Shits on Skywind too much. The thing that makes Morrowind truly timeless is the insanely good atmosphere, characters and writing.
The combat in Morrowind was not primarily a "product of it's time" it was a sequence of bad decisions from people who had bags of experience with PnP/TT RPG's and just thought the systems would translate well over into a FPS-RPG hybrid.
All the stats being complex as they are doesn't make combat in any way more fun for the player. Half the things computated in the game, especially for NPC's cannot be seen properly and it's virtually impossible to put so much thought into how you're gonna work these systems in a real time first person action system.
You can say "Just make a good character and it works" all you want but from a logical/formulaic standpoint the system is not intuitive and works against players just starting out. A pointlessly hard difficulty curve at the start of any game, especially an RPG is the worst thing any designer could do.
It's not an impossible task of making the combat in Skyrim a bit more advance or at least seem like it's working with a decent amount of variables. But the concern with attempting such a task would be "how do we do this without making it pointlessly in-depth and not noticeable". This is something that wasn't considered too much during Morrowind's conception for one reason or another but the point still stands.
The argument about the depth of the magic system is practically redundant given all those things were more than possible in Oblivion either vanilla or with a few mods so by proxy achievable in Skyrim.
[editline]31st October 2014[/editline]
If you want a genuine example of just how crazy brilliant the writing and atmosphere in Morrowind truly is, read this:
[url]https://fallingawkwardly.wordpress.com/2010/08/29/the-metaphysics-of-morrowind-part-1/[/url]
Is this an analysis or a dramatic reading?
I wouldn't bash Skywind too hard. It's pretty much impossible to make a true remake without just graphically revamping Morrowind.
[QUOTE=Khaos92;46373079]Is this an analysis or a dramatic reading?
I wouldn't bash Skywind too hard. It's pretty much impossible to make a true remake without just graphically revamping Morrowind.[/QUOTE]
It's more than possible to at least mimic the stat-heavy nature of Morrowind with enough modding.
I recall a time where I was playing magic-centric characters in Oblivion and expanded my enchantment/alchemy mod range so much that I could spend an entire day just making things that did bizarre shit. Note that this was even before the script extender came into play.
[t]http://i.imgur.com/vl1R1F6.png[/t]
One of the skywind guys talked with him on the vid
While i feel he said it a little harshly, I get where he's coming from. I know my own love of Daggerfall (unnatural as it may be) comes from how every little piece of that game, from the art to the technical limitations to the tabletop-esque combat system, comes together to make a certain experience and a remake just wouldn't be the same.
Also I find it odd that I've never really gotten into Morrowind myself, it was "technically" my first TES game but I only really played for an hour as a kid then dropped it. Oblivion was the first one I actually played (pretty nonstop too), but then I got Daggerfall after it came free and liked it better than Oblivion and have since put 100s of hours into it.
For some reason the last time I revisited Morrowind it just didn't grip me, though I think that may have something to do with the graphics (yeah call me crazy, but I felt like the art-style of daggerfall was made to match the limitations of the engine which actually in turn makes it age fairly well because it feels more like a dark medieval cartoon, but Morrowind feels like it had beautiful art but things had to be toned down to be in line with the limitations of the time, like it was more realistic but the gfx couldn't match up which in turn made it age worse visually)
I'm thinking I should revisit it again though because every thing I hear about morrowind appeals to me so much. Maybe I should try it with a graphical overhaul? I don't so much mind the combat, I enjoy the steep difficulty (otherwise I wouldn't have played Daggerfall so much)
I really really want to play morrowind but it's just too hard
I spent 10$ on it and I'm pissed because the combat is the hardest thing to deal with. Playing a spellsword is just aggravating as all fuck. Even if you say "you just need to plan better" that doesn't make the combat not shitty.
the graphics are something I usually want to be enhanced. But with games like Arx Fatalis or Morrowind they... just simply aren't. They fit the atmosphere [U]extremely[/U] well. Morrowind has some of the most insane shit I've seen in a game period. The design is just PERFECT and I don't think I can stress that enough.
The magic system's a bit awkward. I really am not sure I like it at all but it's way better than skyrims outside of "cast chance" (which is just blegh)
The level design is both good and great. But the map system and journal system I kinda hate to death. It's pretty obnoxious when I have to navigate but it's made hard by "go left go right go on Ben street etc" rather than some few pointers. Skyrim just had a stupid map system where you instantly know SPECIFICALLY where to go and that is awful.
I've played Morrowind so much I'd have to try to make it hard. I keep hearing people who talk about how difficult it is, but I honestly don't understand it. But I probably take things like leveling and balanced progression for granted so much that it blinds me.
