[QUOTE]The Spanish government’s appointee in Catalonia says the technology infrastructure for voting and counting ballots from the region’s disputed secession vote has been dismantled, making the referendum “absolutely impossible.”
Enric Millo, the highest-ranking Spanish central government official in the region, said Civil Guard agents acting on a judge’s order searched on Saturday the headquarters of CTTI, the Catalan regional center in charge of technology and communications.
Millo says the agents disabled software designed to connect more than 2,300 polling stations and to share results, as well as applications for voting online.
He ruled out any possibility of “an effective referendum, with legal guarantees and binding in the way that the Catalan regional government has promised.”
Catalan officials have vowed to go ahead with Sunday’s vote even though Spain’s Constitutional Court has put the referendum on hold.[/QUOTE]
[url]https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/the-latest-police-give-deadline-to-catalan-school-occupiers/2017/09/30/8adee370-a5c2-11e7-b573-8ec86cdfe1ed_story.html?utm_term=.4416e0d76dd5[/url]
Basically pissing on Democracy.
Edit:
Live thread [url]https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2017/oct/01/catalan-independence-referendum-spain-catalonia-vote-live[/url]
Can you just fuck off with that referendum blocking bullshit?
You don't want to defragmentate Spain into sovereign republics, yet you do everything to make the situation worse by destabilizing the region. How can you call yourself a democratic state, when one of principles of democracy is being destroyed?
Yeah as dumb as independence would be this is an extremely heavy handed response. The referendum isn't legally binding and that aside by what right can they bar people from trying to gain a voice on this? Must it come to violence against the government from angered supporters of independence? Likewise they have no right to demand that Google remove applications giving advice on this.
doing this will only encourage catalonian nationalists and drive more people away from the spanish government tbh
After Brexit, I'm very cautious about any independence movement like this. But when you suppress a democratic movement, you are effectively saying they are better than us.
[QUOTE=Megadave;52731867]After Brexit, I'm very cautious about any independence movement like this. But when you suppress a democratic movement, you are effectively saying they are better than us.[/QUOTE]
They'd (presumably) still be in the EU, so at least in terms of the economy there wouldn't be nearly as much friction as with the UK.
I don't entirely get why the Spanish government thinks that disabling electronics is enough to cancel a vote though.
It's going to be more inconvenient for sure, but you can still hand-count (isn't that done anyway?) and report the results via phone.
Do you want armed uprisings, Spain? Because this is how you get armed uprisings.
You ignore the ballot box and people start wondering if the only thing you'll listen to is the ammo box. And when you do shit like this you confirm their doubts.
The whole supression of Catalonia's identity and forced assimilation into the bulk of Spain has been a thing for decades and even centuries, specially under the fascist regime. The government being so butthurt about Catalonia wanting rights to decide and being super swift at repressing it (while putting obstacles and delaying any investigation about corruption of their government or the royal family) just demostrates their far-right, fascist allignment.
Hell, the party WAS founded by a minister from the Franco dictatorship and the father of the current king was put there by Franco, it's clear as crystal.
"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable."
[QUOTE=Tamschi;52731874]They'd (presumably) still be in the EU, so at least in terms of the economy there wouldn't be nearly as much friction as with the UK.
[/QUOTE]
It's worth mentioning that Spain said it would block Scotland's admittance to the EU presumably to discourage Catalan.
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;52731983]"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable."[/QUOTE]
This is true, and is the reason the U.S. has the second amendment. By supressing a vote you are blocking these peoples right to free speech, essentially forcefully stopping peoples opinion from being heard on paper.
[QUOTE=UserDirk580;52731986]It's worth mentioning that Spain said it would block Scotland's admittance to the EU presumably to discourage Catalan.[/QUOTE]
Rather pointless since Catalonia wants to vote anyway.
this is going to be a problem and I don't think Spain is tackling it good at all, But Guess who's behind the Catalan Independence vote... if you said Russia, then congratulations you are correct.
