Arrival - A first contact movie where everything doesn't blow up. - General

This seems like a neat concept. One of the largest theoretical problems that humans could face with first contact of an extraterrestrial species is having absolutely zero common ground for communication, and it looks like that's what this movie is going to be centered around. [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMgyWT075KY[/media] Bonus related Vsauce video because I find this subject extremely interesting. [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCBlAAtJA54[/media]

I've read the [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Story_of_Your_Life]short story[/url] that this movie is based on. I liked it, but from what I remember it was pretty esoteric, thus I'm not sure how closely this movie will follow the original work.

So what's the explanation why the super-intelligent-space-traveling aliens wouldn't try to learn our language instead of trying to teach us theirs? Surely species so advanced would learn alien languages faster than less advanced species?

Should probably mention it's Dennis Villeneuve directing it. Guy has been on fire recently. [editline]17th August 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Silly Sil;50899994]So what's the explanation why the super-intelligent-space-traveling aliens wouldn't try to learn our language instead of trying to teach us theirs? Surely species so advanced would learn alien languages faster than less advanced species?[/QUOTE] Implying their language even operates like ours in any way. They could communicate through any number of ways not just vocally.

[QUOTE=spekter;50900080]Implying their language even operates like ours in any way. They could communicate through any number of ways not just vocally.[/QUOTE] Didn't you watch the trailer? Aliens are making markings on the glass and humans are trying to decipher it. I wouldn't have posted what I did hadn't this been the case.

It's like humans trying to learn caveman language. They'd use a series of grunts or whatever, real basic stuff which is nowhere near as complex as human language that has developed over thousands upon thousands of years. Same would be said for aliens. Their language is probably super advanced compared to our grunts. So yeah, it would be much easier for them to learn the basic gist of human language than it would be for us to learn theirs.

Is there anywhere I can read the original sci-fi story? If it's freeware that is.

From the short story: [sp]It's not just that they are more advanced. The aliens have a completely different perception of time than humans, and it is reflected in their language and understanding of math. Concepts that are intuitive for humans are hard to grasp for the aliens, and vice versa.[/sp]

[QUOTE=Silly Sil;50899994]So what's the explanation why the super-intelligent-space-traveling aliens wouldn't try to learn our language instead of trying to teach us theirs? Surely species so advanced would learn alien languages faster than less advanced species?[/QUOTE] From what I remember of the short story, they experience time differently to us, we Humans experience time sequentially, while the aliens experience time all at once, So basically the aliens written language is the only way they can communicate because they see the sentence all at once or something, the way we humans communicate, as in sequentially is almost impossible for them to understand, which is why we need to translate their language, because that's the only thing they can truly understand. The way they communicate is so alien to us and so advanced that learning the language and understanding it slowly effects your perception of time as well.

[QUOTE=loopoo;50900234]It's like humans trying to learn caveman language. They'd use a series of grunts or whatever, real basic stuff which is nowhere near as complex as human language that has developed over thousands upon thousands of years. Same would be said for aliens. Their language is probably super advanced compared to our grunts. So yeah, it would be much easier for them to learn the basic gist of human language than it would be for us to learn theirs.[/QUOTE] Good point, but it is possible that they are very advanced technologically speaking but not as much on the communication level. The aliens may not be that well prepared to meet other intelligent species.

[QUOTE=jonu67;50900515]From what I remember of the short story, they experience time differently to us, we Humans experience time sequentially, while the aliens experience time all at once, So basically the aliens written language is the only way they can communicate because they see the sentence all at once or something, the way we humans communicate, as in sequentially is almost impossible for them to understand, which is why we need to translate their language, because that's the only thing they can truly understand. The way they communicate is so alien to us and so advanced that learning the language and understanding it slowly effects your perception of time as well.[/QUOTE] Seems interesting. I'll give it a look. Thanks.

[QUOTE=jonu67;50900515]From what I remember of the short story, they experience time differently to us, we Humans experience time sequentially, while the aliens experience time all at once, So basically the aliens written language is the only way they can communicate because they see the sentence all at once or something, the way we humans communicate, as in sequentially is almost impossible for them to understand, which is why we need to translate their language, because that's the only thing they can truly understand. The way they communicate is so alien to us and so advanced that learning the language and understanding it slowly effects your perception of time as well.[/QUOTE] I can't really grasp the alien time thing. How do they see time all at once?

