[video=youtube;RvhdU6p1XhI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RvhdU6p1XhI[/video]
Basically sums up my problems with Frostfall+RNaD/iNeed in Skyrim and Survival Mode in Fallout 4.
They're not realistic depictions of the physiological needs or limits of humans in any way.
this entire video is why i hate hunger systems and survival games in general
so tired of building or doing something but it tells me im gonna fucking die every 5 minutes
the only exception is like state of decay, which is mentioned in the video
I think Frostfall is a well done "survival" concept, since it's not a constantly nagging meter, it's a very environmental and preparation thing. I also found that New Vegas' Hardcore mode, while still nagging meters, seemed to make the meters go down slow enough to not be a massive annoyance. Chesko has an [URL="http://skyrimsurvival.com/2016/07/07/the-design-of-last-seed/"]interesting blog post[/URL] about designing a fun survival mod for skyrim.
I remember hunger systems in gmod rp
I think that a poo system was eventually created
tbh i need to run a gmod server with that for hilarity sake
[editline]1st August 2016[/editline]
don't starve FOR SURE does survival right
The Long Dark is the only survival game I like because the physiological needs you need to attend to are realistic, make sense and don't just go down all the time based on some arbitrary value. It's all based on your actions and how you manage your days.
[QUOTE=Wii60;50812452]this entire video is why i hate hunger systems and survival games in general
so tired of building or doing something but it tells me im gonna fucking die every 5 minutes
the only exception is like state of decay, which is mentioned in the video[/QUOTE]Yeah, honestly, survival games just got boring as shit. It has become a tacked on system to make your features list look bigger and give false depth.
And weapon condition is literally the worst thing ever by now. I mean, at least in something like old RPG or MMOs it tended to take a while of fighting and getting your ass kicked for a weapon or armor to break. And when it did, its just a matter of finding a craftsman who could repair your shit. It wasn't "Well this special weapon I've crafted is going to break in ten minutes and its gone for ever, thereby just being a waste of resources." With high-quality tools and weapons in these games it eventually becomes a case of "Well, I can't use this normally because it'd be wasted, so I best shove it in a box until eventually I really need it." But instead it just becomes a case where you have really good gear all stuffed away on an "I'll need this later." basis. It takes up space needlessly while you either never need it or you've gotten good enough with dealing with the shit tier stuff that you can do without it or often times you're too far away from where it is stashed to actually put it to use. "This big enemy is keeping me from this resource but I'll have to make a half hour trek back to camp to get the weapon to deal with them. And if I do that, by the time I get the weapon the resource will have despawned/someone else will have taken it/I'll have to go in the opposite direction to stuff my face because running for half an hour means I'm now near fatally starved and dehydrated."
I used to love seeing every new "Survival game" that was on the market because I always thought, "Maybe this will be the one! Maybe now it'll be more about survival within a world where I can grow my character and their life and not about endlessly filling up meters." I love survival stuff; books and movies about zombie apocalypses are some of my favorites. I collect survival stuff and read through survival guides both real and Max Brooks-tier just because the entire concept is fascinating to me. But now if a game markets itself as "Survival" or lists survival features I just roll my eyes and let out a sad sigh and drop my expectations of the game tremendously. As someone who loves survival stuff, survival games are basically a turnoff for me now and I look for whatever I can to circumvent the survival elements when I encounter them.