The Morrowind community is still crazy active for a game released in 2002, and I can't help but go back and play it once a year myself.
Another project worth mentioning is [url=https://openmw.org/en/]OpenMW[/url], which is a remake of the Morrowind engine. It is open source, cross-platform, compatible with existing Morrowind mods, has it's own construction set, and is very nearly complete.
[QUOTE=Explosions;46373372]I've played Morrowind so much I'd have to try to make it hard. I keep hearing people who talk about how difficult it is, but I honestly don't understand it. But I probably take things like leveling and balanced progression for granted so much that it blinds me.[/QUOTE]
for me it's not so much difficulty but a lack of direction for me and a lack of refined combat / magic
I want a hard game, even if its hard like dark souls, where I am driven to strive against all odds, but I want it to feel hard because it's properly made hard, not hard because it the combat system is based on bad ideas and worse ideas
[editline]31st October 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=jalb;46374538]The Morrowind community is still crazy active for a game released in 2002, and I can't help but go back and play it once a year myself.
Another project worth mentioning is [url=https://openmw.org/en/]OpenMW[/url], which is a remake of the Morrowind engine. It is open source, cross-platform, compatible with existing Morrowind mods, has it's own construction set, and is very nearly complete.[/QUOTE]
Even Doom has an active community, actually. So this isn't surprising at all.
Yeah, Morrowind was probably the most engrossing RPG I have ever played. The crafting and spell making system was so incredibly fun and the amount of quests and landscape variety was insane. It's no surprise every Elderscrolls game after has been a huge disappointment.
What a lot of people need to understand is that Morrowind is great because of the world. The gameplay is alright, although quite dated by today's standards, but you could see the works of MK really shine. His attention to detail in every bit of that crazy world of his really shows, from the simple furnishings on the robes of the workers at the Tribunal temple, which references scripture within said world. It's his ability to write a completely unique world, and then keep it working by its own rules. If you read any works by MK, you'll feel crazy, but once you understand it, you'll realize the genius that's actually there.
It's why things like Oblivion or Skyrim weren't very entertaining or engrossing. MK didn't return to the sequels, although he did basic stuff for Skyrim, but the main plot meant very little to anything in the grand scale of things. Killing Alduin was one of the worst choices anybody could make, because it meant time would cease to repeat in different lines, thus ending the world once and for all. So for people like me, Skyrim's plot means that I have to doom everything because some old guys want to be all mystical and shit with a language that they aren't even entitled to use, because the Nords abused it and broke time & shit.
Thanks a lot Nords.
[QUOTE=K1ngo64;46374644]Yeah, Morrowind was probably the most engrossing RPG I have ever played. The crafting and spell making system was so incredibly fun and the amount of quests and landscape variety was insane. [b]It's no surprise every Elderscrolls game after has been a huge disappointment.[/b][/QUOTE]
Except for many of us that may be Oblivion or Skyrim at some point.
[I]...nothing will take my Oblivion experience from me.[/I]
morrowind will forever be the magnum opus of bethesda
to me, modding it with a new combat system, or god forbid a new engine, is like going in to the louvre and undress mona lisa
just enjoy the mystery behind the smile
Morrowind was my first Elder Scrolls game and I kinda wish it wasn't.
I ended up with a really bad pirated copy about 10 years ago, a single unlabelled CD in one those white CD sleeves, given to me by my father who got it from a friend at work. He had no idea what the game was, but thought I would enjoy it, I believe he thought it was a sort of hack-n-slash. His friend had highly recommended it. I had no idea who or what Morrowind was, but that was about to change.
I remember the countless times I woke up on that boat never getting bored. I had very little idea what each stat did or how/why it affected me. The first time I booted the game up I didn't even know about silt striders I walked all the way to Balmora, dying many many times. I felt immense relief to be in this vibrant city.
I remember trying to figure out who I had to talk to, trying to figure out what I was supposed to do. I remember downloading countless mods, killing everyone, stealing everything, severing the thread of prophecy countless times. I remember finally finding the construction set and thinking how great everything is going to be. I remember not being able to access any asset for some reason and being forced to use bits and pieces from mods to build a room. I remember figuring out that the actual game is supposed to come with two CDs, one for all the assets I've been missing. I remember starting to learn 3D modelling just so I can put my own weapons into the game. I remember those models being horribly scaled and looking ridiculous. I remember having fun.
Now I really don't know whether I'm looking back through rose tinted glasses. I don't know my ignorance of games at that point in my life made me enjoy Morrowind as much as I did. But the point still stands, I love Morrowind and no other Elder Scrolls game has even come close to making me feel the same way. I said I kinda wished Morrowind was not my first ES game. That's because I can't look at the newer games objectively anymore. Skyrim, while fun to a point, seems forced. There is something lacking that I just cannot put my finger on.