This movie seems pretty smart and its been quite awhile since we've had a smart first contact movie (See Contact (1997) ), looking forward to it.

[QUOTE=loopoo;50900560]I can't really grasp the alien time thing. How do they see time all at once?[/QUOTE] The short story really never describes exact mechanisms, but the crux of their language is that they perceive everything from a teleological standpoint rather than a casual standpoint; they communicate with end goals already known. All language is performative, a ritual. They know the future for... whatever reason: it's not stated how, but their language predicts the future with its structure, somehow. The narrator of the story dreams and knows about her future son and all the moments she will experience with him. The story even discusses the paradox of free will when someone knows the future; it is not touched by the narrator however because she says she feels 'obligated' to take history and her choices on the path she knows they should. Probably because of all the dreaming about the future moments with her son. [editline]17th August 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Nevec;50899731]I've read the [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Story_of_Your_Life]short story[/url] that this movie is based on. I liked it, but from what I remember it was pretty esoteric, thus I'm not sure how closely this movie will follow the original work.[/QUOTE] It looks like they added a few new events and added new stuff at the end.

[QUOTE=Silly Sil;50899994]So what's the explanation why the super-intelligent-space-traveling aliens wouldn't try to learn our language instead of trying to teach us theirs? Surely species so advanced would learn alien languages faster than less advanced species?[/QUOTE] Plot and Drama.

[QUOTE=Pvt. Martin;50900646]Plot and Drama.[/QUOTE] I mean you aren't wrong [I]technically[/I], but if you'd read through this thread you'd understand that the aliens do have a pretty big reason for not understanding our language. [QUOTE=kharkovus;50900600]It looks like they added a few new events and added new stuff at the end.[/QUOTE] Yeah there wasn't really anything to do with "war" or anything in the short story as the aliens are entirely peaceful and I'm assuming that's not going to change in the movie, so it'll probably have something to do with the human element in which they'll be going into how a first contact scenario effects humanity as a whole and this entire first contact scenario almost brings humanity to the brink of war with each other, because of disagreements, perhaps they weren't ready for something this big, or perhaps the aliens landed in specific areas and so other countries are mistrustful of what could happen, perhaps they'll be given an advantage? or something like that. This movie certainly looks like an interesting take on the short story though, hope they manage to stay faithful to it.

Looks fun, but some annoying whining sound effect repeats throughout the whole trailer

[QUOTE=Talishmar;50900785]Looks fun, but some annoying whining sound effect repeats throughout the whole trailer[/QUOTE] [video=youtube;u4iNWKfE-0k]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4iNWKfE-0k[/video] ???

[QUOTE=loopoo;50900234]It's like humans trying to learn caveman language. They'd use a series of grunts or whatever, real basic stuff which is nowhere near as complex as human language that has developed over thousands upon thousands of years. Same would be said for aliens. Their language is probably super advanced compared to our grunts. So yeah, it would be much easier for them to learn the basic gist of human language than it would be for us to learn theirs.[/QUOTE] I don't think languages get more "complex" as they evolve. Once you got past animal noises that is, and have an actual language that can form sentences and express abstract ideas, it doesn't really get more complex than that. I'm sure you could teach a modern language to a prehistoric homo sapiens sapiens without too much trouble. Aliens might have very different languages due to biological differences though. Like maybe they wouldn't be based on sound at all for instance.

[QUOTE=Kljunas;50901106]I don't think languages get more "complex" as they evolve. Once you got past animal noises that is, and have an actual language that can form sentences and express abstract ideas, it doesn't really get more complex than that. I'm sure you could teach a modern language to a prehistoric homo sapiens sapiens without too much trouble. Aliens might have very different languages due to biological differences though. Like maybe they wouldn't be based on sound at all for instance.[/QUOTE] I disagree. If you look at Amazonian / Tribal languages that have stayed the same for hundreds of years, they have very basic words and meanings. But when you look at the English language or - even worse - the Arabic language, it's so much more in-depth. I can personally attest to the fact that Arabic is a bitch to learn, because words can have multiple meanings depending on the context they were said or how they were used. Arabic Poetry is a bitch. Poetry is a pretty strong indicator to prove that modern language is a hell of a lot more complicated than ancient languages. Hell, even Egyptian hieroglyphics were simple compared to modern language / alphabet, no?