[editline]1st August 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=J!NX;50812590]I remember hunger systems in gmod rp
I think that a poo system was eventually created
tbh i need to run a gmod server with that for hilarity sake
[editline]1st August 2016[/editline]
don't starve FOR SURE does survival right[/QUOTE]I actively hate when survival games have some stupid, "bowel" need that is literally just needing to find a toilet or some shit. When I played Ark before refunding it, the fact that my character was just shitting regularly like they had a fucking disease was one of the big things that turned me off from it. It wasn't improving the game for me, it wasn't serving a purpose. It was fucking youtube bait and literal shit for thirteen year old brats to go, "LOOK, I SHIT! HUR HUR!"
regarding hunger systems, been playing the new starbound release and while I enjoy the challenge/worry of 'if you die, you drop your shit and lose money' portion of the survival difficulty, but the food system is fucking awful. Decays way too fast, and food items don't natively stack so your tiny bag fills up with random seedlings and plantlife before you realize you're not actually collecting edibles because the bag's been full
installed a mod for food stacking, then a mod for slowing the hunger system down by a longshot, and it still felt way too pressured and took me away from the fun of the game. Ended up editing my character to 'casual' difficulty, which presents no risk in death besides having to walk a bit if you want to go back where you were
thank god for casual mode in starbound
honestly i want to try my crack at a survival esque game that has a hunger system that isnt bad but eh
I'd much rather see hunger, thirst and fatigue as sort of bonus multipliers than requirements. Like how sleeping in Fallout gives you a temporary boost.
One of the few games that sorta did survival right is STALKER series (with exception for Shadow of Chernobyl's approach of losing health while hungry - Call of Pripyat improved it by having it merely slow down the sprinting energy recovery reduction), where the only thing you really needed, was food (although some mods added sleeping, which could work if done right). And you would rarely not eat, since food actually recovered your health and was rather plentiful. There were even bandages to stop bleeding, but once again, they were plentful, did not take you out of the game to find/buy more of them, and did not burden you.
Another game that did food right, would be Monster Hunter - if you don't eat for some time, your stamina bar would decrease, and you would not be able to run/swim/evade for long. And to make food, all you really need is to kill a rather weak herbivore and roast them on the spot - you don't have to run back to town to get more supplies, and it's something true to many of the game's items - most consumables could be made on the spot. You ran out of potions? Go find some mushrooms and herbs, and you're back in the game. Anything else that you find while searching for them, goes to help you out later.
In those games, the "survival" aspects have an actual impact on the gameplay aside from the never ending nagging for more food, drink, and sleep. The thing is, most survival games have the bars there for the sake of being there, so once you run out of one, you're screwed - but actually fulfilling those needs would bring you nothing of value. And unless they game is specifically trying to limit the player akin to The Ship, where those bars set the player to be vulnerable, all you are doing, is taking player away from the meat of the game. Even worse is that majority of those games don't really have meat to them: All they have is raw consumption, and if I wanted a consumption simulator, I'd just fire up Victoria 2.
How about a game where there are NO meters and the underlying system is completely invisible to the player, along with realistically handling how human physiology works. By obscuring the meters and making them function at realistic rates that deplete realistically than simply over time or just because of actions, it'll avoid all the cumbersomeness of modern survival games. Fallout 4 ALMOST got it right, if not for having the visible status-effects that create the same psychological effects as bars.
You will know you are tired when your FOV begins to subtly get lower over time and your actions get slight delays to them (Offset by Adrenaline however). Likewise, fatigue isn't just something that is decreased by X amount per Y hours of rest - Either get your full eight hours or take periodic naps throughout the day in preparation for a shorter sleep. Sleeping too long or too often will make you weak from poor exercise.
You will know you are hungry when you are staggered by pain and muscle cramps more easily and show signs of weakness - Likewise making you tired faster. Overeating will make you slow and restrict your movement. This and thirst should only deplete at 1/10th the normal rate when asleep. Because, you know, people who are properly nourished tend to uh, y'know, not be on the brink of starvation and dehyrdation every time they wake up.
You will know you are thirsty when bloom lighting starts to become slowly more and more annoying to simulate a headache, along with the color saturation of water increasing more and more to catch the your attention. Overdrinking will fatigue you and make you short of breath.
tl;dr The Getaway if it were a survival game.
I like stranded
I'm admittedly pretty biased. I like doing survival stuff. I like being challenged constantly to pull of a bunch of shit.. It's stressful but in a way I just find engaging and weirdly relaxing a lot of the time.
