Really great talk, really hit the nail on the head.
To be perfectly honest some jokes that can be considered sexist/racist can be funny and aren't meant to be harmful, that said you need to be careful who you make those kinda jokes to.
[QUOTE=isnipeu;40556707]To be perfectly honest some jokes that can be considered sexist/racist can be funny and aren't meant to be harmful, that said you need to be careful who you make those kinda jokes to.[/QUOTE]
Trololo stay in the kitchen women
very good talk
not gonna go anywhere on fp though (well who knows!!)
Sometimes I like to think that somewhere in this Gigantic world in which I tread.
There is a small hole, Just big enough for me. where no one makes me feel like a sexist asshole.
it appears that this dream is just in fact a dream.
I yearn For a more sweeter time where people did not need to tell others not to beat or rape women. Not because some one told them not to, But because it is the right thing to do.
I yearn for a time where I could play video games/smoke and drink without the outside world impeding into my medium of relaxation.
I yearn for a time less angry.
Asking if the girl was drinking with a bunch of strangers isn't looking for a cause of the rape, therefore it's not blaming anyone. The world is a dangerous place, full of people who'll hurt you for their own benefit, you have to be careful and aware of the danger. It's not your fault if some other person steals shit from your house, but you have to be aware that people do that and lock the door. Although yes, there are people who'd say that a skimpy dress is a valid justification for rape, so women should wear burkas. But that's a different logic altogether. A stupid one too. It basically says "men have no control over their actions, they are animals driven purely by instinct". So if a guy uses that logic he's basically belittles men.
The rant about "victim blaming" was unnecessary and kinda beside the point, also a giant generalization.
Saying that attacking feminists is just trying to keep the current system in place and trying to shut up feminists is again generalization. Yeah there are people who'll attack every feminist. But the group that gets called names most of the time is the most extreme one, and as it happens, most vocal one, so that's what you'll see on the news. Those who call themselves feminists but want to oppress men, will be called feminazis by most (which is misleading because that's not even feminism). Those feminists that make sense will be insulted only by those who really are sexist, and it's gonna be a much smaller group.
There are offensive jokes that don't need any intervention because the person saying/laughing at it, will not act on it. What happens when you laugh at your own gender/sexuality/race/nationality? It's okay? Doesn't that mean you are oppressing someone or that you will oppress someone? It's one thing to laugh at stereotypes and another to act on them.
Everything else I agree with.
Also I like the approach where people involved in domestic violence are genderless.
[QUOTE=isnipeu;40556707]To be perfectly honest some jokes that can be considered sexist/racist can be funny and aren't meant to be harmful, that said you need to be careful who you make those kinda jokes to.[/QUOTE]
[url]http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/11/071106083038.htm[/url]
it's not just about offending people.
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;40558716]burkas[/QUOTE]
Another point to clothing:
Many people claim that women who dress in an explicit manner are "asking for it", but in reality, it's a cultural matter. How many cases per year are there of reported and unreported sexual abuse in, say, Saudi Arabia, even though it is a country which enforces the burka by law?
Isn't TEDx not really TED? They got Anita Sarkessian to talk about oppression for god sake.
[QUOTE=SuddenImpact;40558928]Isn't TEDx not really TED? They got Anita Sarkessian to talk about oppression for god sake.[/QUOTE]
Pretty much anyone can talk at TEDx
[QUOTE=sp00ks;40558847][url]http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/11/071106083038.htm[/url]
it's not just about offending people.[/QUOTE]
Men who are already sexist would behave more sexist after listening to sexist jokes than after listening to neutral jokes? Did I read this correctly? Not really a surprise there?
The problem still lies in the man being already sexist, not in the "releaser".
[QUOTE=BearsAteMyCat;40558920]Another point to clothing:
Many people claim that women who dress in an explicit manner are "asking for it", but in reality, it's a cultural matter. How many cases per year are there of reported and unreported sexual abuse in, say, Saudi Arabia, even though it is a country which enforces the burka by law?[/QUOTE]
Is she wearing revealing clothes? Someone will think she's a slut and is asking for it.
Is she wearing modest, neat clothes? Someone will interpret that as a sign that she's shy and non-confrontational, and therefore a good target because she'll be easier to threaten and manipulate, and less likely to make a fuss.