[URL="http://www.politico.eu/article/russia-catalonia-referendum-fake-news-misinformation/"]http://www.politico.eu/article/russia-catalonia-referendum-fake-news-misinformation/[/URL]
There is more than this with officials Linked to Russia arrested in spain
Spain is literally giving Russia a win in ways they did not expect.
[QUOTE=OmniConsUme;52732224]this is going to be a problem and I don't think Spain is tackling it good at all, But Guess who's behind the Catalan Independence vote... if you said Russia, then congratulations you are correct.
[URL="http://www.politico.eu/article/russia-catalonia-referendum-fake-news-misinformation/"]http://www.politico.eu/article/russia-catalonia-referendum-fake-news-misinformation/[/URL]
There is more than this with officals Linked to Russia arrested in spain[/QUOTE]
I mean the catalans have been pushing for independence for a while, Russia or not they'd still be voting
[QUOTE=OmniConsUme;52732224]this is going to be a problem and I don't think Spain is tackling it good at all, But Guess who's behind the Catalan Independence vote... if you said Russia, then congratulations you are correct.
[URL="http://www.politico.eu/article/russia-catalonia-referendum-fake-news-misinformation/"]http://www.politico.eu/article/russia-catalonia-referendum-fake-news-misinformation/[/URL]
There is more than this with officials Linked to Russia arrested in spain
Spain is literally giving Russia a win in ways they did not expect.[/QUOTE]
Catalonia have been pressing this for so long that any help Russia gives them is just giving them confidence in doing it, not giving them the idea to do it.
Hell, it may even be welcomed by a few people there.
[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;52732229]I mean the catalans have been pushing for independence for a while, Russia or not they'd still be voting[/QUOTE]
And Spain seems to be doing dumb shit and to pushing this situation to Russia's Goals in ways they probably not imagined.
[editline]30th September 2017[/editline]
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;52732246]Catalonia have been pressing this for so long that any help Russia gives them is just giving them confidence in doing it, not giving them the idea to do it.
Hell, it may even be welcomed by a few people there.[/QUOTE]
The fact that Spain is not doing things democratically is they are also extremely paranoid for a Catalonia win, they are also giving Russia another win too.
[QUOTE=Jorori;52731896]The whole supression of Catalonia's identity and forced assimilation into the bulk of Spain has been a thing for decades and even centuries, specially under the fascist regime. The government being so butthurt about Catalonia wanting rights to decide and being super swift at repressing it (while putting obstacles and delaying any investigation about corruption of their government or the royal family) just demostrates their far-right, fascist allignment.
Hell, the party WAS founded by a minister from the Franco dictatorship and the father of the current king was put there by Franco, it's clear as crystal.[/QUOTE]
Spain has been a pissbaby for centuries. Especially towards Portugal.
In general, something needs to teach Spain a lesson in humility and reform.
[QUOTE=UserDirk580;52731986]It's worth mentioning that Spain said it would block Scotland's admittance to the EU presumably to discourage Catalan.[/QUOTE]
I wonder if there's some official regulation for when countries [I]inside[/I] the EU split and/or change yet.
If they keep all regulations in place and conform to fees and such, I don't really see why they should default to being a non-member (possible diplomatic issues aside, but even that shouldn't be big enough a reason).
With all this push for independence referendums it will only serve to weaken western states, yet doing this and pissing on democracy will only worsen the whole situation.
How can people in power be so blind to the consequences.
[QUOTE=Megadave;52731867]After Brexit, I'm very cautious about any independence movement like this. But when you suppress a democratic movement, you are effectively saying they are better than us.[/QUOTE]
Brexit was really dumb because the EU is mostly beneficial to the UK, and the actually bad policies (Euro) were avoided by the UK. So it basically is just them punching themselves in the foot.
Catalonia is pretty different though, to my knowledge, the place has a distinct identity that the Spanish government has tried to suppress for centuries, and they tend to vote very differently from the rest of Spain, which I think is a pretty good cause for independence. I would really only have concerns if they weren't able/willing to get into the EU.
Yeah Spain fuck your antidemocratic bullshit.
Not that it matters that the current anti-independence government was voted democratically (at least in theory, but that's another can of worms).