That said, there needs to be a balance. It's really annoying to be constantly worrying, never given any down time. It's also annoying to be given needs that are kind of just inappropriate.
Give you an example of what I mean, I wouldn't play Fallout 4 without survival mode, ever. The need to eat, sleep, drink, and manage radiation levels are all things I think can be key in selling a post apocalypse game. Not necessarily essential, but they really help sell the theme. However, when I'm given a character who really shouldn't have to worry about this, suppose a sci-fi soldier, it becomes weird and out of place.
It's a weird balance to make. Never being let off the leash will inevitably become too much for anyone, but never having to worry about it turns it in to a meaningless chore. New Vegas is a prime example of why this is, hell, even Fallout 4 falls victim to this. In New Vegas you had hardcore mode, but food, water, caps, and stimpaks are so plentiful it just turns in to nagging. It's not challenging you to survive, it's asking you to hit tab and click on the food button every now and then. Fallout 4 has a good groundbase with strong first impressions but it's survival mode too becomes lacking. You accrue a ridiculous number of stimpaks, it is extremely easy within days of starting the game on survival mode to never have to worry about water again, and if you plant a few crops food ceases to be a problem as well, and it's all back to being a chore. Oh, and the bobby pins. You get so many bobby pins.
Whenever you don't give a shit I start to wonder why you're even bothering to include it. Like, ammo counters for instance. Limited ammo is in virtually every game with a gun, and we sort of take it for granted, because I mean, of course we'd have it, right? But in many games, even ones that have nothing to do with survival, there is essentially no fucking point in having ammo because you will get so much of it you might as well have infinite. Especially in Fallout. Why even give me limited ammo if you're going to give me literally thousands of bullets for every kind of gun, Fallout 4?
Longevity is a big problem here even in games that do limit your resources. In most survival games, you will eventually win. You will eventually have a big surplus of resources and survival will become a chore rather than a challenge. That's why your game needs to have some actual meat in it so that you don't just end up in a state of "Well, nothing to do anymore really, guess I'm just done because this is boring." No victory screen, no satisfying ending, nothing. Just boredom. When a game lacks substance, this really betrays how much substance it lacks.
I guess the happy balance for me is a needs system that I have to engage in [i]ON OCCASION[/I], that doesn't dominate general gameplay. I shouldn't have to stop for a breather and a sausage roll every five seconds. At the same time, don't make me have to stop everything because I'm thirsty. Fallout 4 experiments by giving you debuffs to your shit if you don't manage it, but you can continue without it. So I'm not going to fall over dead if I don't eat, but I am going to suffer heavily for not eating. I like that, because it means if I'm in the middle of something important I can just choose to accept the consequences of not having food rather than not having a choice at all. And it can make for some intense moments where you're stuck in a huge stretch of enemies, suffering from all kinds of problems that you can only barely deal with, but you pull through it and you feel like you've been through a real ordeal. That's survival [I]adding[/I] to gameplay instead of dominating it.
Funnily enough I think Minecraft gets the survival thing right, it's reasonably easy to upkeep the food meter and sources for upkeep are normally easy to obtain. I do feel it falls too fast and losing health is too harsh a penalty.
Another example I can think of is [del]Facepunch's Favorite game;[/del] Wurm Online. The food meter can be depleted several times, resulting in actions taking up more stamina at higher levels of hunger, but losing all hunger won't kill you. Drinking is also involved but it's very easy to fill if there's water nearby.
In my opinion, eating/drinking should be a reason for the player to get out of their shelter and explore rather then something that keeps bugging you which is basically what state of decay did well.
I feel that survival games need more purpose, most games are just dropping you in some world and the goal is just "survive as long as possible!!!" rather then something like Don't Starve where you progress in technology to further explore different worlds and make your life easier.
