‘Brexit’ Fuels Feeling in Scotland That Time Is Right for Independence - Polidicks

[URL="https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/14/world/europe/scotland-uk-independence-referendum.html?_r=0"]https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/14/world/europe/scotland-uk-independence-referendum.html?_r=0[/URL] [QUOTE]LONDON — Scotland’s nationalists wasted no time: Just minutes after the country’s leader, Nicola Sturgeon, called on Monday for a new independence referendum, a website went live asking people to show their support on Twitter and donate to the campaign. By Tuesday morning, 204,345 pounds, or about $249,000 — more than a fifth of the £1 million target — had been raised; pro-independence banners in Scotland’s blue-and-white colors had gone up across the country; and celebrities were offering support, including the actor Alan Cumming, who shared a Twitter post by Ms. Sturgeon, with the comment, “It’s showtime!” It was an early glimpse of the Scottish nationalists’ formidable campaign machine, evidently little diminished since the last referendum, in 2014. Support for independence rose from about 27 percent at the beginning of that campaign to 45 percent at the final count. Since then, opinion polls suggest that support for independence has edged up again, leaving Scots split almost evenly. Nationalists seem convinced that they can win this time, thanks to Britain’s vote to leave the European Union, known as “Brexit.” And unlike Prime Minister Theresa May’s government in London, which is already stretched by the monumental task of negotiating a divorce settlement with 27 other European governments, Ms. Sturgeon’s troops are ready: Party membership quadrupled after the last referendum and increased further after the decision to quit the European Union.[/QUOTE] [URL="https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/mar/14/scottish-independence-referendum-brexit-readers"]https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/mar/14/scottish-independence-referendum-brexit-readers[/URL] [QUOTE]Nicola Sturgeon announced yesterday that she would act to ensure Scotland had a new independence referendum at the end of the Brexit process, before Theresa May stepped in to reject the first minister’s timetable, accusing the SNP leader of “tunnel vision”. We asked readers how their voting intention in a new referendum would be influenced by Brexit, or other issues. The majority of respondents to our callout were supporters of Scottish independence in both 2014 and now. Here, though, we look at the views of people who have changed their minds.[/QUOTE] So begins fall of United Kingdom/Great Britain (As depends what people call the location)

[QUOTE=ChadMcGoatMan;51959168]So begins fall of United Kingdom[/QUOTE] The fall of Great Britain not of the United Kingdom. While many use the names interchangeably the full name is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Great Britain is the union of England, Scotland and Wales, though generally just the union of Scotland with the Kingdom of England in 1707 (Wales had already been conquered at the time.) Honestly though May should consider negotiating single-market access for Scotland, especially as their fishing industry is heavily regulated by the EU.

[QUOTE]Further complicating matters, there is no guarantee that an independent Scotland would be allowed to join the European Union. Spain, wary of separatist movements in Catalonia and the Basque region getting a lift from such a precedent, appears likely to try to block that move. Already, Spanish officials quoted in the Scottish news media have said that Scotland would have to join the “back of the queue” for membership talks.[/QUOTE] I thought Spain wasn't going to do this now. [QUOTE]Ms. Black, who has said that she may not run for re-election to the British Parliament because she found it “depressing,” said she was angered by the idea “that you should vote against independence because the U.K. economy will suffer after Brexit.” These are fast-moving times and “with independence comes control,” she said. “Would you not rather know that when something happens you are able to respond instead of being at the mercy of a government you didn’t vote for?”[/QUOTE] Hmm. Arguments used against Brexit now in favour of independence. Scotland will see itself fucked for a few years as it tries to negotiate terms for joiniing the EU by itself, the whole UK will be hit too.

differences between a break away spanish state and scottland is that one has a government that is in the EU to stop that, the other is on the way out the door. the EU was basically the number one reason for the stay campaign which ironically flipped leave once it came to brexit

Why Is It Spelt Like This Please Stop but apart from that, oh : (

[QUOTE=AutismoPiggo;51959382]Why Is It Spelt Like This Please Stop but apart from that, oh : ([/QUOTE] Would blame Cameron for all this.

This is honestly so depressing.

I know a good few Scots who voted remain but are now voting leave because of Brexit and the attitude of some of the remain voters following the referendum.

Time for donating money to get Mel Gibson to Scotland

[QUOTE=ViralHatred;51959241]The fall of Great Britain not of the United Kingdom. While many use the names interchangeably the full name is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Great Britain is the union of England, Scotland and Wales, though generally just the union of Scotland with the Kingdom of England in 1707 (Wales had already been conquered at the time.) Honestly though May should consider negotiating single-market access for Scotland, especially as their fishing industry is heavily regulated by the EU.[/QUOTE] According to Wikipedia, Great Britain simply refers to the main island that England, Wales and Scotland are on. The political entity, which is what is falling apart here, is the United Kingdom. Great Britain isn't splitting apart, it's not like the island is separating. Your use of Great Britain would have been correct in 1707-1801, but we then changed to being the UK.