Not that it matters that the constitution that forbids such a vote was approved by 91% of Spain, and in fact, 91% of Barcelona, back then.
Not that it matters that, if they wanted to have a legal and even binding referendum, they could have a political party with such an idea to win the next national elections. [B][I]Democratically[/I][/B]. And after that, pass a constit. modification to both Senate and Congress to approve with a 3/5 agree vote.[B][I]Democractically.[/I][/B] This isn't even that hard of an option! Podemos won in Barcelona and was the third most voted, and has been pushing for a referendum. Now you just need for him to get majority in ~2020. (Which I find very hard to believe 'cause he's been doing dumb shit for far too long, and I wonder if he'll still be one of the four most voted next time, but can of worms again.)
Oh, and the non-legally-binding part? [URL="http://www.elnacional.cat/es/politica/puigdemont-frankfurter-allgemeine-por-descontado-referendum-vinculante_197022_102.html"]Scratch that out, FYI[/URL]. Right from the president of the Generalitat, the guy behind all this [I](this time)[/I].
And yes, Spain is being heavy handed with this. Because, once again, it's been declared illegal. And they're supposed to stop illegal things from happening (corruption aside, can of worms). Spaniards want that, people against independence in Catalonia want that. They shouldn't just deal with it and go vote because said vote isn't allowed to be in the first place.
[QUOTE=Jorori;52731896]The whole supression of Catalonia's identity and forced assimilation into the bulk of Spain has been a thing for decades and even centuries, specially under the fascist regime. The government being so butthurt about Catalonia wanting rights to decide and being super swift at repressing it (while putting obstacles and delaying any investigation about corruption of their government or the royal family) just demostrates their far-right, fascist allignment.
Hell, the party WAS founded by a minister from the Franco dictatorship and the father of the current king was put there by Franco, it's clear as crystal.[/QUOTE]
No shit welcome to S. XVIII, spanish history has had a lot of wars and dumb decisions forever (like most places tbh), but it's of no use pointing fingers and thinking of what ifs. Maybe Aragon would be a successful independent state now, or maybe it would've been taken by France, or another Portugal. Maybe it would be debtless, or the next entry of drugs into EU, or... We can do this all day.
Say what you want about Franco and PP, but it's still getting a majority of votes. Against my (and sounds like your) wishes. That's a concern with the Spanish society, unfortunately.
[QUOTE=Coment;52732960]Yeah Spain fuck your antidemocratic bullshit.
Not that it matters that the current anti-independence government was voted democratically (at least in theory, but that's another can of worms).[/quote]
other parts of the iberian peninsula shouldn't have a say in the affairs of catalonia. if they want independence they should receive it
[quote]Not that it matters that, if they wanted to have a legal and even binding referendum, they could have a political party with such an idea to win the next national elections. [B][I]Democratically[/I][/B]. And after that, pass a constit. modification to both Senate and Congress to approve with a 3/5 agree vote.[B][I]Democractically.[/I][/B][/quote]
except this requires the rest of the country to vote on it. why should they vote to let catalonia go?
[quote]Because, once again, it's been declared illegal. And they're supposed to stop illegal things from happening (corruption aside, can of worms). Spaniards want that, people against independence in Catalonia want that. They shouldn't just deal with it and go vote because said vote isn't allowed to be in the first place.[/QUOTE]
who cares what the spanish want? what's important is what the people of catalonia want
like, i was onboard with the whole "this is illegal" aspect to the argument, but i'm not buying that bullshit anymore when the spanish government is actively trying to suppress the independence movement
The fact is the voting is illegal and anti-costitutional, if they want to vote they need to go trough due process. All their propaganda is based on populist stuff(like saying that they give around 20% of spain G.D.P. which is more around 5%, or their saying that they will still be staying in the E.U. when they clearly would be a different state and so out of the Union)or going back to more recents years(such as Franco) saying that they were repressed when their community was involved in the civil war and lost it's baffing.Of course Franco repressed the faction that was quite the opposite of his, seeing as they tried a communist revolution. All they can hang on is the Self-Determination principle that even by International standards is recognized only when there is a military occupation, server violations of human rights or a colonial domination. Spain is heavy handed in this because it's illegal and i can see their point of view, seeing that Catalonia gained much in flexibility in the spanish state. This situation has been handled pooly by both sides, in my opinion. Autonomy would have been better for Catalonia and Spain could have given some ground, making both parties happy.