Or maybe it is just the lack of levitate spells.
Was thinking about the combat system and how many people hate it, and also was thinking about Daggerfall and why not as many people hate that combat system despite being kind of similar.
I'm thinking it may be because Daggerfall had a ton of different attack moves based on how you swiped the mouse (stab, overhead swing, diagonal swing, horizontal swing, all x2 from left or right except stab).
The overhead swing and horizontal slashes did the most damage, but had a really low chance to hit unless you were proficient in that weapon skill, while the stab had a really high chance to hit but low damage, and horizontal slashes were equally split between chance and damage %.
This meant that even a character with a starter weapon skill could still hit enemies with a stab regularly, only missing occasionally if at all, which meant you never had the whole Morrowind "hitting nothing" syndrome unless you happened to encounter a high level creature with good dodging at a low level. You could simply avoid the attacks that would miss often until you were good enough to use your full range of swings proficiently.
I think if Morrowind had this system people perhaps wouldn't look back as harshly on the combat as they do, most people I've talked to who go play Daggerfall for the first time don't seem to have issue with the combat, and i think if they had used the same system it would've maybe let them more successfully use DnD-style dice rolls without as much irritation in the gameplay.
[QUOTE=Bloodshot12;46377514]Was thinking about the combat system and how many people hate it, and also was thinking about Daggerfall and why not as many people hate that combat system despite being kind of similar.
I'm thinking it may be because Daggerfall had a ton of different attack moves based on how you swiped the mouse (stab, overhead swing, diagonal swing, horizontal swing, all x2 from left or right except stab).
The overhead swing and horizontal slashes did the most damage, but had a really low chance to hit unless you were proficient in that weapon skill, while the stab had a really high chance to hit but low damage, and horizontal slashes were equally split between chance and damage %.
This meant that even a character with a starter weapon skill could still hit enemies with a stab regularly, only missing occasionally if at all, which meant you never had the whole Morrowind "hitting nothing" syndrome unless you happened to encounter a high level creature with good dodging at a low level. You could simply avoid the attacks that would miss often until you were good enough to use your full range of swings proficiently.
I think if Morrowind had this system people perhaps wouldn't look back as harshly on the combat as they do, most people I've talked to who go play Daggerfall for the first time don't seem to have issue with the combat, and i think if they had used the same system it would've maybe let them more successfully use DnD-style dice rolls without as much irritation in the gameplay.[/QUOTE]
IIRC MGE XE has a built in optional Daggerfall combat mod
Damn I tried to play morrowind but it was already to fucked with shitty mods. This video inspired me to play it again, I've never played it properly, my builds have always been ass so I've given up early on.
[editline]31st October 2014[/editline]
gotta reinstall I guess
[QUOTE=Durrsly;46378514]IIRC MGE XE has a built in optional Daggerfall combat mod[/QUOTE]
I know what I'm installing then
EDIT:
does it actually do chances to hit based on the swing you do like DF or is it just mouse control?
[QUOTE=minilandstan;46375347]Killing Alduin was one of the worst choices anybody could make, because it meant time would cease to repeat in different lines, thus ending the world once and for all. So for people like me, Skyrim's plot means that I have to doom everything because some old guys want to be all mystical and shit with a language that they aren't even entitled to use, because the Nords abused it and broke time & shit.
Thanks a lot Nords.[/QUOTE]
Nah, Alduin is banished from the world forever but Arngeir and Paarthurnax theorize he may return in the future to become World-Eater again so it's up in the air right now.
[QUOTE=Arc Nova;46379002]Nah, Alduin is banished from the world forever but Arngeir and Paarthurnax theorize he may return in the future to become World-Eater again so it's up in the air right now.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I don't know where minilandstan is getting this crap about breaking time by killing Alduin from.
Alduin was Akatosh's first dragon, and his main purpose was to be Akatosh's eyes and ears on Nirn, and if need be, to end its existence. Instead, Alduin and the dragons enslaved man, and blah blah blah, he's overthrown and cast through time.
Alduin sets out to destroy the world, as is technically his function, but it wasn't by will of Akatosh, so a Dragonborn is summoned, or created, depending on how you look at it, by Akatosh to stop him.
Alduin is now back in Aetherius, where Akatosh probably Divine grounded him. But he's still technically alive and could come back and fulfill his purpose if ever the need arises.