[QUOTE]“Scotland hasn’t voted Conservative in decades and yet has been ruled by a Conservative government for most of that time,” said Mhairi Black, a Scottish National Party lawmaker in the British Parliament. “We voted against Brexit and people are feeling the injustice of it.”[/QUOTE] Out of all of them, this argument is the one that annoys me the most. What makes Scotland so special in the UK, so what if you didn't get the government you voted for? Part of a democracy is being ruled by people who you didn't vote for.

[QUOTE=The mouse;51959658]Out of all of them, this argument is the one that annoys me the most. What makes Scotland so special in the UK, so what if you didn't get the government you voted for? Part of a democracy is being ruled by people who you didn't vote for.[/QUOTE] weren't you arguing a while back against EU officials you didn't vote for?

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;51959703]weren't you arguing a while back against EU officials you didn't vote for?[/QUOTE] The difference being that the UK is a democracy, the EU isn't. The executive body the Commission, isn't elected.

[QUOTE=The mouse;51959658]Out of all of them, this argument is the one that annoys me the most. What makes Scotland so special in the UK, so what if you didn't get the government you voted for? Part of a democracy is being ruled by people who you didn't vote for.[/QUOTE] A government that doesn't listen and lies to its people, that cuts social services and demands raises for taxes, all to fuel their own individualistic agendas and goals, has no place in a democracy.

[QUOTE=GlebGuy;51959780]A government that doesn't listen and lies to its people, that cuts social services and demands raises for taxes, all to fuel their own individualistic agendas and goals, has no place in a democracy.[/QUOTE] A government people voted for freely belongs in a democracy. As soon as you start drawing lines as to what politics have or haven't got a place in a democracy, that's where authoritarianism starts.

[QUOTE=The mouse;51959788]A government people vote for freely is a democracy. As soon as you start drawing lines as to what has or hasn't got a place in a democracy, that's where authoritarianism starts.[/QUOTE] Is it democratic to vote for the party that lied to you and manipulated everything, just to later go back or break their promises? To vote for Brexit for example?

[QUOTE=Mabus;51959560]I know a good few Scots who voted remain but are now voting leave because of Brexit and the attitude of some of the remain voters following the referendum.[/QUOTE] i was recently on holiday in Tenerife and spent an afternoon with my Mrs drinking with some scottish couples we had just met, I am not stereotyping the Scots because like us they enjoyed a good drink. We spent a good few hours with them because they were good fun and as you would expect we ended up talking about Brexit and Independence. None of them were convinced that Independence would be advantageous and all of them understood the sentiment of why people voted for the Brexit. This like your tale, proves absolutely fuck all though either way. [editline]14th March 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=GlebGuy;51959797]Is it democratic to vote for the party that lied to you and manipulated everything, just to later go back or break their promises? To vote for Brexit for example?[/QUOTE] no less democratic than voting for project fear.

[QUOTE=GlebGuy;51959797]Is it democratic to vote for the party that lied to you and manipulated everything, just to later go back or break their promises? To vote for Brexit for example?[/QUOTE] Yes it is completely, because if you don't like it you can just not vote for them the next time around. People are rational enough to make informed decisions for themselves, if they make a decision harmful to their own wellbeing, that's just the consequence of their ability to choose.

[QUOTE=MissZoey;51959608]According to Wikipedia, Great Britain simply refers to the main island that England, Wales and Scotland are on. The political entity, which is what is falling apart here, is the United Kingdom. Great Britain isn't splitting apart, it's not like the island is separating. Your use of Great Britain would have been correct in 1707-1801, but we then changed to being the UK.[/QUOTE] No the island is Britain, or as a whole the British Isles. Great Britain is the collective political union of England, Wales, Scotland and the smaller islands off our coasts. The United Kingdom is Great Britain and Northern Ireland. For example should the Irish ever have reunification we would simply become Great Britain again. That is why our country code is GB and in most international sports we are referred to as Great Britain.

[QUOTE=GlebGuy;51959780]A government that doesn't listen and lies to its people, that cuts social services and demands raises for taxes, all to fuel their own individualistic agendas and goals, has no place in a democracy.[/QUOTE] is this really any different to any government, you would be hard pushed to say otherwise.

At this point I just can't blame Scotland for leaving. I still object to it, but given how we've basically given them no reason to stick around after all the lies, all I can do is hope that Brexit is somehow halted before we actually do leave the EU

[QUOTE=The mouse;51959658]Out of all of them, this argument is the one that annoys me the most. What makes Scotland so special in the UK, so what if you didn't get the government you voted for? Part of a democracy is being ruled by people who you didn't vote for.[/QUOTE] Yeah the Scottish people don't deserve to be represented fairly and proportionally. They should be happy having their votes not matter.