I like survival mechanics but it's the immersion that completely makes or breaks it, in my opinion. If the game manages to put you in that gritty survival/all-alone-against-the-world mindset then heavy-handed survival elements such as hunger can have a positive impact on the experience. I consider Wurm Online such an example.
However, in an action game that's mainly focused on a lot of non-survival mechanics a hunger mechanic can really piledrive the pacing. Such features do well to take the back seat in such games. STALKER is a good example of this; no hunger bar, only an small icon that pops up if you ever go too long without healing using food reminding you that your natural recovery has ceased.
[QUOTE=certified;50814082]How about a game where there are NO meters and the underlying system is completely invisible to the player, along with realistically handling how human physiology works. By obscuring the meters and making them function at realistic rates that deplete realistically than simply over time or just because of actions, it'll avoid all the cumbersomeness of modern survival games. Fallout 4 ALMOST got it right, if not for having the visible status-effects that create the same psychological effects as bars.
You will know you are tired when your FOV begins to subtly get lower over time and your actions get slight delays to them (Offset by Adrenaline however). Likewise, fatigue isn't just something that is decreased by X amount per Y hours of rest - Either get your full eight hours or take periodic naps throughout the day in preparation for a shorter sleep. Sleeping too long or too often will make you weak from poor exercise.
You will know you are hungry when you are staggered by pain and muscle cramps more easily and show signs of weakness - Likewise making you tired faster. Overeating will make you slow and restrict your movement. This and thirst should only deplete at 1/10th the normal rate when asleep. Because, you know, people who are properly nourished tend to uh, y'know, not be on the brink of starvation and dehyrdation every time they wake up.
You will know you are thirsty when bloom lighting starts to become slowly more and more annoying to simulate a headache, along with the color saturation of water increasing more and more to catch the your attention. Overdrinking will fatigue you and make you short of breath.
tl;dr The Getaway if it were a survival game.[/QUOTE]
What is with people and meters?
You and the player character are two separate entities. You use a GUI to bridge the gap between the two.
You know you are hungry LONG BEFORE YOU SHOW NEGATIVE EFFECTS. Likewise for most other things. A bar allows this to be conveyed to the player without using some sort of negative effect.
[QUOTE=certified;50814082]How about a game where there are NO meters and the underlying system is completely invisible to the player, along with realistically handling how human physiology works. By obscuring the meters and making them function at realistic rates that deplete realistically than simply over time or just because of actions, it'll avoid all the cumbersomeness of modern survival games. Fallout 4 ALMOST got it right, if not for having the visible status-effects that create the same psychological effects as bars.
You will know you are tired when your FOV begins to subtly get lower over time and your actions get slight delays to them (Offset by Adrenaline however). Likewise, fatigue isn't just something that is decreased by X amount per Y hours of rest - Either get your full eight hours or take periodic naps throughout the day in preparation for a shorter sleep. Sleeping too long or too often will make you weak from poor exercise.
You will know you are hungry when you are staggered by pain and muscle cramps more easily and show signs of weakness - Likewise making you tired faster. Overeating will make you slow and restrict your movement. This and thirst should only deplete at 1/10th the normal rate when asleep. Because, you know, people who are properly nourished tend to uh, y'know, not be on the brink of starvation and dehyrdation every time they wake up.
You will know you are thirsty when bloom lighting starts to become slowly more and more annoying to simulate a headache, along with the color saturation of water increasing more and more to catch the your attention. Overdrinking will fatigue you and make you short of breath.
tl;dr The Getaway if it were a survival game.[/QUOTE]
There's something to be said about games that hand-hold the player, but removing literally all relevant HUD components will make the players more confused than immersed. It would be hard to identify what part of the system you have to deal with, or what is being affected.
[QUOTE=GunFox;50815777]What is with people and meters?
You and the player character are two separate entities. You use a GUI to bridge the gap between the two.