What angers me the most is that this is a perfect excuse for some people to wave the Spanish flag as a symbol of protest (I guess). The sense of patriotism here is fucked up, in some cases being close to fascism. Today, to protest against the vote, people in Madrid have come out singing the anthem used during the dictatorship, wearing the flag.
I am totally in favor of forbidding an ilegal vote, but I feel that this is not the right way to do it. And besides, the 'illegal vote' 'against the constitution' card is being used now to turn attention against catalonia, but when the current government goes ahead and breaks every fucking law thru corruption and withdrawal of public funds, they turn their sights away.
I guess the somewhat positive thing that I see out of this (a lot of people will desagree) is that at least a part of Spain is finally acting, and taking action for what they want.
[QUOTE=Jorori;52731896]Hell, the party WAS founded by a minister from the Franco dictatorship and the father of the current king was put there by Franco, it's clear as crystal.[/QUOTE]
Didn't the previous King also assist in the transition of Spain from a fascist dictatorship to a democratic government, though? Just to say.
[QUOTE=OmniConsUme;52732247]And Spain seems to be doing dumb shit and to pushing this situation to Russia's Goals in ways they probably not imagined.
The fact that Spain is not doing things democratically is they are also extremely paranoid for a Catalonia win, they are also giving Russia another win too.[/QUOTE]
You know, we had to deal with 40 years of fascism because of the Soviet Union suddenly turning into a boogeyman, and the fascist cockroach who lead the uprising because tradition and privileges was a good thing to have around.
But I guess it is easy to have a foreign enemy to blame for everything.
By the way, the old king "helped" by basically going "if you behave I'll give you democracy". That transition was basically some aesthetical retouches, because the inner workings of the state didn't change. Same people in the institutions.
Hell, we had last year a judge, who was already a member of the police admin back in the Franco days, send some PUPPETEERS to prison because they parodied terrorists in their spectacle.
Somebody gather the Dragon Balls and revive Castelao. He is the only hope the penninsula ever had.
[video]https://twitter.com/Butterfly_Reb/status/914417768329564160[/video]
[video]https://twitter.com/itsluisagibson/status/914419255998894082[/video]
[video]https://twitter.com/esheikh_/status/914425051725926400[/video]
[video]https://twitter.com/martafree8/status/914419518721708032[/video]
some scenes from around catalonia today, looks pretty insane
Are sanctions against Spain gonna be a thing or am I being too optimistic?
[QUOTE=Idzo;52734753]Are sanctions against Spain gonna be a thing or am I being too optimistic?[/QUOTE]
Why is everyone so upset with the spanish government when all it's doing is dismantling an illegal referendum, which was outlawed because our democratically voted in constitution explicitly forbids such a procedure, while giving ways to modify the constitution to suit future needs, as Coment pointed out?
In a country based in the rule of law, you can't just say "well, screw the supreme piece of legislation that binds and rules our nation, I'm gonna have it my own way".
You try to convince the rest of the population that this is on their best interests, with more or less success, like Podemos is doing.
Thing is, particularistic nationalisms such as the Catalonian and Vasque ones (albeit with differences) are extremely focused on their ethnic voters pool, for lack of a better term, and not without reason, since that's the whole point of their existence, and as such disregard the rest of the electorate in their rhetoric, something for which they pay dearly in terms of the popularity of their views in the rest of Spain.
Consequently, it will take them a long time before Spain accepts their views and is willing to change the constitution to fit their demands (and mind you, that happens in a completely democratic fashion by voting parties favorable to that proposition, or alternatively by the members of said parties changing their views on the matter as a result of being pressured by their voters to do that).
It is one thing when protesters show up prepared for a fight, but these videos looks like the Spanish government sent in riot police to break up a town hall debate because of all the regular looking innocent people.
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