[QUOTE=The mouse;51959775]The difference being that the UK is a democracy, the EU isn't. The executive body the Commission, isn't elected.[/QUOTE] right, but the legislative body, is, and the legislative body votes on whether or not to accept the executive body how much of the UK executive - prime minister and cabinet do you elect to perform those roles?

[QUOTE=UK Bohemian;51959821]is this really any different to any government, you would be hard pushed to say otherwise.[/QUOTE] Just because everyone does it doesn't mean it's okay. [QUOTE=The mouse;51959816]Yes it is completely, because if you don't like it you can just not vote for them the next time around. People are rational enough to make informed decisions for themselves, if they make a decision harmful to their own wellbeing, that's just the consequence of their ability to choose.[/QUOTE] Not for Brexit. At least, not for years after it's done.

[QUOTE=ViralHatred;51959817]No the island is Britain, or as a whole the British Isles. Great Britain is the collective political union of England, Wales, Scotland and the smaller islands off our coasts. The United Kingdom is Great Britain and Northern Ireland. For example should the Irish ever have reunification we would simply become Great Britain again. That is why our country code is GB and in most international sports we are referred to as Great Britain.[/QUOTE] no, the island is Great Britain [URL]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Britain[/URL] [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom[/url] britain is the shortening, the United Kingdom is the political union

I think this is one of those prices to pay for having the Brexit, not only will staying in the EU probably damage trust in democracy but leaving will potentially leave Scotland no choice but to break off, probably for the best considering they're going to get a better sight of a deal than if they stay in and let the conservatives who still haven't decided what they want to do with the Brexit, yet make all the deals for them. They're doing an awful job and no one can really be happy with unelected Theresa May, I'd take Cameron over her any day but it's probably going to be a much longer time with the conservatives once Scotland leaves because suddenly the country becomes much more conservative without Scotland inside too.

[QUOTE=Scot;51959835]Yeah the Scottish people don't deserve to be represented fairly and proportionally. They should be happy having their votes not matter.[/QUOTE] Actually by comparison to the rest of the UK, Scotland is overrepresented in Parliament. Scotland has 56 constituencies, Yorkshire despite having a population of a similar size has 49, without a devolved administration. But that's besides the point, the point is that why is Scotland not being represented in government any different from any other part of the UK not being represented in government? What makes them so special? It doesn't help that they vote for a party which by definition cannot be in the government of the UK. [QUOTE=Cloak Raider;51959841]right, but the legislative body, is, and the legislative body votes on whether or not to accept the executive body how much of the UK executive - prime minister and cabinet do you elect to perform those roles?[/QUOTE] Except that the European Parliament rarely makes any attempt to reach out to it's electorate (atleast in the UK) and it's elections tend to focus around national issues than European ones. Therefore it's legitimacy is specious and it's ability to hold the commission to account is questionable when they both share the same goals.

The Scots should be allowed to leave if they want to. The should not have their vote held up by that May character. After all, isnt that a denial of democracy and self determination? Im fairly sure thats what people say Brexit was about. Apparently. Edit: it is a fecking spectacular own goal to deny a referendum on the issue now while claiming Brexit is about sovernty and getting power back from a so called "unelected commission". Well what is your House of Lords so?

[QUOTE=The mouse;51959891]Except that the European Parliament rarely makes any attempt to reach out to it's electorate (atleast in the UK) and it's elections tend to focus around national issues than European ones. Therefore it's legitimacy is specious and it's ability to hold the commission to account is questionable when they both share the same goals.[/QUOTE] no that's bollocks, the parliament has previously forced a commission to dissolve, and the parliament is independently elected from all nations in the EU, so they don't "share the same goals" this is patently untrue considering a large number of EU representatives are euroceptics, do they share the same goals as the commission? considering most of the representatives the UK elected in the last EU election were from UKIP, the idea that they share the same goals is fucking [I]laughable[/I]

[QUOTE=Chopstick;51959867]I think this is one of those prices to pay for having the Brexit, not only will staying in the EU probably damage trust in democracy but leaving will potentially leave Scotland no choice but to break off, probably for the best considering they're going to get a better sight of a deal than if they stay in and let the conservatives who still haven't decided what they want to do with the Brexit yet make all the deals for them. They're doing an awful job and no one can really be happy with unelected Theresa May, I'd take Cameron over her any day but it's probably going to be a much longer time with the conservatives once Scotland leaves because suddenly the country becomes much more conservative without Scotland inside too.[/QUOTE] Yea make future unavoidable poitically divide United Kingdom become Dominant-party system for next decades until next Generation will hopely replaced them, But yet again if Wales and Northern Ireland start realized to follow Ireland and Scotland footsteps. Well United Kingdom will be no more and back as only England with her Crown dependencies.