigger brothers put them up to it? I see you, you’re not even trolling, you just sound clinically full of it. Next thing I know you’re going to call them crisis actors. The nerve on some of the more obtuse gun pushers I swear. Can you please try and put yourself in their shoes?

Death sure is a terrifying thing... isn't it? I find it frustrating how people continue to shit on these kids about this situation. A school shooting has just happened in these kids' state and all of them are terrified of shooters erupting into their classrooms to slaughter them like they were sheep being led to a slaughterhouse. And this whole apathetic attitude of "Oh they dont know what they're doing cause they're kids" or "They'll just forget about it until its over" ain't helping. You'd be surprise how much this shit lingers on for people who experienced this situation or heard the experiences of this situation. aka PTSD. I stand in the middle of the road of Gun Control and Gun Ownership. Theres a billion things that need to be discussed and need to be fixed on both aisles of the issue. But shitting on the other side for having a different opinion is completely the wrong way to handle this issue. These kids are still people and they have the same amount of weight towards their opinions like any other individual. They have friends, loved ones, brothers, sisters, even their parents, nieces and nephews that go to these schools every 5 days of the week, and possibly know people who were survivors of this shooting or even other shootings where people didn't attempt to step up and talk about it. They are terrified and they want to speak out. Telling them to shut up and sit down isn't helping, and will only drive them to the dark corner of Apathy that has been plaguing this nation and its Political Climate in this decade.

[QUOTE=Scarabix;53193486]«•No shit•» they’re manipulated by outside groups? Am I really reading this? Out of all the things, say, having had their classes shot up, that could turn them into gun reformists, you’re going to up and tell me that their parents or bigger brothers put them up to it? I see you, you’re not even trolling, you just sound clinically full of it. Next thing I know you’re going to call them crisis actors. The nerve on some of the more obtuse gun pushers I swear. Can you please try and put yourself in their shoes?[/QUOTE] How bout' you put yourself into their shoes? Take a hint: They are being manipulated while emotionally stunned by what has happened. At this moment in time, they are looking for answers and they are getting them from two different groups with two radically different ideas. It's not some bullshit about crisis actors, it's a known psychological thing which occurs when people are looking for answers. You search for someone or something which can give you the answers, and give you something to blame or converge upon. [QUOTE=SIRIUS;53193476]Oh no, poor poor you, what would you do without guns?!?! Seriously, come on, get off the melodrama and get some perspective on what's really important[/QUOTE] The perspective that all current legislation has done nothing in the past, and we are still at a standard/stagnate level in terms of homicides for the last twenty years? We have had several reforms, and nothing thus far has proven too be very effective. Saturation, ease of access in some states and not others, or whatever. The reality is that our issue is not gonna be fixed with security theater.

[QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;53193311]And I'm willing to say that probably no more then 2% actually have any grasp on gun laws in this country. No shit. Also, is it wrong that I'm starting to get a bit pissed off everyone is trying to velvet wrap the phrase 'gun control' by now calling it 'gun reform'? All I'm getting from it, is that people advocating for disarmament and security theater are too chicken shit to come forward and admit that they want to ban firearms.[/QUOTE] You know my first response to this post was "you sound awfully extremist" [QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;53193471]We do not want compromise. We want our cake back, and all of it. At this moment in time, we have played this game for over one hundred years, and we are consistently being told the same line of, "They are not going to take everything! Just this one thing!" and then the next year they want another thing, and another. Gun grabbers never fucking stop. They want complete disarmament, and the removal of the 2nd amendment, and we are sick of it. It's been 100 years of concession without any form of true gain for gun rights activist. Why should we give up more?[/QUOTE] But after this post I think you sound dangerously extremist. You even start using the "we"vs "they" rhetoric. [editline]11th March 2018[/editline] [QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;53193529]How bout' you put yourself into their shoes? Take a hint: They are being manipulated while emotionally stunned by what has happened. At this moment in time, they are looking for answers and they are getting them from two different groups with two radically different ideas. It's not some bullshit about crisis actors, it's a known psychological thing which occurs when people are looking for answers. You search for someone or something which can give you the answers, and give you something to blame or converge upon. [/quote] And how about you start reflecting on yourself and your problems and fears while using that knowledge? Because that's probably better and more positive towards you and your life than starting to think "we vs them"

[QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;53193471]We do not want compromise. We want our cake back, and all of it. At this moment in time, we have played this game for over one hundred years, and we are consistently being told the same line of, "They are not going to take everything! Just this one thing!" and then the next year they want another thing, and another. Gun grabbers never fucking stop. They want complete disarmament, and the removal of the 2nd amendment, and we are sick of it. It's been 100 years of concession without any form of true gain for gun rights activist. Why should we give up more?[/QUOTE] You having a gun isn’t essential to your life or your wellbeing. The rest of the world does just fine without guns (better, even, in basically every metric that matters). It’s seriously time to grow up and join the rest of the world where gun violence is significantly rarer and mass shootings almost never happen due to the simple fact that there are less guns around and they’re much harder to get.

[QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;53193471]We do not want compromise. We want our cake back, and all of it. At this moment in time, we have played this game for over one hundred years, and we are consistently being told the same line of, "They are not going to take everything! Just this one thing!" and then the next year they want another thing, and another. Gun grabbers never fucking stop. They want complete disarmament, and the removal of the 2nd amendment, and we are sick of it. It's been 100 years of concession without any form of true gain for gun rights activist. Why should we give up more?[/QUOTE] It's impossible to not read this with a southern drawl, it's such a stereotype. Gun nuts are the [I]weirdest[/I] people.

I don't think that banning guns is reasonable (or that it'd fix the problem) but I legitimately cannot understand why it is the sole political sticking point for so many people. Why are guns out of all things the most important thing to you politically?

[QUOTE=phygon;53193626]I don't think that banning guns is reasonable (or that it'd fix the problem) but I legitimately cannot understand why it is the sole political sticking point for so many people. Why are guns out of all things the most important thing to you politically?[/QUOTE] NRA/GOP propaganda.

[QUOTE=Mr. Someguy;53193467]I would love for firearms safety to become more ingrained into our culture. Training on the safe handling and use of a firearm would be great, and would hopefully reduce the number of accidents caused by carelessness. I'm not sure where you would slot it in, be it a school or community center program, or something the local police run. Preferably it would be free, as safety is a top priority and should be accessible to as many as possible.[/QUOTE] On that note, why not simply require people to pass a test to determine whether they're able to handle weapons safely to get an obligatory license, just like it works with driving?

[QUOTE=Mr. Someguy;53193467] 1. I would love for firearms safety to become more ingrained into our culture. Training on the safe handling and use of a firearm would be great, and would hopefully reduce the number of accidents caused by carelessness. I'm not sure where you would slot it in, be it a school or community center program, or something the local police run. Preferably it would be free, as safety is a top priority and should be accessible to as many as possible. [/QUOTE] On one hand, I agree. On the other hand, if we were to implement such a thing before making basic money skills/taxes standard curriculum in all schools that would be an absolute travesty.