God he sounds like a twat the way he goes on about Morrowind. I also can't stand how he acts like you have to be stupid to dislike the combat system. Going on for five minutes about how complex it is for the game to calculate a single swing doesn't make it a good combat system.
its the nostalgia
[QUOTE=jalb;46374538]The Morrowind community is still crazy active for a game released in 2002, and I can't help but go back and play it once a year myself.
Another project worth mentioning is [URL="https://openmw.org/en/"]OpenMW[/URL], which is a remake of the Morrowind engine. It is open source, cross-platform, compatible with existing Morrowind mods, has it's own construction set, and is very nearly complete.[/QUOTE]
When and if OpenMW implements proper cooperative, I'm doing a run through with my significant other. Not negotiable.
[QUOTE=Janus Vesta;46379283]God he sounds like a twat the way he goes on about Morrowind. I also can't stand how he acts like you have to be stupid to dislike the combat system. Going on for five minutes about how complex it is for the game to calculate a single swing doesn't make it a good combat system.[/QUOTE]
He also made this video, I think he was just sugar-coating Morrowind a bit this time.
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LEI4yS7sFEw[/media]
I think Morrowind's technical limitations gave the game a level of mystery and magic that keeps people obsessed with it. Of the last 3 titles, Morrowind is the only Elder Scrolls game that's actually difficult (mostly due to it's awful combat and magic systems, and how slowly skills level up), and the lack of fast-travel, quest markers, and even a sprint function means the game takes a lot longer to play, so everything feels like more of an accomplishment.
---
Oh snippety, this is a can of worms that's been battered and bruised for years now.
[QUOTE=Passwordddd;46379912]He also made this video, I think he was just sugar-coating Morrowind a bit this time.
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LEI4yS7sFEw[/media]
I think Morrowind's technical limitations gave the game a level of mystery and magic that keeps people obsessed with it. Of the last 3 titles, Morrowind is the only Elder Scrolls game that's actually difficult (mostly due to it's awful combat and magic systems, and how slowly skills level up), and the lack of fast-travel, quest markers, and even a sprint function means the game takes a lot longer to play, so everything feels like more of an accomplishment.[/QUOTE]
Watching this video, now I want to know, is Skywind going to have those generic dialog choices, or are they going to add on to it?
[QUOTE=Intoxicated Spy;46380243]Watching this video, now I want to know, is Skywind going to have those generic dialog choices, or are they going to add on to it?[/QUOTE]
I would stop worrying about those things since you can just mod that in
[editline]31st October 2014[/editline]
And I don't think they will since they have enough lines to voice already
Morrowind is always going to hold a high level of love in my game collection. I originally played through it on the original Xbox years ago. It was an experience you not only had, but it was one you invested your very self into. A lot of games nowadays feel very limited because the developers are trying to guide players along a string of plot points and skill progression that always remains at the back of your mind. I don't think I ever recall having that feeling in Morrowind. In my opinion the way the plot unfolded and how your character progressed felt more like a personal journey rather than a mechanical one.
I suppose what I mean was that you as a player felt like you were embarking on the quests, exploring cities and progressing in skill as you would in the real world. You didn't have this nagging fact in the back of your mind that you have to progress in the story to make progress in your overall character's skills and impact on the game's world.
The combat although irritating wasn't terrible like Oblivion's. I'm a bit biased though because I like the Table Top style combat; it has a timeless appeal in my opinion that sort of brings a certain strategy to the skill development of your character. I can understand the creator of the video in the OP not being too fond of the real time combat in most games. Although other the years sword play in real time combat games has become much more fluid it just seems too simplified.
Regardless, I still love each Elder Scrolls game because they deliver a unique experience; Morrowind is just one that left that experience very well ingrained into our memories. I look forward to see how the Skywind project turns out, it looks like it will deliver its own promising memorable experience.
[QUOTE=LennyPenny;46380315]I would stop worrying about those things since you can just mod that in
[editline]31st October 2014[/editline]
And I don't think they will since they have enough lines to voice already[/QUOTE]
Well, if its too much, maybe later, I, or someone with a lot more time, could get the people who are voice acting for Skywind together, and make them less generic, if that is still a problem.
[QUOTE=CLungcancer;46378794]Damn I tried to play morrowind but it was already to fucked with shitty mods. This video inspired me to play it again, I've never played it properly, my builds have always been ass so I've given up early on.
[editline]31st October 2014[/editline]
gotta reinstall I guess[/QUOTE]
Try playing with as few conflicting mods as possible. It's one of those games that's fantastic vanilla, but made better with the right mods. It's like seasoning food; too much can overdo it and ruin the dish.
I recommend getting the Enhanced sounds and textures as well as the expanded Tamriel mod and going from there.
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