Is she wearing frumpy, unattractive clothes? Someone will see this as a sign that she's less sexually experienced, and therefore easier to manipulate. They will assume that people will be less likely to believe her, and she will worry that people won't believe her.
Is she dressed in mannish clothes? Someone will see her as a freak and think that she needs to be put in her place, and will think that no one will believe her if she reports it.
Is she dressed in women's religious garments that cover most of her body? Someone will reduce her entire existence to her gender, someone will see her as a member of a group they hate and that they know values chastity, and see sexual assault as a way to demean her.
Is she wearing a power-suit? Someone's going to get off on the idea of exerting power over her.
As long as people can tell your gender, there will be a predator who thinks that how you express your gender is a sign that you'd make a good victim.
educating people about what hold terms such as gender, race & sexuality is a really good way to explain privilege. very smart talk
God both sides of this fucking argument are demeaning to either sex.
How is this shit going to help anybody?
[QUOTE=moop900;40559401]God both sides of this fucking argument are demeaning to either sex.
How is this shit going to help anybody?[/QUOTE]
what
[editline]7th May 2013[/editline]
i'm sorry but explain how it is demeaning to either sex
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;40558716]Asking if the girl was drinking with a bunch of strangers isn't looking for a cause of the rape, therefore it's not blaming anyone. The world is a dangerous place, full of people who'll hurt you for their own benefit, you have to be careful and aware of the danger. It's not your fault if some other person steals shit from your house, but you have to be aware that people do that and lock the door. Although yes, there are people who'd say that a skimpy dress is a valid justification for rape, so women should wear burkas. But that's a different logic altogether. A stupid one too. It basically says "men have no control over their actions, they are animals driven purely by instinct". So if a guy uses that logic he's basically belittles men.
The rant about "victim blaming" was unnecessary and kinda beside the point, also a giant generalization.
Saying that attacking feminists is just trying to keep the current system in place and trying to shut up feminists is again generalization. Yeah there are people who'll attack every feminist. But the group that gets called names most of the time is the most extreme one, and as it happens, most vocal one, so that's what you'll see on the news. Those who call themselves feminists but want to oppress men, will be called feminazis by most (which is misleading because that's not even feminism). Those feminists that make sense will be insulted only by those who really are sexist, and it's gonna be a much smaller group.
There are offensive jokes that don't need any intervention because the person saying/laughing at it, will not act on it. What happens when you laugh at your own gender/sexuality/race/nationality? It's okay? Doesn't that mean you are oppressing someone or that you will oppress someone? It's one thing to laugh at stereotypes and another to act on them.
Everything else I agree with.
Also I like the approach where people involved in domestic violence are genderless.[/QUOTE]
um there's a difference between taking advantage of a drunk girl and breaking into someone's house
[QUOTE=johnsten;40559894]um there's a difference between taking advantage of a drunk girl and breaking into someone's house[/QUOTE]
Not in what's relevant to my point.
Getting wasted with strangers is equal to not locking your door. It's not taking enough precautions or outright ignoring danger. You know there are people who would steal your shit if they saw an opportunity, so you take precautions and lock your door. You certainly know there are guys who would take advantage of a drunk girl, so why ignore the danger? Take precautions. I'm a guy and I don't get seriously drunk with people I don't know, or in a place that I cannot control.
Edit: I seriously don't understand you people. You complain all the time how horrible it is that drunk women are taken advantage of, so you must be fucking aware that there are men who just wait for the opportunity. Why in the blue hell do you think it's reasonable to create such opportunity?
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;40558959]Men who are already sexist would behave more sexist after listening to sexist jokes than after listening to neutral jokes? Did I read this correctly? Not really a surprise there?
The problem still lies in the man being already sexist, not in the "releaser".[/QUOTE]
and telling sexist "jokes" makes those people think their behaviour is ok.
[QUOTE=sp00ks;40560757]and telling sexist "jokes" makes those people think their behaviour is ok.[/QUOTE]
But the problem lies in that person. Not in the "joke". If we would have a study showing that cofee makes sociopaths more likely hurt other people, would you ban cofee, that by itself is harmless, or would you address the real source of the problem? Their behavior and the reason why they are like that?
cis scum, didn't even recognize us asexuals
[QUOTE=moop900;40558330]Sometimes I like to think that somewhere in this Gigantic world in which I tread.