You know you are hungry LONG BEFORE YOU SHOW NEGATIVE EFFECTS. Likewise for most other things. A bar allows this to be conveyed to the player without using some sort of negative effect.[/QUOTE]
Having lots of bars and numbers on your HUD isn't exactly immersive, the more things can be conveyed to player naturally, through stuff actually happening or reacting on the screen, the less you are constantly reminded that your "hunger" is merely a decreasing number in a computer, breaking the illusion. Ideally you want to be able to convey all relevant information with as few HUD elements as possible, leaving only immediate essential stuff like Health and Stamina actually being constantly displayed (or when they change).
If you want a survival game I'd recommend Neoscavanger, it avoids most of the pitfalls and remains challenging, with a good pace.
[QUOTE=Zang-Pog;50817492]Everybody seems to be stuck with the idea that all the stats, bars and other things have to be on the actual in-game hud which isn't the case at all.
Have something like a futuristic watch on your characters wrist which will measure things like blood sugar and pressure, heartrate and whatever else vital information you can give the player that way[/QUOTE]
I really loved the upside-down wristwatch in Metro 2033 displaying visibility and gas mask filter time, very clever way to relay this through 3d graphical elements without any overlay.
[QUOTE=Im Crimson;50817516]I really loved the upside-down wristwatch in Metro 2033 displaying visibility and gas mask filter time, very clever way to relay this through 3d graphical elements without any overlay.[/QUOTE]
And realistic too. If your filters are shit and need to be timed, it makes sense to do that on your watch.
Way I see it, a way to solve part of these problems would be tweaking the requirements so they're not SO nagging as to be unrealistic and irritating (being hungry again 5 minutes after shoving a whole roast chicken down your throat), but not so loose that it takes an afternoon of real time to go from satiated to starving. In this, it's likely a matter of balancing the numbers to be just right, just like Goldilocks.
As for the visual nagging aspect, rather than have the meters on-screen all the time, maybe have simple indicative icons phase in when you pass a certain threshold, and have your hunger/thirst/sleepiness/blood pressure/masturbation needs/whatever be expressed by pulling up an easily-accessed "character sheet" to see just how dire your needs have become, sort of like how Dark Corners of the Earth did its first aid system. Maybe more subtle and appropriate indicators too, like hearing the growling of the avatar's stomach, or the occasional yawn, to naturally indicate that you might need a snack or a kip.
With such systems working in tandem, you wouldn't be "hassled" quite so often or as abrasively as is typical of many survival games, and the screen would be clearer for most of your playtime, with the periods of maintenance being fewer and further between than they otherwise would be.
jesawyers mod for Fallout New Vegas had pretty good need management since it primarily just lowered your carry weight to a third of what it was before and made combat significantly more painful. It was more about balancing a decent amount of rations, medicine, weapon ammo, and whatever misc items you had.
You weren't exactly fighting to survive or micromanaging needs but it helped you feel like you were actually taking the right precautions to a trek across the wasteland.
[QUOTE=certified;50814082]How about a game where there are NO meters and the underlying system is completely invisible to the player, along with realistically handling how human physiology works. By obscuring the meters and making them function at realistic rates that deplete realistically than simply over time or just because of actions, it'll avoid all the cumbersomeness of modern survival games. Fallout 4 ALMOST got it right, if not for having the visible status-effects that create the same psychological effects as bars.
You will know you are tired when your FOV begins to subtly get lower over time and your actions get slight delays to them (Offset by Adrenaline however). Likewise, fatigue isn't just something that is decreased by X amount per Y hours of rest - Either get your full eight hours or take periodic naps throughout the day in preparation for a shorter sleep. Sleeping too long or too often will make you weak from poor exercise.
You will know you are hungry when you are staggered by pain and muscle cramps more easily and show signs of weakness - Likewise making you tired faster. Overeating will make you slow and restrict your movement. This and thirst should only deplete at 1/10th the normal rate when asleep. Because, you know, people who are properly nourished tend to uh, y'know, not be on the brink of starvation and dehyrdation every time they wake up.