for anyone trying to grasp the concept, it's basically dr.manhattan in a more gimped form, that's what the aliens are in this story

[QUOTE=loopoo;50901523]I disagree. If you look at Amazonian / Tribal languages that have stayed the same for hundreds of years, they have very basic words and meanings. But when you look at the English language or - even worse - the Arabic language, it's so much more in-depth.[/QUOTE] Do you have any example of such a language? [QUOTE]I can personally attest to the fact that Arabic is a bitch to learn, because words can have multiple meanings depending on the context they were said or how they were used. Arabic Poetry is a bitch.[/QUOTE] Is there something I'm not getting or is that just like English? Homonyms have different meanings depending on context. In any case you can express the same things in English than you can in Arabic, and vice versa. [QUOTE]Poetry is a pretty strong indicator to prove that modern language is a hell of a lot more complicated than ancient languages. Hell, even Egyptian hieroglyphics were simple compared to modern language / alphabet, no?[/QUOTE] No I don't think they were? I mean take the Book of the Dead or something, I wouldn't call it simple. And the ancient Egyptians had poetry too. Also languages and writing systems are really separate things.

[QUOTE=loopoo;50901523]I disagree. If you look at Amazonian / Tribal languages that have stayed the same for hundreds of years, they have very basic words and meanings. But when you look at the English language or - even worse - the Arabic language, it's so much more in-depth. I can personally attest to the fact that Arabic is a bitch to learn, because words can have multiple meanings depending on the context they were said or how they were used. Arabic Poetry is a bitch. Poetry is a pretty strong indicator to prove that modern language is a hell of a lot more complicated than ancient languages. Hell, even Egyptian hieroglyphics were simple compared to modern language / alphabet, no?[/QUOTE] actually the inverse is true generally - the larger languages like english or spanish with a wide range and many diverse speakers tend to be much easier to learn than a small one with a restricted geographical range where the speakers all have a single dialect. if you went back in time, the first languages would be a horribly complex and inconsistent mess that were filled with numerous exceptions and had little order to them because they were pretty much developing from scratch to begin with. unlike making a language today, they had to basically create and differ between numerous sounds representing a vast array of material objects and eventually abstract concepts. the first written systems were much the same. a huge number of pictograms that eventually were reduced in number and became increasing abstract until they came to represent basic sounds and the basis of the alphabet

Kinda disappointed to see that the aliens seem to be cliche tentacle creatures, but this is still top of my list for things to see.

I was curious and read the short story that the film's based on. It's actually REALLY good and well-written, and a lot more emotional/human than you might think. [url]https://mathisgasser.files.wordpress.com/2014/12/ted-chiang_story-of-your-life_2000.pdf[/url] It's just 39 pages, really worth a read. One of the finer pieces of sci-fi I've read in a long while! Really hyped for the film now

All this time communication stuff is giving me Slaughterhouse 5 vibes

I really hope that an intelligence that is greater than ours would be able to handle first contact with us in a much more delicate manner. Landing ships all over the planet rather than doing something like trying to make radio contact first seems like a super heavy handed approach. We also are constantly sending out radio communications into space so I would also imagine that anything out there would have a head start on crossing the language barrier. I also like the idea of communicating with mathematics first, to establish some sort of common understanding. As far as first contact movies go Contact (1997) is still my favorite.

prime numbers, basic math, elements table, basic physics ... that would be always good start to establish common ground numbers and words for those would be first to translate next would be advanced math, physics, chemistry as those are same, everywhere in known universe (known to us) of course this might be problematic if the specie was inclining toward biology (aka everything including ships and machinery would be organic)

I think Vsauce talks about this? But the scariest thing to me is what if we're just like an anthill and they're humans? You would never even try to communicate with an ant because it's not even on the same level as yourself, what if we're so primitive to them that we aren't even seen as something they can speak with or like, we can't even comprehend the knowledge they have? I'm not sure if I'm making sense but I hope you guys understand what I mean.

[QUOTE=kariko;50906139]I think Vsauce talks about this? But the scariest thing to me is what if we're just like an anthill and they're humans? You would never even try to communicate with an ant because it's not even on the same level as yourself, what if we're so primitive to them that we aren't even seen as something they can speak with or like, we can't even comprehend the knowledge they have? I'm not sure if I'm making sense but I hope you guys understand what I mean.[/QUOTE] That's basically what Cosmic Horror is.