There is a small hole, Just big enough for me. where no one makes me feel like a sexist asshole.
it appears that this dream is just in fact a dream.
I yearn For a more sweeter time where people did not need to tell others not to beat or rape women. Not because some one told them not to, But because it is the right thing to do.
I yearn for a time where I could play video games/smoke and drink without the outside world impeding into my medium of relaxation.
I yearn for a time less angry.[/QUOTE]
fucking what? so you're angry that people have challenged a status quo that might not be exactly fair, I suppose you're just in denial about how your hobby might not be as friendly as universal as you think
Goddamn max, why are you so obsessed with feminism? If I had a nickel for every time you posted about it I would have enough to buy all the baguettes in France.
[QUOTE=DinoJesus;40561982]Goddamn max, why are you so obsessed with feminism? If I had a nickel for every time you posted about it I would have enough to buy all the baguettes in France.[/QUOTE]
nothing wrong about it tho is there? i mean you surely have other political/or whatever interests too that you like to discuss about
and haha funny french stereotype never gets old
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;40560834]But the problem lies in that person. Not in the "joke". If we would have a study showing that cofee makes sociopaths more likely hurt other people, would you ban cofee, that by itself is harmless, or would you address the real source of the problem? Their behavior and the reason why they are like that?[/QUOTE]
I'm not saying we should ban sexist "humour".
One of the sources of the problem is people thinking that their behaviour is okay.
[QUOTE=sp00ks;40562310]I'm not saying we should ban sexist "humour".
One of the sources of the problem is people thinking that their behaviour is okay.[/QUOTE]
But the joke doesn't make the guy think that the behavior is okay, he already does, it's just one of the things that "release" his behavior. The "joke" itself isn't a problem. The problem exist in the guy's head whether or not the "joke" is told.
[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;40559118]Is she wearing revealing clothes? Someone will think she's a slut and is asking for it.
Is she wearing modest, neat clothes? Someone will interpret that as a sign that she's shy and non-confrontational, and therefore a good target because she'll be easier to threaten and manipulate, and less likely to make a fuss.
Is she wearing frumpy, unattractive clothes? Someone will see this as a sign that she's less sexually experienced, and therefore easier to manipulate. They will assume that people will be less likely to believe her, and she will worry that people won't believe her.
Is she dressed in mannish clothes? Someone will see her as a freak and think that she needs to be put in her place, and will think that no one will believe her if she reports it.
Is she dressed in women's religious garments that cover most of her body? Someone will reduce her entire existence to her gender, someone will see her as a member of a group they hate and that they know values chastity, and see sexual assault as a way to demean her.
Is she wearing a power-suit? Someone's going to get off on the idea of exerting power over her.
As long as people can tell your gender, there will be a predator who thinks that how you express your gender is a sign that you'd make a good victim.[/QUOTE]
Judging wont go anywhere ever, you are making it seem far worse than it really is.
[QUOTE=DinoJesus;40561982]Goddamn max, why are you so obsessed with feminism? If I had a nickel for every time you posted about it I would have enough to buy all the baguettes in France.[/QUOTE]
why aren't you obsessed with feminism?
[QUOTE=sp00ks;40558847][URL]http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/11/071106083038.htm[/URL]
it's not just about offending people.[/QUOTE]
There are people that can find sexist/racist jokes funny and fine to say who don't think sexism/racism to be alright, but unfortunately this isn't true for other people.
But if someone is being sexist/racist towards someone then people need to tell them that doing that isn't ok.
[QUOTE=Shadaez;40562900]why aren't you obsessed with feminism?[/QUOTE]
1.) Because I'm not an obnoxiously liberal, women studies major.
2.) Because I have better things to do than claim everything's sexist.
3.) Because I don't feel the need to justify my shortcomings by ranting about "Patriarchy."
4.) Because the idea of privilege is a fucking joke.
5.) Because online social justice is just one big form of ego stroking.
6.) Because said social justice people consist 80% of fat dykes, and 20% men with aspergers.
7.) Because Max falls into the latter half, except with even more spaghetti.
8.) Because die cis scum.
9.) Because you guys have absolutely no sense of humor whatsoever.
Is that enough?
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