You will know you are thirsty when bloom lighting starts to become slowly more and more annoying to simulate a headache, along with the color saturation of water increasing more and more to catch the your attention. Overdrinking will fatigue you and make you short of breath.
tl;dr The Getaway if it were a survival game.[/QUOTE]
There's a rare DNA disease that I can't remember the name of. Lack of chromosome 6 or something? I think you have it. Might want to get that checked out.
Normal people can give you a rating of how hungry/thirsty/fatigued/sleepy they are. Most people can feel their own bodies. In real life these things are non-visual, but you have these "meters". The only way to convey this on visual+sound medium without going stupid is through a visual meter.
After I eat a sandwich in the morning I can tell by my bio-meter if I need another one or not, I don't gauge my hunger by muscle pain or some shit. What the fuck. Go visit a doctor.
[highlight](User was banned for this post ("Flaming" - Novangel))[/highlight]
I personally got no problems with hunger and thirst bars. What I love about survival mechanics is how it turns mundane things such as making a sustainable food source or finding water that would otherwise just be some scenery or token RP element into something more meaningful and with consequence. Some might find the bars nagging or annoying, but I think if you just have a "well fed" bonus or something, they might as well just be have potions. An example that comes to mind is finding an underground river in Dwarf Fortress, back before there were cave layers.
Snake Eater did food well in that you needed it to regen health and getting hungry meant your stomach rumbled and gave away your position. It also made you careful with what you eat and it gave you a reason to interact with the world.
The Ship also did it well since it made the players do something other than try to maintain line of sight with their target
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;50819066]There's a rare DNA disease that I can't remember the name of. Lack of chromosome 6 or something? I think you have it. Might want to get that checked out.
Normal people can give you a rating of how hungry/thirsty/fatigued/sleepy they are. Most people can feel their own bodies. In real life these things are non-visual, but you have these "meters". The only way to convey this on visual+sound medium without going stupid is through a visual meter.
After I eat a sandwich in the morning I can tell by my bio-meter if I need another one or not, I don't gauge my hunger by muscle pain or some shit. What the fuck. Go visit a doctor.[/QUOTE]
Well shit son, tell me about this superpower of yours to see EXACTLY how satiated, hydrated, and tired you are in percentage points.
[QUOTE=certified;50826483]Well shit son, tell me about this superpower of yours to see EXACTLY how satiated, hydrated, and tired you are in percentage points.[/QUOTE]
Alright so you can't tell that you're hungry? You start eating when you get muscle clamps?
You can't tell that you're thirsty? You start drinking when you experience dizziness, palpitations and fainting?
You can't tell if you are tired? You go to bed when you can't keep your eyes open and you are falling asleep while standing?
Normal people can tell more or less how thirsty/hungry/tired they are. Nobody said [B]EXACTLY[/B]. This isn't a superpower.
Seriously go see a doctor.
Problem is that visual meters are an easy way out and often come with the fact that they're meant to be a primary focus for the player, thus why they're often so short and constantly needing to be refilled. Without actual gauges and meters verifying your character's needs and conditions, you need visual and audio cues. This is all theoretical on my part; a stomach grumbling could, for example, be an early warning sign of hunger, followed in due time by less stamina and decreasing capability. Sleepiness is your character perhaps yawning, or their vision sort of having a little slack or blurriness to indicate that their head isn't all there. Thirst is probably the trickiest to figure, I can't actually think of a good idea for it. But this sort of stuff takes effort and careful balancing, something a lot of survival game devs just don't feel like doing.
But then I was never much of a fan of the genre. Things like character's physical and mental needs should be supplementary to the experience in a beneficial way for gameplay, as Jim says in the video; I don't really go for games that are pretty much all about the survival and maintaining your various needs ontop of your health too.
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